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When I read your post, I wondered when it became the responsibility of the church - I guess that you mean the 'institution' - elders, deacons, ministers - to accomodate people because of choices that they made?

Why can these families, as members of the church, not take the initiative to solve these 'problems' themselves?

If they want activities that convenience them, then get involved and help organize them - don't just sit around and complain that 'the church' doesn't meet MY needs!

In the case of our congregation, most of the ladies activies are sponsored by the ladies under the 'oversight' of a couple of male deacons (and ultimately the elders). In reality, the women essentially 'get permission' to do thus-and-such, then pull it off themselves. That leaves little room for complaining - if it didn't get done, 99% of the time it comes back to whether or not the ladies themselves wanted it enough to do it.

PS --
In the case of our particular congregation, many events are at 'work-friendly' times. However, even so, participation by working wives is often minimal.
I can think of at least four specific 'events', if you will, that are at 'work-friendly' times. But, ironically, over the years of my aquaintance with these events (through my wife), the bulk of the participation is still with those women who do not work outside the home.
And, as far as I know, there is no divide of any sort brewing in our congregation over scheduling of women's events.

I guess, to harp on the 'involvement' point, if the majority - or even just one - of the committee members worked, how could the committee meet and set times that excluded them?
And, on the other side, are the committee members really so blatantly insensitive to the needs of their sisters?
Sounds like more than a 'scheduling problem' to me...

As for the teenager public/private school example - was this commonly known?
Did the 'Christians' just not care enough to make any effort to accommodate that kid?
In our congregation there are two or three different city schools (Huntsville-Madison-Athens), two county schools (Limestone-Madison), at least two private schools (Athens Bible-Madison Academy), and some home-schoolers to consider. Complicated enough?

In our congregation, there is a bit of a different potential divide, if you will - affluence.
The cost of many youth events - and they come fast and furious - stresses may families. It is a point of consideration, but most families just 'bite the bullet' and pay (or decline).
We count ourselves fortunate that we have so many 'opportunities', and the parents are involved enough that they could arrange free events if they chose.

As to the school example. Yes it was known but they had limited resources and apparently felt they were better used edifying the kids from the single private school in town which happened to be run by the upper crust of the church.

I'm just relaying what I'm hearing but I do have an example that is somewhat relevant. A couple years ago a group of stay-at-homes happened to end up on the nominating committee of our local PTA and we ended up with an all stay-at-home board (really just dumb luck). All meetings and projects save a couple of dinners moved to the day time. Participation plummetted and the board felt no one cared and that the organization was dying from dis-interest.

The next year we went balanced again and things improved.

I think Arkstfan is right in that the women's issue will be a major factor in the split when it comes but I'm not sure it will be the single issue.  Most of what I am seeing is more of a hermenutics based issue similar to the last splits with certain new issues being built into the process much more so than in the past.  This is where I place the women's issue.  It is going to be about equal with changing views of grace vrs legalism, whether we are a denomination or not, and and whether a church by another name is a church of Christ.

Winky,

If I remember right, you are a member at Highland.  When you are wandering around up there at Highland, if you run across a couple of 24 year old single blond females that look almost exactly alike and answer to the names Kristie and Kathie, tell them you know their dad on the web.  They presently flip back and forth between Highland and another church (which I can't think of the name of right now) that is just opposit of Highland in everything.  They apparantly like variety.

Warning:  Blathery Rant mode on

I'm not "working".  That is, not for a paycheck, not punching a time clock.  But I do work, silly me, for free.

I run a household, masterminding scheduling of finances, church and school activities and medical needs of three adults, a 17-year old and a 10-year old.  (And an arthritic, allergic pit bulldog, and an alternately snooty/overaffectionate tomcat.)

Nah, sounds like a vacation to me.  Can't call any of that work...

Most of our women work a job of some kind.  Teachers, office managers, convenience store managers.  But, we do have a lot of retirees, disabled and people like me...lazy people who cannot be bothered to get up in the morning, but who lie about with the TV remote and a box of pralines...

Oh, sorry, was I showing any resentment?  Heh, maybe I was gloating... :p

15 of us just got back from a weekend retreat at a resort 5 hours away.  We were mostly "working" women.  I guess the ones with jobs do OK attending stuff if they plan things 6 months in advance.

Anyway, the "Ladies' Night Out" is on Tuesdays from 6:30 to whenever.  You leave when you gotta.  The men's equivalent is a breakfast on Saturday mornings.  Leaves out a few men (often my Mike), but is generally well-attended.

The only church-sponsored "Ladies' Bible Class" is on Tuesday mornings.  The evening one was on Wednesdays before the 7 p.m. class, but petered out, I'm not sure why.  Its attendance was much higher than the a.m. class.

Here's the tiny morning class attendance:
*myself
*my mom-in-law (approaching 83, diabetic, strokes & heart attacks)
*a fairly fit older lady who has speech & communication problems
*a middle-aged lady with severe mobility and speech problems
*another older lady, sprightly though, who is retired due to a liver disease
*often, a volunteer who works the jail/correspondence ministry will stop her work and join us
*and the teacher, a loving and faithful lady (who manages much better than I to have her opinions and disagreements with leadership, yet still remain their key player when it's time to 'run' the ladies)

So, the usual attendance is 6.  Out of a congregation of about 120, with more female than male members.

Mike wants me to stop going to that class.  He sees it as a waste of my time.

True, I do not get into any "meat" studies there, since the content and discussion has to be delicately steered for the benefit of a new convert, a mentally strange convert, and so as to not upset staunch long-term members (some of whom never go but who would be wildly apprehensive if we studied much above the evangelistic/new babe level... We might ignite something, I guess... we might confuse someone, and of course we'd never want to author confusion...)

(Note: I am mentally strange, but it's not me that needs the delicate steering!)

But, since three of the six cannot drive, and the rest of us pick them up to attend, I hate to leave.  His mom is one; he says, "Drop her off and go home, go to the library, do something useful."

Ranger said, "('Susie, I know that you are a skilled corporate trainer, but teaching at church from God's word is wrong unless you have a faithful husband who will give you the authority to use the gifts that God Almighty in all of his wisdom gave to you without the benefit of a faithful husband.  (sigh) If only you were a boy.')"

Hah!  My group doesn't even see it that well.  Various women fill a deaconess' role; they can sign benevolence checks, within guidelines; they are the most of the teachers; they provide most of the volunteer effort for everything from VBS to singing at funerals to door-to-door campaigning.

But, they cannot stand up in a mixed-gender group to confess sin, ask for prayer, announce something praiseworthy, because they are women.

Recently, a brother was so uncomfortable with women speaking up with needs during announcement time, he went to the elders to ask that they announce that all future announcements be submitted to them so that they could announce them from the pulpit.

Of course, all that actually was announced was that "some had come to the elders" expressing that the "announcement period" was "getting out of hand", so that's why we're going to do it this way...

Leaving the impression that the length of time or something else was the problem.

Whom were they protecting from the hoots of laughter that would rise (and maybe the disregarding of the plan, maybe total (shudder) rebellion) if they announced the full truth?  The super-conservative brother?  His joyous bubbly less-conservative wife?  

Were the leaders protecting themselves?  Us as a whole?  Who knows?

Whew!  Blathery Rant mode off...

Thanks guys, for letting me "vent".

We've ambled and rambled around the conservatives vs. wild eyed liberals as a potential split.

I want to pose a different idea.

I think the seeds of war have been sown and the battle is to be over women (patricia you around).

Our other discussions of what are the acceptable and proper roles of women may play into this but I suspect only as a symptom of something much deeper.

The battle I see may not ever manifest itself in these categories but I think they are the root of a growing problem.

Women who work outside the home vs. in the home.
About 60% of households are two income.
But in my experience in the churches the numbers are reversed or even larger in favor of "in the home".

In speaking with female co-workers I find that they are often unhappy that their churches often schedule children's events during normal working hours and have their women's classes during normal working hours. Organizational meetings to prepare for other events tend to be scheduled during those times as well.

As a result they feel excluded.

These same women mention times when evening events are rotated among homes and they feel bad for declining to host or they accept because they feel obligated but don't want to host because they don't believe their homes will be compared favorably due to the fact that they have less time for decorating or neatness (not an issue of cleanliness rather one of clutter). They see hosting as stressful to get the house up to snuff.

They often complain that too many activities for them and the kids are scheduled, even at work friendly hours, forcing them to choose between attending everything and not being home at night or turning them down and not being part of the community.

Honestly I don't have a great deal of interaction with the in-home group and don't know how they perceive the out-of-home.

But there certainly seems to be a growing frustration among those working outside home. A frustration that is even greater for the divorced women who are the custodial parent.

Is anyone in a church that has taken steps to address these situations?

I'm not talking about convience.

From what is being told to me I'm talking about situations where the Women's Ministry and Children's Ministry committees at these churches meet during work hours to come up with what they will do and then schedule those events during work hours. They find out that these things are being considered when the announcement is made or it appears in the bulletin with a time already set.

This isn't something that just hits the women, it hits the children because they can't go to the events scheduled between 3:30 and 5:30 either.

Over half the women between 18 and 65 in this country work outside the home. I work with a large number of them and for about half of them it is not a choice that they work it is because they can't live on the small alimony they could receive, in a couple cases its because their husbands are self-employed with fluctuating incomes or work for companies that don't provide health coverage.

The closest analogy I can draw is from when I was a teenager attending public school we had basically a different vacation schedule from the private school so many of my peers attended. Our church consistently scheduled youth events on days the private school was out and public school was in session and never once in six years scheduled an event on a day public school was out and private school in session.

That sent a message intended or not about who was valued.

I want to be sure that I understand the original post.  Are you saying that the issue around "women's role in the church" is rooted in the broader issue of a "woman's role in life"?

I would answer "yes."  The view you hold about who women are as people greatly influences your belief system about what women should and should not do.  I suspect the restlessness felt by many is strongly connected with our being free to use our gifts without hinderance "out there" in the world.  

I notice that even in more "traditional" family systems (i.e., mom - home, dad - work, kids - home or school, dog - back yard, cat - in house being the one true ruler ;) )  parents want their daughters to have an excellent education including college and opportunity to excel.  Once they have experienced the opportunity to use their gifts without barriers in the world, I think that they will thirst to do so for God within the church.  Can that be a bad thing?  Surely not!  
("Susie, I know that you are a skilled corporate trainer, but teaching at church from God's word is wrong unless you have a faithful husband who will give you the authority to use the gifts that God Almighty in all of his wisdom gave to you without the benefit of a faithful husband.  (sigh) If only you were a boy.")

In short, I agree.  The view of women is the root.

Although I'm not sure that I see it being a potential church-splitting issue (famous last words, right?), I do see almost every situation mentioned here as an issue that does affect Christians, often negatively.

The private school/public school in youth issue:
Within the youth group I attended, there were dozens of schools represented as it was in a large, metropolitan area. There was only one main private school, a well-known c of c private school that many in the youth group attended. I and many other public school kids in the youth group felt consistently snubbed by the private school clique. They all were friends with each other because they went to both school and church together and apparently didn't feel a need to make any other friends. Most of them were much more affluent than the public school kids, and that didn't help the feeling of clique-ishness. And although it wasn't a regular event, occasionally activities were scheduled on days when they were out but not other schools. Of course, with as many schools represented as there were, there was no way to pick a day when it worked for all school schedules.

On the topic of women and working vs. not:
I dont' have kids yet, but I've experienced this to an extent. I'm in a young couples class, where a lot of the couples have babies or young children and most of the mothers stay home or work only part-time. I am new(ish) to the class, but I am now on the social planning committee. At our last meeting we planned a girls' night out and a guys' night out. The comment was made by the leader of the committee (a female) that we needed to be sure to plan the guys night out on a weekend so they could stay out late withouth worrying about getting up for work in the morning, but that the girls night out could be on a weeknight since "we don't have to get up for work." I didn't feel comfortable being the only one to object and insist that they make it on a weekend, so I didn't say anything. I know that's my own insecurities at fault, but I sure felt like the odd one out. Maybe next meeting I'll get some nerve and make the observation that some of the women do have to get up for work.

On the subject of affluence, specifically in the area of youth events:
At the youth group I was in, we had scholarships for anyone wanting to go on a youth trip or activity who needed monetary help. The scholarships were funded (anonymously) by those who could spare money to help pay for one or more other people to attend. You would often see a notice in the bulletin asking for more scholarships for a specific event, and to my knowledge, someone came through with the needed money each time. Seemed to be a good system.

I can definitley see this as a problem.  There always seems to be that undercurrent between the working vs. non-working mothers of superiority.  We were in a marriage workshop some years back (His Needs Her Needs if you are familiar), and one of the non-working mothers was constantly espousing the benefits of her lifestyle.  My wife, and several others were working moms, and it just seemed as if the non-working mom took that opportunity to take a couple of shots throughout the sessions.  

That being said, our congregation is very blue-collar, few professional service type families.  Most of the women do work outside of the home, with a few exceptions.  This is pretty harmonious, as most of the women getting the ball rolling on activities are working during the day.  

We also experienced this in a different situation.  Everyone who works at the church are volunteers.  We had a great youth ministry program going with our former youth minister, reaching out with other local congregations.  When things started moving for a more are-wide apporach to the ministries, all the other paid ministers scheduled day meetings.  Our guy could never attend, and we were basically uninvited to most of the events.  Now years later, I am the youth minister, volunteer, working a full time position (the Lord did bless me with 8-4:30 M-F, oh, thank the Lord for that blessing!).  We do have an area wide collaboration with the other ministers, but they will schedule lunch meetings close to the office, so we have a wonderful rapport.  I guess its just funny how we get a bit proud of our position and are less likely to take anyone else into consideration.  

In Him,

Jonesy

The example cited of problems among women's role in society does lead to the other discussion, but I think that the solution to the smaller problem is possible by changing the roles of the groups.  First of all the women that meet during the day need to do so for a women's study and perhaps will for a group that is quite separate for the women who work.  As for the women's events those need to be planned separately so that all can participate.  The needs of working women to find ways to be involved in the church and to meet together with others is especially important, however it does not have to be with the all the stay at home moms.  If those are your leaders, assign one or two to try to work with the working moms to help them grow spiritually and to help them get involved in the church.

The youth problem is one of perspective.  There are many times that what we do as adults exclude others, so we try to offer options.  Great.  But for kids it is difficult to do more.  There needs to be some official polls find out what can be done to offer more inclusion (stay at homes taking on the responsibility to get the working mom kids to the events?) and large events done so that they will draw, not just kids of church folk, but the unchurched too.

My thoughts.  Take em or leave em or ask for clearification.

Eric

This whole discussion of a ladies class during the day serving only a small group is tough for me (a man who "works" parttime for the church [if it can ever be considered part time] and the rest of the time is a stay at home dad).  I cannot participate in studies during the day like that because there is no men's group to do that with, and it would definitely disrupt any women's group to have a man in there (besides however uncomfortable I might feel). :D

I love causing these kinds of problems.  In Sociology classes at University I always messed up the prof - talking about male and female roles in society.  My dad was at home with me as far as I can remember while I was growing up.  Mom worked as a nurse.  Now my boys can mess with sociologist too :p

What a woman can and can't do on Sunday Morning comes back to an individuals understanding of authority and what it means to usurp authority verse acting under authority, and also how one sees Sunday as the same or different than the rest of our lives in service to God.  Solving that issue is no easy road, but looking at the whole life picture should help some.  Can women be CEOs?

Eric