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Janine,

Still debating. Do not see where I could ever fit in. But then I wonder what the Lord would do?  To be sure He would control His tongue better than my own self, .................................................or would He?


Oh and yes the repentance by your brother would be essential.... But then some do like to dance on the point of the needle.

Thanks, I'm checking that idea out.

But I do feel led to believe there is something important here.  I think the ship-of-fools poster had something in the idea that listening to our brother is healing in-and-of itself.

I see more of Christ in the notion of listening to the brother who feels wronged than in the 'repent or hit the road' use of this passage just for church discipline.  

I'm working on it, anyway.

Kari.

Kari -

Sshhhh!  Don't let Booty know I'm filling you in here...

Perhaps the most I saw him post on the Ship was pacifist/anti-war stuff, so look up old war threads.

:D Apparently they thought him too aggresive and warlike in his advocacy of peace and pacifism? :D

BTW, he was Brojees over there.  I wonder if that was his choice or their preference?  I've seen all sorts of choice language there... & they didn't accept "Booty"?  Hmmm.

No they do not specifically prohibit scripture and sorry if I gave that impression.

The Direct Action, How far would you go? Thread  carries the following header:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If there's something in society you think is totally wrong, how far would you go to stop it? Christians are supposed to obey the law but what happens when what is legal and what is right clash?

What about more hardline action? Boycotts and Demonstrations are one thing but what about sabotage? If you had a chance to damage a weapon made in your country that was about to be sold to a represive regime, what would you do? When are the more violent forms of actions O.K?

Any thoughts?[/quote]

There had been references to Romans 13 and obedience to government. I posted the following:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Acts 4

18. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
19. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
20. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

Acts 5

25. Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
26. Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
27. And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28. Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

34. Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35. And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:


Matthew 22

21. They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.


Paul's message in Romans 13 which is frequently interpreted carte blanche as demanding unquestioning obedience to authority. Paul's own actions in II Corinthians 13 contradicts this interpretation.


32. In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33. And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.[/quote]


Acts 4&5 of course being where the apostle teach by example that it is God that is to be followed not man.


Matthew 22 where Jesus makes the distinction between that which is Ceasar's and that which is God's.


The disclaimer of Blind Obedience to any and all government at all times Romans 13 is of course Pauls escape from the government of Damascus in the basket.


As many here know, I will occasionally post a passage or about of scripture where I feel the passage is clear and I do not wish appear to talk down to people who have a greater knowledge of scripture than my own self. I also see many passages in scripture which need no Brojees to deliver their message.

That apparently was not understood, (I think it must be my accent), and I was called up. Or it could be that I have just sensitized them so much that they will respond to anything I do out of the ordinary. (Of course that will mean endless responses to be sure!)

By the way, Moderators, please advise if discussing another board is not considered up & up here on GCM.

Booty, did you ever investigate the Ship-of-Fools site?  I've found it interesting to see scripture I've read dozens of times approached from another direction/tradition.

For example, last week there was an interesting discussion of forgiveness centering around Matthew 18.  One poster pointed out something I had never considered:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
[/quote]

I've always assumed the 'erring' brother had to repent, but it doesn't actually say that.  Just that he has to listen to my side of things.  

That really takes some of the steam out of our arguments, doesn't it?

Kari.

I, too, have sailed on the "Ship of Fools"; having a mere Apprentice status there, and posting only seldom, I haven't caused them to dislike me.  Yet.

Their format allows for much less flexibility of expression.  Lots more smilies, though, so using them to compensate becomes an art form.

They make me look ultra-mega-uber-conservative, too.

**********************************************

As for the "sinner" or "offender" not needing to repent... of course he must!  If he is truly in sin, he would benefit from repenting before God.

It's true there's nothing in that passage that says the world will fall apart if he doesn't apologise to me, though.

If he doesn't straighten out, then I'm to treat him as I would a heathen or "traitor/sleeze" tax collector, yes?

Who needs bloody feet?

*********************

Jesus controlled His tongue just right.

It was His whip hand He let loose a few times...

kmv,

I wonder if the word hear in those verses mean more than just listen with you ears. It may mean more like the word "heed".

I know in the gospel of John that Jesus said that those who would hear Him would live. So I think the word (if its the same Greek word) would mean more than just listen but also a response.

Ken

Definite good points, the listening and the healing thru consideration of each others' explanations of why the actions and why they offended.

The end result, if the situation is not resolved, is still isolation and expulsion.

But, before such a drastic end, there's all that blessed discussion, and the input from others so as to make sure we're really dealing with earthshattering sin, y'know, & not just personality clashes and opinion.

I've seen times the process was applied, and rightfully so.  Once, probably long, long after it should have been... but the leadership wanted to make sure very chance was given, counseling was offered, and prayer-prayer-prayer!

This was a relative of my husband... and it's his opinion that it should've been to the "tell church, & maybe even withdraw" stage a long time ago.

Kari,

Love can I wash your feet, they're bleeding?

Let's try another perspective. You come to me because I have been talking about you and your life disclosing things of a very personal nature that have caused you embarrasment. I ignore you and do not hear you. So you return with Janine and Patrick to repeat your plea. Janine uses her witty charm to break thruogh my stiff Irish pride and I understand your plea. I understand where I have been hurting you. I HEAR you.

Now as I am a Christian and I wish to follow Jesus, what am I to do?  Well I am to love my neighbor as my self. My talk concerning you certainly has not been very loving as it is indeed hurting you. So I repent, I change my point of view and recognise that I am gossiping and it is hurting you, Having repented, I endeavour to change because I have HEARD you!

All right? Now get off the point of the needle lass, you're tearing your lovely feet to shreds!

Booty & Janine-I think you're missing my point.  Which is not surprising, since I myself am not yet sure of my point!

I don't disagree with the church discipline portion of the passage.  I just think we're missing something; that there's more here.

I do believe Jerrybrooke is right -that we use this (and other) passages to justify the "God says I'm right and you're wrong" attitude.  

And I do think feel, no offense Booty and Janine, that dismissing the question as dancing on needlepoint is condescending.   Especially with no scriptural backup.  

Kari.

P.s. I'm going to have to go the ship-of-fools site to figure out which posts you made to tee someone off bad enough to earn a suspension.

I think the passage in question is a good and right example to use re: how to deal with important differences that are sinful or that will cause you to sin if you do not get some relief.

Including the progession to shunning & ending interaction with one in blatant rebellious sin.

Where it gets painful is when it's applied to stuff it oughtn't to be applied to.

In JerryBrooke's case, for example.  As far as those of us "here" can see, the folks have frozen out JB & wife, and like gossippy little old ladies made sure everyone else in their group... clique... also does it.  Over different understandings of Scripture, so they say.

Well, unless JB was physically knocking people over of a Sunday morning to wrest the microphone from his dad-in-law to rant his different teachings at the congregation, I can't see how this is an area where the Scriptures say he needs to be put out.  

Look at the mess Paul was hearing about in Corinth, and the teaching against it he did in two letters (that we know of).

The only recommendation he made about freezing anyone out was in the case of the man sleeping with his father's wife, something that was pretty blatant Jerry Springer-type material.

And he told 'em "Whoa!" when the shunning had the desired effect, the repentance & reconciliation of the man they were dealing with.

{I wonder if the father's wife was a member of the church?}

How is the way JB's in-laws are handing it anything remotely like what Scripture outlines?  And do their methods have a Nutty Buddy's chance in Hell of causing the (supposedly) desired result, the reconciliation of JB & wife with her Dad's church?

My choice Janine.  LOLOL!!! My reasons?!! LOLOL!!!!! You see when BH invited me over to II, I naturally used Booty not even thinking of the conontation it has for you yanks. Well to make a long story short, I took such cheek for it that I do not wish to repeat. The I looked at SOF and saw a similar format and regrettably some similar tactics. Looking at the makeup of the board, I decided it might be beter to leave them as little handles as I could to cheek my chin. So as "Booty" is actually spelled "B r o j e e s", it works for me. When I see the two words written in my mental enunciation it is exactly the same so it makes little difference. I would prefer when people think of me that the nick they know is properly enunciated, but.....


KMV I do hope you will take this in the manner in which I present it. As I said I may never fit in at Ship of Fools because it is quite liberal in my opinion. I also have a sharp tongue and can be quite passionate when discussing something about which I have strong convictions. Some things are absolutes to me and while I am willing to discuss them, I do not believe that I will change my stand. In discussing them, I can be and will be rather dramatic and at times rather blunt. Not every single drop of my blood is pure martin green, I do not quite have the exclusive Irish ability to consign one to Hell and have them shaking me hand thanking me for it. Seems as that I slept through the Gaelic flattery classes in first form. This verse from Job applies to my own self:

JOB 32: 21.  I will not show partiality to any person or use flattery toward any man.  
22.  For I do not know how to flatter, else would my Maker soon put an end to me.

But I am posting there to the extent that I am able trying to avoid the political threads, ignoring the flame baits and other activities. How long will I last? I doubt if for very long as I have already been called up again, this time for quoting scripture.  

One other factor enters in and this is my personal sin, which I must be honest and confess. The board is quite british, even the yanks that are there mainly appear anglophilic. While I know Jesus meant all neighbours when He said for us to love our neighbours, some demon deep in my very being keeps insisting that the Lord really meant to exclude the brits from the commandment or at the least allow us to simply tolerate them without loving them. They surely must have used up their 70x7 pardons by now? I am sorry, but my greatest trial is always to still my tongue with brits, Lord forgive me. I can say that I have not made a single anglophobe comment there, but I have sat at my terminal and thought a few.

But all this is solely my personal opinion.  I certainly do not wish to discourage any from frequenting the site.

I saw the thread in question, Booty.

The basic most polite answer sounded to me like this: 'not everyone agrees on the meaning of a particular passage, or even that the Bible ought to be applied to our lives, or even that the Bible is God's Word, or even that there is a God...'

There was a wish for an expository sentence or two from you, not just a chunk of Scripture letting the Bible make the point.

I don't know about that... I rather like it when an issue is cut & dried, or when at least the topic is blatantly obvious (even when people cannot agree with each oher's conclusions), so that a bit of Scripture neatly makes the point.

It makes for a certain elegance and modesty when a passage of Scripture says what you wanted to say, & does it for you... not your authority, not even your own opinion apart from the Lord, just what He said.

I think because of their format, you really need to edit for length & clarity when you post long pieces of anything, Bible or not.  People get impatient.

Successful posters of long things there (or anywhere, really) try to break up the big blocks of text.  That might help.

***************************************
Lee[/b]:

My opinion re: mentioning other boards is that it is certainly no sort of threat to Grace Centered Magazine, its message boards, etc., neither in general...

Nor specifically, because GCM boards have the best format, for both quick 'back & forth' and for posting of longer things, for scholarly stuff, clarity of quotes, etc.

I've not seen anything else "out there" that quite does the job this forum does... ain't seen any better moderators, either.;)

That's my opinion, anyhow.  Let us know yours.

I am registered, I just don't often log in 'cause it's a pain to remember to log out.  And if I don't log out each time I have this nagging, worried feeling, like I left the iron on!

And of course, not being a complete idiot, I do understand the discipline point.  But it feels like there's something to 'hear'-and only s1n4m1n has had any scriptural input on that point.  And I haven't yet been able to reconcile his(?) heed idea yet, although it seems to have merit.

Parenthetical point (Hey! I didn't know about the message deal.  I've got to log in more often)

Kari.

If we cannot find at least a place to stand where we can love the Christ, we are in trouble...

I wasn't put off by even the profanity on that site, as far as it being there, although I am generally put off by it.

I would be rather put off, though, if policy there is against quoting Scripture.  That would be wacky.

Kari,

Love!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes I "investigated" the site!!!!!!!! LOLOLOL!!! In fact this morning marks the end of my two week suspension that resulted from my "investigating" the site.

During those two weeks I have actually done more to "investigate" the site. I have gone back and read the history of the site and it's power structure.

I debate now whether I will test to see if my suspension has been lifted. My online fellowship needs are more than satisfied here in my brothers and sisters. Here I am the "Liberal", there I am "Conservative" underlined, squared and multiplied by 100.

Here I am immersed in Christians involved in the restoration movement, there I see a good number of Episcopalians/Anglicans. If I wish to talk with a Catholic that failed Latin, my own wee sister is quite preferable. Seriously though, for as many differences as exist here in the restoration movement, there is a certain commonality in belief and not what in my opinion would be anything goes Christianity.

There I see endless controversy and do truly believe I would be eventually booted from the boards for good, here I suspect we will all grow old together. My posting style does not fit in well with the community there, here my sharp tongue is tolerated. I am personally uncomfortable with the methods of moderation there and here I find the moderation comfortable.

But then there are Christians there who could instruct me and I might learn from.

As I said I am debating the issue and taking it to the Lord in prayer.

Yes, if he's sinning against God.  But here we're talking about sinning against each other.  

And the passage doesn't actually say that he has to 'take it back'.  I checked lots of versions, and it consistently says he has to 'listen' or 'hear', but doesn't say 'repent.'  Surely if God meant repent to be in this passage, He'd have made sure it was included.

I think there may be a point in this.  Sometimes we see ourselves as sinned against, when the other guy thinks HE was the victim.  Maybe we don't always have to decide who was right and who was wrong, just listen to each other.

Anyway, before dismissing the idea of 'listen' v. 'repent' or 'straighten out', I'd like to hear evidence.

Kari.

Actually, I am 1) apparently too dumb to register correctly and 2) too afraid of those folks to post.  But I really have learned some things-growing up CofC, I didn't get to know any interpretation other than the official line.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. [/quote]

This along with 2 John 9-10 is often abused.  Its used sometimes as a reason to not have anything to do with someone who disagrees with you about doctrine.  

KARI -

Doggone it, I wish you were registered... Are you?

Anyway, if you do go to the Ship, see the "Fields of Gold" thread in the All Saints category.

A supposedly Christian site, heavily frequented by folks who call themselves Christians, fussed at you for quoting Scripture?!? :0

I am amazed!

Perhaps they just wish you'd boil it down and reference it but not quote huge blocks of it.

Or, maybe they actually take offense at bits of Scripture.  Ther are several homosexuals there...  some witches/pagans/druids... hmmm...

Yes, a Booty could stir up quite a bit of trouble on the Ship...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How long will I last? I doubt if for very long as I have already been called up again, this time for quoting scripture.  [/quote]

In trouble just for quoting scripture?  

You know, when I picked my kids up from a visit to my folks today, my little girl told me her grandmother had gotten on to her 'just for taking turns'.  But I found there was just a bit more to it than that!

Hmmm...Don't know why that came to mind.   ;)

But I cannot see how you could get in trouble with the British majority there by being anti-war; you'd have to really work at that, I think.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]A supposedly Christian site, heavily frequented by folks who call themselves Christians, fussed at you for quoting Scripture?!? [/quote]

I myself am sometimes amazed at what folks will post on a supposedly Christian site.  Just goes to show...one man's absolute conviction is another man's ill-thought-out opinion.

Good thing God likes variety.  Good thing God has lots of patience, too.

I was going to suggest you stick around the ship of fools site to counter the liberalism, but the frustration of trying to 'enlighten the other side' is pretty rough.   ;)

And they've got way too many nausea-related emoticons for my taste.

On the other hand, I do think Christ is pleased when we try to find common ground with all His followers.  Even when we're absolutely sure we're right and they're wrong.

Kari.