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These are the arguments for IM only worship that I know of...

1. The New Testament doesn't allow Instrumental Music - Col 3:17 seems to indicate it would be acceptable, Psalms mentioned in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 were played with instrumental music (many times denoting the melody and the instrument played with), since IM wasn't part of the old law it is not cancelled by Col 2:14 (nailing the law to the cross).  This is maintained on the law of silence mainly... that you must have strict written permission to do anything in a worship service, yet the worship service is an \"iffy\" concept in the bible, and this is almost impossible to adhere to completely... (actually it is impossible to adhere to completely due to so many modern worship service traditions and expedients not being specifically mentioned in the bible).  Is there a command in the bible that we can only worship the way things are written specifically in the New Testament?

2. The Old Law was nailed to the cross - Col 2:14, yet Instrumental Music was never part of the old law, and there are several instances of it not even being used in the temple.. 1 Samuel 16:23, 2 Samuel 6:5, 1 Samuel 10:5, Genesis 31:27 (good secular use).  Since it was never part of the old law.. it wasn't \"cancelled\"

3. Instrumental Music was only used in the temple - IM was used outside of the temple (see Samuel and Genesis passages above), David used it for good uses.  Also if Col 3:17 is any indicator if we have a talent we should use it for the glory of God.

4. Instrumental Music is inherently evil - IM was used by the heathens to celebrate their pagan Gods... however the invention of IM was amoral.  Jubal was the first to use IM... both good and bad people used it in the Old Testament.  Obviously it was used for good.  Jesus told us that external things don't defile us... things that come out of our heart defile us.  Instruments are not inherently evil. (Matthew 15:16-20), and yes I've seen this argument used before (on Piney... imagine that!)

5. Instrumental Music is devisive - IM can be devisive and should never be used where it can be harmful (1 Cor 8)... but if it can be helpful, can provide healing, can provide praise... it should be used if there are people that have the talents to implement it. (Col 3:17)

6. the definition of the word psallo found in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 means to \"sing\" - this one is iffy at best, psallo may mean creating a melody, it may mean singing. People argue this one into the ground and its hard to figure out... at best the word has several closely related meanings.. I think we can understand more about what Paul was trying to say by reading his writings in context and taking into account especially Col 3:17 right after Col 3:16. I would say this probably trumped by the other arguments above anyway.

7. Instruments being played in Rev 14 were symbolic - We are told the saints will have harps in heaven...once again this would be trumped by the arguments above, yet would a sinful symbolic act be shown in heaven?

8. \"Strange Fire\" offered by Nadab and Abihu - Nadab and Abihu were given a command from God regarding a sacrifice.  There are instances of God commanding IM in the Old Testament, does God command us how to conduct worship services in the New Testament?  First off its hard to illustrate a true \"worship service\" in the bible, second off our only guide would be the bible so there would be countless things we do that would be not authorized by God... many of the modern expedients would be unauthorized. (and the bible never had a special clause for expedients in the OT that I know of I know some would argue microphones are an expedient thus can be used, but in my opionion thats inconsistent)

9.  The hypocritical conscience argument - I had to add this in, Skip hates it when I use this methodology... and he is correct, it is no way to prove the correctness of IM.  Skip the only reason I use this argument... (an example is you believe silence doesn't allow you to use IM, but you have an example of singing... if that were the case though you wouldn't be able to greet with a handshake only a kiss), is so I can hopefully convince people to contemplate on how they intrepret the bible.  It definitely isn't a refute of any argument.  Its simply something I hope can make people be more honest with themselves.

10. The Early Church didn't use it - are we sure?  Have harps, lyres, etc. ever been found in the homes where the Church met up to the third century?  We know that followers of God before Christ used it.  Is the supposition that people from an earlier time period didn't use it, a worthy exhortation for us not to use it anyway?  3rd Century Christians didn't use PA Systems to spread the gospel to stadiums full of 60,000 people, does that mean we shouldn't?

11. We shouldn't put on a show in our worship assembly - We should never be false.  God is much more displeased with how our hearts and lives are being lived before we even come into the assembly though (read Amos, where God hates the Israelittes music because they don't serve him when their not singing).  I've been in the prescence of heartfelt instrumental praise though.  This is a matter of the heart.  Also we need to remember King David was very elaborate in his instrumental praise... to the point that Michal despised him... yet we know by the words of Samuel that God was pleased with his outpouring.

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I'm sure thats not an authoritative list.  I brought it up because we were already talking about IM.  I feel like the bible is actually pretty straightforward that IM is acceptable to God based on the above.  I know some aren't convinced.  Its not my purpose to say we all have to use it... not everyone has the talent and it is not proper to use it in all circumstances.

Clifty

Nobody here has prevented you from using instruments.
Why must you keep dragging it up?
I know this will sound perverse,  but the fact that you continue to agitate the issue is, for me,  reason enough not to use them.

BoG, there is nothing agitating in my post.  Its simply what it is...

I simply don't like disinformation... especially on issues that divide.  I'm providing this information here because its the thought and study I've done.  I know there are people on this site right now struggling in their mind over this issue.

If I provide this information they can add it to their study.  Yes my information is slanted towards the refute of IM only worship... its that way because I believe after all the study I've done that it is refuted.

Please if any of the points above haven't been refuted correctly point that out to me.

This isn't about being right... its about dispelling disinformation.

You know, the argument that the Bible doesn't demonstrate a particular order to worship, instead of making me believe that we can do what we want in worship, actually makes me believe that the Bible is not sufficient as a guide to all spiritual things.

IOW, its a tacit admission that the Catholics and Orthodox are right in teaching the verbal transmission of apostolic teaching. So bye-bye sola Scriptura!

Sorry.

Ken

Sure, Clifty - it's not about being right, it's about proving that somebody else is wrong.

Give it a rest.

Attacking the poster instead of the material posted is probably not the best way to conduct business BoG.

This board is here for things such as this.  If you have a problem with what I post you have the ability to refute everything I posted and make me cease by making me look like I have no idea what I'm talking about and being ashamed or disinterested in bringing it up again.

The only reason I brought it up \"again\" is because theres currently two other threads that brought it up again... they had similar questions running parallel to each other so I figured I'd compile it all.

nuff said.

QuoteYou know, the argument that the Bible doesn't demonstrate a particular order to worship, instead of making me believe that we can do what we want in worship, actually makes me believe that the Bible is not sufficient as a guide to all spiritual things.

IOW, its a tacit admission that the Catholics and Orthodox are right in teaching the verbal transmission of apostolic teaching. So bye-bye sola Scriptura!

I don't know Ken.  I think it depends on how you view worship.... as simply a worship service, or the worship service being a part of worship.  If your definition of worship is simply a worship service than the bible isn't going to be much use to you.  If your definition of worship incorporates praise, humble prostration and lifestyle than I think the inspired word of God is the ultimate spiritual guide.

I need to post my study on the words behind \"worship\". Proskuneo and Latreia... that study taught me so much.  I need to compile it and post it... it was very helpful to me.[/color]

QuoteYou know, the argument that the Bible doesn't demonstrate a particular order to worship, instead of making me believe that we can do what we want in worship, actually makes me believe that the Bible is not sufficient as a guide to all spiritual things.

IOW, its a tacit admission that the Catholics and Orthodox are right in teaching the verbal transmission of apostolic teaching. So bye-bye sola Scriptura!

Sorry.

Ken

Interesting idea.
One might contrast the strict order of Old Testament worship with the postulated free-form, no guidelines worship and wonder...
Did God change, or did man misunderstand?

I for one, Clifty, thank you for your thoughtful study and sharing of it here.

I hope that with my track record, this doesn't dispel your hard work, for me to say good job, and keep it up for the glory of Him either.

I appreciate learning, when done so in facts and not in finger pointing, as I am sure others do so too.

Very interesting thread.

Memmy

QuoteInteresting idea.  
One might contrast the strict order of Old Testament worship with the postulated free-form, no guidelines worship and wonder...
Did God change, or did man misunderstand?

It could be said that before Constantine there wasn't a strict order.. and that was nearly 300 years into the formation of Christianity... right?

We know we misunderstood... many, many times.  Jesus's ministry was partly our Lord instructing the Jews on what God actually meant by all the various symbols and acts of worship.  They misunderstood it all so bad they didn't even realize that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and was the physical manifestation of the symbols of the temple worship for the most part.

Jesus had to practically re-teach the ten commandments to the Jews in his sermon on the mount.  He had to reitterate teachings on divorce...

What was the order of worship in the Old Testament anyway?  The point was Jesus fulfilled it all... Jesus was the culmination of it all... Jesus said we would no longer worship on a mountain or in Jerusalem... true followers would worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Thats the point... what is worshipping in Spirit and in Truth?

I personally don't think \"Spirit\" refers to how loud you sing and I dont' think \"Truth\" refers to the law of silence myself!

:D[/color]

BTW Bog, I will say I'm sorry I have to present these arguments the way I did... in a list numbered.  Yes you may view me hypocritical in a way for doing this.... because growing up I read countless tracts that were laid out the same way but refuting arguments for IM...

But I believe its not the same however because I'm not saying the above is the end-all-be-all on the matter (which is why I posted it, for mutual collaboration) and I'm open to discuss anything that comes up regarding them.

Those two above factors make my demeanor different than those tracts I believe.  There was no questioning the tracts... it was either the elders way or the highway.

With that said, I'm hoping if anyone has an issue with any of the points in the first post they'll feel free to bring it up.

Quote...
Jesus had to practically re-teach the ten commandments to the Jews in his sermon on the mount.  He had to reitterate teachings on divorce...

What was the order of worship in the Old Testament anyway?  The point was Jesus fulfilled it all... Jesus was the culmination of it all... Jesus said we would no longer worship on a mountain or in Jerusalem... true followers would worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Thats the point... what is worshipping in Spirit and in Truth?
...

I'm not sure I'm tracking with you, but here's a reply on my best guess.

Did God change on divorce?
Was it that God excused sin in the OT, then finally decided to become stricter on divorce in the NT?

OT worship was clearly defined, then fulfilled.
Fine.
Problem is, we're also commanded to worship in the NT... but no longer clearly defined?
After a clear definition in the OT, all we get in the NT is a vague \"spirit and truth\"?
Why the change?
Isn't it reasonable to think that a consistent God will clearly define worship in both the OT and NT?[/color]

Good question Skip... one thats not easily answered.  I don't think worship is strictly defined now because of Christ fulfilling the external regulations of worship... I base a large part of that on Paul's writings to the Hebrews chapter 9... it says that all the regulations and symbols were setup to represent Christ in the tabernacle and temple... but when Jesus came he fulfilled it all..  

Hebrew 9:10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.



However I do think one point worth considering is this.  For most normal everyday people in the Old Testment worship wasn't all that strictly defined either.  For the Levites it was very strictly defined, but for the everyday Joes who brought their sacrifices to the courtyard it didn't seem that well defined.  Every now and then God would give them a strict command with regard to a specific sacrifice but I think for the most part they had a basic set of laws they adhered to, and in much the same way many of us adhere to Col 3:17, they tried to do everything they could in speech and deed for God.

I think sometimes we think everyone in the Old Testament was a Levite, that the Jews were all Levites.... Not all the Jews were Pharisees, Priests and Scribes...

Maybe we don't have a very accurate picture of what everyday life was like for a Jew in the Old Testament (or maybe I don't, let me know if I'm way off!)

QuoteYou know, the argument that the Bible doesn't demonstrate a particular order to worship, instead of making me believe that we can do what we want in worship, actually makes me believe that the Bible is not sufficient as a guide to all spiritual things.

IOW, its a tacit admission that the Catholics and Orthodox are right in teaching the verbal transmission of apostolic teaching. So bye-bye sola Scriptura!

Sorry.

Ken

:amen:

The definition of worship is extremely important.  I can't quite put my finger on it and hopefully someone out there can say this better.  Our 'leader' speaks of the building in terms of \"within these four walls we can find salvation\" which I think he means, the worship service takes place here so it is more sacred than the 'world'.  *Thus we can listen to our radios while pulling into the parking lot and while leaving but NEVER within the worship service.  It is obvious that musical instruments is not the issue in and of itself (unless all music with instruments is seen as evil/wrong/unnatural or whatever?) This man, I truly believe, will not be able to understand that the worship service is not the sum total of \"salvation/christianity/obedience et al\" (he admits that we must live transformed lives, share the gospel etc.) But functionally, it is extremely obvious that sunday morning worship service is pretty much where man and God interact in its completeness.  How can I explain to him differently?  (Scriptures by themselves are not enough because it is just MY interpretation.)  I truly hope that I have explained it enough to make some sense.

I would hope not to overextend this verse, but I think that the idea is central to the assembly of Christians:
\"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.\"
Matt. 18:20

Taken literally, there is something different and special about the assembly of Christians in the name of Christ:
Christ is there in their midst.

QuoteIt could be said that before Constantine there wasn't a strict order.. and that was nearly 300 years into the formation of Christianity... right?

One might say that, but the facts appear to be otherwise:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm

The historic church in the early centuries didn't use instruments;  that's reason enough for me.

QuoteGood question Skip... one thats not easily answered.  I don't think worship is strictly defined now because of Christ fulfilling the external regulations of worship... I base a large part of that on Paul's writings to the Hebrews chapter 9... it says that all the regulations and symbols were setup to represent Christ in the tabernacle and temple... but when Jesus came he fulfilled it all..  

Hebrew 9:10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.



However I do think one point worth considering is this.  For most normal everyday people in the Old Testment worship wasn't all that strictly defined either.  For the Levites it was very strictly defined, but for the everyday Joes who brought their sacrifices to the courtyard it didn't seem that well defined.  Every now and then God would give them a strict command with regard to a specific sacrifice but I think for the most part they had a basic set of laws they adhered to, and in much the same way many of us adhere to Col 3:17, they tried to do everything they could in speech and deed for God.

I think sometimes we think everyone in the Old Testament was a Levite, that the Jews were all Levites.... Not all the Jews were Pharisees, Priests and Scribes...

Maybe we don't have a very accurate picture of what everyday life was like for a Jew in the Old Testament (or maybe I don't, let me know if I'm way off!)

Just off the top of my head, there were several organized Jewish religious events that specifically involved the \"lay Jew\" in prescribed religious ceremony.

The most obvious is Passover.
Others include Pentecost and Booths.

Another event that comes to mind is Daniel's specific compliance to the command to 'pray toward Jerusalem' when in exile.

Skip





Skip said
I would hope not to overextend this verse, but I think that the idea is central to the assembly of Christians:
\"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.\"
Matt. 18:20

Taken literally, there is something different and special about the assembly of Christians in the name of Christ:
Christ is there in their midst.  


* In context, this verse is dealing with forgiveness and conflict and not worship per se?  For what that is worth

Quote

QuoteIt could be said that before Constantine there wasn't a strict order.. and that was nearly 300 years into the formation of Christianity... right?

One might say that, but the facts appear to be otherwise:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm

The historic church in the early centuries didn't use instruments;  that's reason enough for me.

That reasoning has, unfortunately, been extended and applied in many areas, sometimes to the point of division.

In this area I heard that a church split essentially over this principle:
\"The historic church in the early centuries didn't use air conditioning;  that's reason enough for me.\"

There are countless other instances of such. No doubt the weirdest instances have been documented for posterity by Ketcherside, who seemed to collect and revel in such stories.[/color]

[a href=\"http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm\" target=\'_blank\']http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm[/a]

Hey Bog, I'll read through this when I have a chance, may take a while  :;):

QuoteSkip





Skip said
I would hope not to overextend this verse, but I think that the idea is central to the assembly of Christians:
\"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.\"
Matt. 18:20

Taken literally, there is something different and special about the assembly of Christians in the name of Christ:
Christ is there in their midst.  


* In context, this verse is dealing with forgiveness and conflict and not worship per se?  For what that is worth

Are they only \"gathered in His name\" when resolving conflicts?

QuoteYou know, the argument that the Bible doesn't demonstrate a particular order to worship, instead of making me believe that we can do what we want in worship, actually makes me believe that the Bible is not sufficient as a guide to all spiritual things.

IOW, its a tacit admission that the Catholics and Orthodox are right in teaching the verbal transmission of apostolic teaching. So bye-bye sola Scriptura!

I'm following you in your first paragraph, but I'm not sure that it necessarily leads to the second as the only option.

Just a thought.

Wendy

I would be very interested in learning what the musical landscape was like in the 1st century....

The Greeks developed a system of music that didn't exist previously... Its worth pointing out that the guitar didn't exist in the first century... neither did the piano, organ or bass.  Over time due to experience, mass production, commerce all of these things have continually gotten cheaper and easier to play.  Training has become cheaper as well.  For $100 I can buy 3 DVDs from Homespuntapes.com and learn from masters in the art... In Greek times I'm assuming this would have been something a pupil would have had to invest an exhorbitant amount of time in to learn.  It would have most likely have been a life experience and probably would have continued into an occupation for that pupil.  Things have changed so much its hard to even compare that time to ours.  Due to our shift from physical labor to office settings we have free time many of the ancients didn't have, thus even the most simple folk can learn trades only the elite would have had in the past.

I think with regard to this we can say things have changed and musical talent with regard to playing instruments is something that wasn't that big of a deal in the early Church.  Most people would have neither had an instrument nor even knew how to play one...

Since the Greek musical system was just beginning to evolve would there have even been a system of notation and musical instrumentation to play?  I'm not sure.  The Hebrews had a system that had been in place for quite some time.  Would the Greeks have been apt to take up Hebrew instruments or musical systems... well thats pretty simple.  You can simply ask the question... Am I apt to pick up Hebrew musical systems or instruments?  Nope.  I play what I learned regionally.  Interestingly enough what I learned to play is drastically different than most people because I grew up 1 hour from Bill Monroe's homeplace.  I play bluegrass, and I learned to play it from my ancestors and neighbors who play it traditionally.  Most Gentiles probably wouldn't have been that likely to learn the Hebrew musical system or learn to play their instruments... it would have been like me having an easy time learning to understand the musical subleties of Polka, or and easy time picking up the Sitar.

I think theres a lot more to this issue than we let on.

I think it is safe to say that wholesale musical instruments and ability is a relatively recent occurance.  We need to figure out if people have these skills and they may be beneficial to the kingdom whether or not we should do it... I don't think we should just assume just because the early Church didn't do it (thats up to speculation, and as I've illustrated above they may not have had the capacity to do it in the first place), that we shouldn't.  As I said before and Skip kindly pointed out... that way of thinking can lead to division.  I realize its well-intended but I don't see it as being that intuitive.

Theres no doubt that it was done in the far past (By David even before the temple was built)... theres no doubt it can heal (if David's account of playing to Saul was any indicator.. an act commissioned by God)... Theres no doubt God has been pleased with it (to the point of commissioning it in the building he filled with his presence , and illustrating it as being in heaven... even if it was symbolic)

I hate to make things to wooden.  I'm afraid when we do that we make it impossible to be intuitive in the Kingdom of God... As I've said before plenty of retailers do a much better job of reaching customers than the Church does reaching lost souls.  For some reason some think we have to continue to use the same methods of reaching the lost that people 1000 years old used.  Or not even looking into using new methods just because they didn't exist at the time the bible was written.  Reminds me of Churches who still use those little flannel boards, or have song books from ages past, or who who require their members to only study from bibles that use language 400 years old.... theres nothing inherently wrong with that... but for goodness sake... can't we consider that times have changed?

Unless God specifically commanded us to do it that way I don't see why we should limit our innovation and brainstorming that way.

Oh my goodness.  I just spent the last two hours listening to a preacher at a friend's house go on and on about how the ICC/CoC are a bunch of hellbound pagan with no appreciation for the authority of the Word.  I had to leave and come home for my blood pressure medicine.  My wife didn't want me to get into it with him, so my tongue's bleedin' so bad I'm gonna have to have stitches.

I'm and a cappella man by conviction.  But the name-calling, motive-questioning folks get on my last ever-lovin' nerve.

Aaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhh!        ::barfon::      ::poke:: :banghead:

:alert: This has been a test of the emergency steam-valve release system.  You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Quote

QuoteYou know, the argument that the Bible doesn't demonstrate a particular order to worship, instead of making me believe that we can do what we want in worship, actually makes me believe that the Bible is not sufficient as a guide to all spiritual things.

IOW, its a tacit admission that the Catholics and Orthodox are right in teaching the verbal transmission of apostolic teaching. So bye-bye sola Scriptura!

I'm following you in your first paragraph, but I'm not sure that it necessarily leads to the second as the only option.

Just a thought.

Wendy[/color]

Yeah, there may be other options. My guess is, though, that the other options would result in what J. H. Newman would call a \"paper church\". It may exist as some theoretical construct but as a real life entity you would have a hard time proving it historically.

Ken

QuoteOh my goodness.  I just spent the last two hours listening to a preacher at a friend's house go on and on about how the ICC/CoC are a bunch of hellbound pagan with no appreciation for the authority of the Word.

This is exactly what I was saying in Barry's \"Instrument\" thread that for people in churches of Christ the use of instruments in worship is an indication that ones heart is not in the right place for following the will of God.

Ken[/color]

Ken,
But why would they think that?

Barry

very simple Barry... because they've been taught that way.  Thats why I brought up this thread, gave every argument I know against it (because I did grow up in a non IM CoC).  And showed that all the arguments I know of can be refuted (whether or not they are refuted successfully I'll let you decide).  I think this information is pretty straightforward.... as BoG has shown if you go on historical reasons you could illustrate that it was not used in the Early church.

Whether or not that means its unauthorized I'll let readers of the thread conclude....

Here is the revised list after the feedback I received....

1. The New Testament doesn't authorize Instrumental Music - Col 3:17, 1 Cor 10:31 seems to indicate we should use our gifts for God, Psalms mentioned in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 were played with instrumental music (many times denoting the melody and the instrument played with), since IM wasn't part of the old law it is not cancelled by Col 2:14 (nailing the law to the cross).  Authorization is most likely maintained on the \"law of silence\"...meaning that you must have strict written permission to do anything in a worship service, yet I believe the worship service is an \"iffy\" concept to illustrate in the bible (especially considering Paul's exhortation that regulations and rituals are banished since Christ fulfilled them ala Hebrews 9 and Romans 8), and this is almost impossible to adhere to completely... Is there a command in the bible that says we can only conduct corporate worship the way things are specifically worded in the New Testament?  Does the bible ever even define anything as being corporate worship or is worship attributable to the individual?

2. The Old Law was nailed to the cross - Col 2:14, yet Instrumental Music was never part of the old law, and there are several instances of it not even being used in the temple.. 1 Samuel 16:23, 2 Samuel 6:5, 1 Samuel 10:5, Genesis 31:27 (good secular use).  Since it was never part of the old law.. it wasn't \"cancelled\"

3. Instrumental Music was only used in the temple - IM was used outside of the temple (see Samuel and Genesis passages above), David used it for good uses.  Also if Col 3:17 and 1 Cor 10:31 is any indicator if we have a talent we should use it for the glory of God.

4. Instrumental Music is inherently evil - IM was used by the heathens to celebrate their pagan Gods... however the invention of IM was amoral.  Jubal was the first to use IM noted in the bible (Genesis 4:21, note the KJV says \"organ\" which may be a little misleading)... both good and bad people used it in the Old Testament.  Obviously it can be used for good.  Jesus told us that external things don't defile us... things that come out of our heart defile us.  Instruments are not inherently evil. (Matthew 15:16-20).

5. Instrumental Music is devisive - IM can be devisive and should never be used where it can be harmful (1 Cor 8)... but if it can be helpful, can provide healing, can provide praise... it should be used if there are people that have the talents to implement it. (Col 3:17, 1 Cor 10:31)

6. The definition of the word \"psallo\" found in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 means to \"sing\" - this one is iffy at best, psallo may mean creating a melody, it may mean singing. People argue this one into the ground and its hard to figure out... at best the word has several closely related meanings.. I think we can understand more about what Paul was trying to say by reading his writings in context and taking into account especially Col 3:17 right after Col 3:16. I would say this doesn't matter anyway because even if it does say sing there are other arguments that would trump this one.

7. Instruments being played in Rev 14 were symbolic - We are told the saints will have harps in heaven...once again this would be trumped by the arguments above, yet would a sinful symbolic act be shown in heaven?

8. \"Strange Fire\" offered by Nadab and Abihu - Nadab and Abihu were given a command from God regarding a sacrifice.  There are instances of God commanding IM in the Old Testament, does God command us how to conduct worship services in the New Testament?  First off its hard to illustrate a true \"worship service\" in the bible, second off our only guide would be the bible so there would be countless things we do that would be not authorized by God... many of the modern expedients would be unauthorized. (and the bible never had a special clause for expedients in the OT that I know of I know some would argue microphones are an expedient thus can be used, but in my opionion thats inconsistent)

9.  The hypocritical conscience argument - I had to add this in, Skip hates it when I use this methodology... and he is correct, it is no way to prove the correctness of IM.  Skip the only reason I use this argument... (an example is you believe silence doesn't allow you to use IM, but you have an example of singing... if that were the case though you wouldn't be able to greet with a handshake only a kiss), is so I can hopefully convince people to contemplate on how they intrepret the bible.  It definitely isn't a refute of any argument.  Its simply something I hope can make people be more honest with themselves.

10. The Early Church didn't use it - are we sure?  Have harps, lyres, etc. ever been found in the homes where the Church met up to the third century?  We know that followers of God before Christ used it.  Is the supposition that people from an earlier time period didn't use it, a worthy exhortation for us not to use it anyway?  3rd Century Christians didn't use PA Systems to spread the gospel to stadiums full of 60,000 people, does that mean we shouldn't?  Its very hard to fully understand the musical landscape of the 1st century.  It was a time that Greeks were formulating new musical theory and instruments, they probably wouldn't adopt Hebrew systems and instruments... also there probably just weren't that many musicians, especially compared with today.

11. We shouldn't put on a show in our worship assembly - We should never be false.  God is much more displeased with how our hearts and lives are being lived before we even come into the assembly though (read Amos, where God hates the Israelittes music because they don't serve him when their not singing).  I've been in the prescence of heartfelt instrumental praise though.  This is a matter of the heart.  Also we need to remember King David was very elaborate in his instrumental praise... to the point that Michal despised him... yet we know by the words of Samuel that God was pleased with his outpouring.

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I'm sure thats not an authoritative list.  I brought it up because we were already talking about IM.  I feel like the bible is actually pretty straightforward that IM is acceptable to God based on the above.  I know some aren't convinced.  Its not my purpose to say we all have to use it... not everyone has the talent and it is not proper to use it in all circumstances.

QuoteKen,
But why would they think that?

Barry

The simple answer is \"don't go beyond what is written\", as the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Or \"the words I have given them will judge them in the last day\" from Jesus Christ.

Musical instruments, incense, robes for clergy, etc. are all viewed as \"additions\". You know what Christ said about adding to His book at the end of Revelations.

If you really wanted to do God's will you wouldn't add to it human traditions (such as instrumental music in worship).

QuoteHere is the revised list after the feedback I received....

1. The New Testament doesn't allow Instrumental Music - Col 3:17, 1 Cor 10:31 seems to indicate it would be acceptable, Psalms mentioned in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 were played with instrumental music (many times denoting the melody and the instrument played with), since IM wasn't part of the old law it is not cancelled by Col 2:14 (nailing the law to the cross).  This is maintained on the law of silence mainly... that you must have strict written permission to do anything in a worship service, yet the worship service is an \"iffy\" concept in the bible, and this is almost impossible to adhere to completely... (actually it is impossible to adhere to completely due to so many modern worship service traditions and expedients not being specifically mentioned in the bible).  Is there a command in the bible that we can only worship the way things are written specifically in the New Testament?

2. The Old Law was nailed to the cross - Col 2:14, yet Instrumental Music was never part of the old law, and there are several instances of it not even being used in the temple.. 1 Samuel 16:23, 2 Samuel 6:5, 1 Samuel 10:5, Genesis 31:27 (good secular use).  Since it was never part of the old law.. it wasn't \"cancelled\"

3. Instrumental Music was only used in the temple - IM was used outside of the temple (see Samuel and Genesis passages above), David used it for good uses.  Also if Col 3:17 and 1 Cor 10:31 is any indicator if we have a talent we should use it for the glory of God.

4. Instrumental Music is inherently evil - IM was used by the heathens to celebrate their pagan Gods... however the invention of IM was amoral.  Jubal was the first to use IM noted in the bible (Genesis 4:21, note the KJV says \"organ\" which may be a little misleading)... both good and bad people used it in the Old Testament.  Obviously it can be used for good.  Jesus told us that external things don't defile us... things that come out of our heart defile us.  Instruments are not inherently evil. (Matthew 15:16-20).

5. Instrumental Music is devisive - IM can be devisive and should never be used where it can be harmful (1 Cor 8)... but if it can be helpful, can provide healing, can provide praise... it should be used if there are people that have the talents to implement it. (Col 3:17, 1 Cor 10:31)

6. The definition of the word \"psallo\" found in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 means to \"sing\" - this one is iffy at best, psallo may mean creating a melody, it may mean singing. People argue this one into the ground and its hard to figure out... at best the word has several closely related meanings.. I think we can understand more about what Paul was trying to say by reading his writings in context and taking into account especially Col 3:17 right after Col 3:16. I would say this doesn't matter anyway because even if it does say sing there are other arguments that would trump this one.

7. Instruments being played in Rev 14 were symbolic - We are told the saints will have harps in heaven...once again this would be trumped by the arguments above, yet would a sinful symbolic act be shown in heaven?

8. \"Strange Fire\" offered by Nadab and Abihu - Nadab and Abihu were given a command from God regarding a sacrifice.  There are instances of God commanding IM in the Old Testament, does God command us how to conduct worship services in the New Testament?  First off its hard to illustrate a true \"worship service\" in the bible, second off our only guide would be the bible so there would be countless things we do that would be not authorized by God... many of the modern expedients would be unauthorized. (and the bible never had a special clause for expedients in the OT that I know of I know some would argue microphones are an expedient thus can be used, but in my opionion thats inconsistent)

9.  The hypocritical conscience argument - I had to add this in, Skip hates it when I use this methodology... and he is correct, it is no way to prove the correctness of IM.  Skip the only reason I use this argument... (an example is you believe silence doesn't allow you to use IM, but you have an example of singing... if that were the case though you wouldn't be able to greet with a handshake only a kiss), is so I can hopefully convince people to contemplate on how they intrepret the bible.  It definitely isn't a refute of any argument.  Its simply something I hope can make people be more honest with themselves.

10. The Early Church didn't use it - are we sure?  Have harps, lyres, etc. ever been found in the homes where the Church met up to the third century?  We know that followers of God before Christ used it.  Is the supposition that people from an earlier time period didn't use it, a worthy exhortation for us not to use it anyway?  3rd Century Christians didn't use PA Systems to spread the gospel to stadiums full of 60,000 people, does that mean we shouldn't?  Its very hard to fully understand the musical landscape of the 1st century.  It was a time that Greeks were formulating new musical theory and instruments, they probably wouldn't adopt Hebrew systems and instruments... also there probably just weren't that many musicians, especially compared with today.

11. We shouldn't put on a show in our worship assembly - We should never be false.  God is much more displeased with how our hearts and lives are being lived before we even come into the assembly though (read Amos, where God hates the Israelittes music because they don't serve him when their not singing).  I've been in the prescence of heartfelt instrumental praise though.  This is a matter of the heart.  Also we need to remember King David was very elaborate in his instrumental praise... to the point that Michal despised him... yet we know by the words of Samuel that God was pleased with his outpouring.

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I'm sure thats not an authoritative list.  I brought it up because we were already talking about IM.  I feel like the bible is actually pretty straightforward that IM is acceptable to God based on the above.  I know some aren't convinced.  Its not my purpose to say we all have to use it... not everyone has the talent and it is not proper to use it in all circumstances.

I want to make it clear in the beginning that this post is not an argument for or against the use of the instrument.

Clifty, you have not properly represented the other side.  You characterize the argument as being \"The New Testament doesn't allow Instrumental Music.\"  To be more precise, the argument is that the New Testament doesn't provide authority for the use of the instrument.

I continue to be a member of a non-instrumental church, but I have never heard anyone argue that the instrument is inherently evil, or that it was only used in the temple.  Most of your other arguments are worded the way the opposition characterizes the arguments rather then the way those opposing the use of the instrument would argue them.  If you want the other side to listen you have to willing to state their arguments in a way that harmonizes with the way they would state them themselves.

Jack (sorry if thats not your name, I can't remember if your name really is John or if its Jack) I appreciate you input... It is hard to think like someone else and object to things the waythey would object to them.  I'll change #1 to \"authorize\" instead of \"allow\", that definitely is much more in line with CoC thinking, and I respect that.

But as far as some of these being legitimate, I came from a CoC in rural Kentucky that did make many of these arguments.  Specifically 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 11.  BoG and others have introduced me to 10... I had never considered it before I met them.  Piney.com adheres to #4, I personally never saw it in our rural CoC, but Piney obviously believes it because they have an entire page on their website devoted to trying to paint the instrument as being inherently evil.  Number 9 is one I've come up with... a hypothetical.

Actually my refute of these arguments is why I play my instrument in worship assemblies and in personal worship today.  If anyone could show me that what I am doing is not in accordance with God's will I would gladly stop.  I do believe the bible is non-contradictory and that it is the recorded inspired words of God... so if it can be shown logical, contextually, etc. that its wrong... I'll change.

QuoteI continue to be a member of a non-instrumental church, but I have never heard anyone argue that the instrument is inherently evil, or that it was only used in the temple.  

I have.  They may not be in the mainstream, but they're out there.  

I don't think Cliftyman is saying that all non-instrumentalists teach and believe everything that he listed.  Rather, it is a list of arguments that are made from different people.  We non-instrumentalists can range anywhere from moderate to fringe lunatic radical.  Ever been to Piney.com?[/color]

By the way, from what I can tell, Piney is one man.  He no longer attends church at all from what I recollect.  He even believes that acappella singing with harmony is wrong.  He can't really be used to represent anyone.  Bless his heart, the fella's a little off his rocker.