Homosexual "Commitment Ceromony"

Talulah · Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 13:46:43

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Feb. 20 2003,1:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Even if a hearts-and-flowers day and a long life with her lesbian lover leads her to an eternal barbeque?[/quote]
I don't believe in hell and I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality.

Talulah · Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 13:59:56

Sometimes it is nice to be transparent.

ranger · Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 20:27:07

Richard,

I would attend the service and behave in a gracious and loving manner. Attending is not condoning. She probably knows your view and has been gracious enough to include you.

Think of Jesus and all those sinners he hung out with. Think of King David.

Ranger

Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 07:18:41

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 21 2003,07:12)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have a question! I've just always wondered if homosexuality could be a natural condition just like epilepsy is a natural condition that was misunderstood in Biblical times. Every homosexual person that I have known claims thay were born that way. Could the Bible be wrong on this if it was wrong on epilepsy? Is that possible?[/quote]
Only if sex is an uncontrolable action...sort of like epileptic seizures.

Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 07:27:01

You can control epilepsy with medication. I think sexual drive maybe could be controlled with castration?

Even, if you use the argument that a homosexual can choose chastity....if it is a natural condition (and I don't know if that's true or not) and people understood that, then maybe homosexuals wouldn't be so stigmatized....ostrasized...hated.....misunderstood.

I'm scared I'll be hated just for asking a question about it....there's that much prejudice out there about this.

KatC · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 10:40:59

Goodmorning..Since I deal with homosexuals at work, I have a heard time believeing that we should disassociate with them. Fortunatly, Those at work that are homosexual know that I strongly disagree with that way of life, but I have philosophy that Christ demostrated to us so often in the Gospels that should not be overlooked. We should Love the Sinner but hate the Sin. If I disassociated with Jason and Ron (both are in my unit at work) then how are they to know who Christ is?
BUT, I would not go to a wedding if Jason wanted me to because to others its saying that I believe its okay for them to live together in sin and its NOT okay. We shouldn't tell someone its okay for them to perish, we should be trying to help them and showing them though actions and by talking to them that they need to confess their sin, repent of the sin and stop the sin.

Also, I disagree with Talulah and the statement that "homosexuality is not wrong" Afterall, there are numerous scriptures that says that it is. Paul stated over and over not only in Corinthians but in several other letters to the chrurchs, that we should sustain from sexual immorality. Also, Does anyone see a corelation to the way God feels about homosexuality and Sodom and Gomorrah? IN Genesis 19:1-5 it states,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw the, he got up to meet them and bowd down with his face to the ground. 2. "My lords," he said "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "no," they answered, "we willspend the night in the square." 3. But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5. They called to Lot, "Were are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."[/quote]

Does anyone see a corelation of this historical event and his judgement with a sin of homosexuality? If he destroyed for it then, would he not condemn us to the "smoking stack" now if we don't repent of that sin?

Honestly, I wouldn't go. But that is mainly becuase I am uncomfortable with the whole Homosexual thing and I believe it is a sin that God would not condone. Its not natural and its not meant to be. God Created Man and Woman to be together. Not Man and Man or Woman and Woman. If I'm wrong about this, Im up for correction but that is how I read the creation of man in Genesis 2. (Genesis 2:21-25) I don't see any mention of God Creating Man to help comfort Man or Woman to help comfort Woman.

Other than that, Please let me know if anyone else sees the corelation in the fall of Sodom and Gommorrah and Homosexuality and other sins, or if that is just me..

jarschqua · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 10:54:52

i think judging is misunderstood.
judging is coming to grips in your mind with the concept that something is wrong. you have then judged. i say judge that homosexuality is wrong.
God wants us to judge in the above sense.
we don't have the ability judge in the sense of literally plucking out someone's soul and putting them in hell. that's not what i refer to shorty.
judging is taking a stance and sticking to it. that's what i meant. sorry if that wasn't clear.

i think if you are the only Bible that your sister will ever see, then you not only have to paint a picture of Jesus' love focusing on the path to forgiveness, but also tell her that God doesn't accept homosexuality.
i'm personally tired of this too-nice Christianity that has us afraid to say something is wrong. if you don't impact your sister in a way that she'll remember, you haven't impacted her.
you can't pull her from the fire by giving her coal wrapped in pretty ribbons, or tossing her nice looking flowers from a safe distance that only add to the blaze. her soul is at stake. to what extent will you go to change that?

a slow steady impact on her life, tempering love with telling her about God's judgement on the rightness/wrongness of sins like homosexuality is one of your lots in life.

nobody likes hearing that they are in the wrong. none of us wanted to hear that our sins were bad. but we had to know. and thank God someone was bold enough to tell us to our faces while also presenting the hope of our Lord to fall into.

Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 09:21:44

Shorty, but then we can find natural reasons to excuse pedophilia and murders.

If gay people were born gay, why can't pedophiles be born that way too. If chastity is a burden to heavy to carry for homosexuals, why not for pedophiles?

Jim Abb · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 09:54:43

There is one difference, significant IMHO, between Paul's instruction and the current situation. Paul is dealing with a member of the body. If we carry this down it's logical path, as Lee presents it, then Jesus should have never talked with the Samaritan woman, etc. If your sister is a member of the Lord's body it would alter the way in which we approach this. If she is not, we have more lattitude in our dealings with her. Having said that, let me offer my approach. I would not attend the "wedding" as I agree with others that the attendance at the ceremony does demonstrate support for it. But at the same time, I would invite the ladies over for dinner wih the family and would accept invitations to socialize with them. For me, at any rate, I guess this fulfills the old saw about loving the sinner, but not the sin.
Jim

winky · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 13:29:19

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is only, that the idea that anyone could believe that a person was born that way and can't help it, and even would never act on it because they believe it to be wrong but STILL be shunned because of something can't help it. The idea is appalling to me. It would be identical to believing it was a sin to be diabetic and the person denied the inherant diabetic nature, refused to take insulin and was still shunned because they are 'diabetic'
[/quote]

I have never heard of anyone (especially not anyone on this board but even in the most conservative of churches) shunning someone who has homosexual leanings but does not practice homosexuality. Seriously. The only people I've seen churches shun are those who are actively involved in homosexual acts and not willing to leave that lifestyle. Maybe I'm just sheltered. Has anyone else seen someone/some group shun someone simply for having those tendencies but not acting on them?

Renee · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 14:16:31

It seems to me that we as individuals are to be an example of Christ to others. When I look at being an example, I have come to realize that for me that does not mean me trying to change anything in the other person, but rather me simply being what God designed me to be and what I have grown to understand and be in Christ. I tend to leave in Gods hands the "what" and "how" my example affects others and if that example is of service to them. It seems to me that this is much what Christ did for us...He was the example for us and we are now in the process of letting that example form and shape us daily.

If my brother was gay and was in the process of committing to a homesexual relationship He would alread know that I believe this is against what God teaches. He would also know without a doubt that I love him and would be there for him through thick and thin. I could attend his committment ceromony, I could look both in the eye and tell them that I love them. I could accept them without accepting their present understanding of what is right. As others have stated ..Christ accepted us clothed in all our many sins but no one is misguided into believeing that He places His stamp of approval on anything that is sinful. He rather, shapes us via a process into the vessel He would have us be.

Renee

patriciaredstone · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 16:11:21

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I would go.

Marriage is not a Christian institution. It was being practiced even before Abraham. People from every religion under the sun get married and most often there is nothing even remotely Christian about it.

So would Jesus come? I don't see why not. Would he take note that the couple is the same gender and that it is not a perfect union? I think so. But he would do that in love. Perhaps, even with some dry humor... He certainly would not go with the attitude that "I am going to pretend that everything is perfectly fine." Why should Jesus lie? Why should you lie? Who needs that kind of stress? But your love and acceptance of your sister as a work-in-progess (as we all are) will be a special blessing to her and to all present when they know your true feelings and that you still came to wish her well.

Everything in scripture (even the sacrifical laws) are about the healing of Man and Woman. Two women being married is a failure of biblical proportions, but not a complete failure. With Christ, everything can be redeemed. At least these two women have learned to love and to commit. I have often seen (but, unfortunately, only with women) how a committed homosexual partnership can be a healing step. Often, the partnership creates a longing for a committed heterosexual partnership.

All is not lost with your sister. She wants your support or she would not have sent you an invitation. I think you should give her your support, but firmly, letting her know squarely where you stand so that your support is real to her.[/quote]
Lee has wisely informed me that there are several who are very troubled with my post quoted from page 2 above.

Even though I think the post is perfectly clear :D if you still have questions or doubts after carefully re-reading the post above, please feel welcome to send me an IM or post on this thread and I will attempt to clarify for you.

Sorry for any offense.

[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Feb. 21 2003,4:14--]

Renee · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 17:50:28

Janine..

I tried to send you an email but your box was full :D Nice to be popular. Thanks for the editing you did for me the other day.

Janine said...
Yeah, I know, Jesus didn't wait until I got it all right to save me. He made me right by saving me.
But, still I think the time to "be there" for them is when they have a poor pay week and you bring them some groceries... or when they get sick and you drive them to the outpatient clinic for a treatment... or when you go with them to the vet and hold their hand when they have to put a beloved old pet to sleep. That's "being there", being "Jesus with skin on".

I agree with you that these are ways to be there for another. I have just seen people in my lifes journey that needed things of a more intangible nature as well. Things like feeling accepted as a valuable human being warts and all. Feelings and emotions seem to be what drives us in this world for good or bad. My feelings about myself or others define how I deal with things and if I am cut off or made to feel less valuable than the next person I will probably behave that way. If I feel unloved inside I will probably emitt the qualities of a unloving human. And please everyone remember this ...we are all salesmen...we sell others on their own value as well as ours both directly and indirectly, intentionally or unintentional. We sell Christ daily by letting others see and hear His love witnessed to them through the way we handle the simple as well as the complicated times of our lives and theirs.

Janine..you are a blessing... I love the ability of yours to tare into things and look at them from all directions. Christ is shinning out and the love is beautiful :)

Renee

Talulah · Sat Feb 22, 2003 - 00:40:32

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Make up your mind, silly lady! Either the sexual union of two people is nothing, a sneeze, a passing of methane, or else it is too a God-designed magic which is a vital part of "two becoming one flesh". You can't have your snake and beat it too. [/quote]

What about in between? Pleasurable, bonding, a release and expression of effection. I never said sex was akin to passing gas.

WileyClarkson · Sat Feb 22, 2003 - 07:53:27

Booty,

The way I see this ceremony is that it is related directly to the sin they are openly involved in. They are basically flaunting the sin of homosexuality by having this psuedo marriage ceremony--as that is exactly what it is- as a way to skirt the law which does not allow same sex marriage in almost all states (in Texas, same sex marriage is expressly prohibited in the law). They are making a commitment in front of everyone to live openly as a married couple in a permanent sinful state. I personally cannot support that type of action. If it was one of my own kids doing this, I would not be there for this event. It would be adding fatherly approval to a continueing sin. That is a large part of what is occuring here. They are looking for defacto approval. By attending, you would be giving defacto public support to this action, unless you took public action in the ceremony to publicly denounce the sin that is ongoing. As a parent, the doors of my home would always be open for my child if that child was in dire need of help, but there would be a tough stance as far as the sin is concerned. The love would always be there, but I could not condone allowing the sin in my home. Removing the source of the sin and repentance, and seeking help and support to not fall back into the this sin would bring quick forgiveness, and cause the "the fatted calf" to be quickly slaughtered to celebrate the return of the child.

That is alot of how I see God's grace working for us. He does not condone the open sin. He cannot allow it into his house and in his presence. However, he continues to love us and leaves the door open for us to return home if we are repentant and trying to correct our ways. We may fall again but that door is always open when we come back truely repentant. However, as long as we flaunt our sin in his face and everyone elses faces, then we have stepped out of that grace that he offers. His grace is always there when we look and ask, and he is anxious for our return. His ear is always open as we ask for help and he always gives help in dire need. However, he does not ever condone continueing sin by allowing in his presence.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Curious, if one or both of the participants were waiting sentencing for embezzlement, but heterosexual, would some still shun the event?[/quote]

Seems to me there is a difference between the two. The embesslement has been committed, the participants caught (the sin is no longer being committed), found guilty (and probably very repentant in the case), and waiting sentencing. We are not supporting the on going sin of embezzlement by attending a marriage ceremony in this case. We are supporting the commitment of a man and woman who have jointly broken the law concerning theft by embesslement but are not longer commiting that theft, and we are supporting the couple as they wait their punishment which they will serve (ongoing embezzlement is not occuring and not what is at center stage) and be forgiven by society afterward. It is the commitment of the two people to each other while they are punished for the crime they committed but are not committing any longer. In this situation, I think God would expect us to be there!

My thoughts for the morning.

janine · Sat Feb 22, 2003 - 14:07:47

What Shorty said, Richard. :thumbup:

jarschqua · Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 13:02:02

would Jesus have gone?
if so, what would He have said and done?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 07:12:11

I have a question! I've just always wondered if homosexuality could be a natural condition just like epilepsy is a natural condition that was misunderstood in Biblical times. Every homosexual person that I have known claims thay were born that way. Could the Bible be wrong on this if it was wrong on epilepsy? Is that possible?

pdwblw · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 07:45:04

I would not go. I have a brother-in-law who is homosexual. This has not come up yet but the thoughts about him and his partner at family functions has been thought about by me. I don't really know if he is with anyone right now and the issue has not come up. I do struggle with dealing with such a situation. I just see going as condoning.
Patrick

Arkstfan · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 10:47:41

Would Jesus attend?

I don't know, but he sure went to some bad places and associated with some major outcasts. We know God will be there and see what happens.

I don't have any swell answers (though Patricia did a good job). I don't know the dynamics of your relationship but whatever course you take make sure your sister knows that you love her, you disagree with what she is doing, and that you love her any way and are available if she needs you.

I've been working with a woman who made some bad choices and got caught up in some terrible things and because of the people who turned their back on her she has struggled mightily in her relationship with God because she was left with the feeling that there would be no one waiting to put the best cloak on her, rings on her fingers and to celebrate and welcome her home. One church "family" she found turned its back on her when she had the first slip that they had been waiting for, instead of helping her back up.

I think we often miss an important element of the story of the Prodigal Son. Jesus told this parable at the house of tax collector with the outcasts of society all around him.

Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 11:59:04

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Talulah @ Feb. 21 2003,11:46)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I already gave my opinion (even though it wasn't asked for), others have given their opinions and now I see a discussion on whether people are born that way or not, and if people are born that way but never act on it, should they be dissociated from. :sarcasim: I don't have adequate or polite words to express my feelings about that so I just won't comment.[/quote]
Tululah: I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or provoke with questions. I was and am seeking better understanding of this issue and was thinking out loud. Please forgive me if I offended you...

KatC · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 14:22:27

Just for future reference.

Taluhlaa, I go to a very respected University and within that University is a professor who is "celebate". He speaks to the Students often about sexual purity and what Singles can do for Christ. He to has the 'no end to sight' type of life. If he can do it, WHY can't Homosexuals do it as well? It takes Strength and Faith and complete reliance on God but it is possible.

Kathie

janine · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 17:15:43

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm not sure that attending a wedding ceremony gives approval or blessings or anything like that. It's just being there for the person. If we focus on setting a Christ-like example, then I believe you are right...the rest is in God's hands. Christ accepted us, sins and all, surely we can do the same for our brothers and sisters![/quote]
Yeah, I know, Jesus didn't wait until I got it all right to save me. He made me right by saving me.
But, still I think the time to "be there" for them is when they have a poor pay week and you bring them some groceries... or when they get sick and you drive them to the outpatient clinic for a treatment... or when you go with them to the vet and hold their hand when they have to put a beloved old pet to sleep. That's "being there", being "Jesus with skin on".

To be there, "dearly beloved", at the wedding/ceremony, is to be a witness of something lifelong, and tied intimately into God's will, being inaugurated.

So what if people got married in some way before marriage became a "Christian" thing? God started the whole thing with a pile of red earth and a piece of prime rib! It's always been his deal, one way or another.

Sat Feb 22, 2003 - 18:49:53

Richard,

I had an idea and may be way off, but I wanted to share it anyhow. Your sister knows how you feel about her lesbianism. However, the event is a big event to her. Is it possible that maybe your sister is just trying to cover her bases here? She knows you don't approve but at the same time does not want to you somehow to be snubbed if she didn't tell you what was going on. Do you understand what I am getting at?

Look at it like this: suppose she were converting to Catholicism and you did not approve of that either. However, she could do it without teling you and risk hurting you even more that you were not told or she could tell you out of a desire to not be so "secretive" to someone so close to her that she loves.

Talulah · Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 13:25:05

I wish your sister a happy day and much success.

Booty · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 06:09:14

Richard,

With a dear gay cousin I can certainly empathize with you.

You have a very hard decision to make which you need to take to Him in prayer, on your knees, in fasting and in that dark place where you can be totally in private, just you and Him.

While we, those of your brothers and sisters on this board can offer advice, what you need more from us now is prayer. Prayer that you may find an answer that will serve Him.

The good Friar, (My other cousin) and I have corresponded about Lawrence and his wee friend with whom Lawrence has shared a faithful loving relationship for oh so many years. We do not have an answer because neither of us can find it to condone this relationship, but neither of us can toss Lawrence either.
With Lawrence, I follow these guidelines. I have talked with he and his mate. They are quite aware that I believe they are living in what I personally believe to be sin. They also are aware that I believe their lack of repentance is a very dangerous defiance of God's will. They also know that I do not agree that this is a "natural" condition brought about by some element in their physical being over which they have no control.

Beyond that we follow a normal relationship. They are welcome in my home and I in theirs, (LOLOL Their wee cottage screams Machisimo & Testosterone !! Why?). We talk and correspond frequently, Lawrence and Liam have graciously offered to take Sandi and myself in when and if we have to run from here. He was the first in my family to do so and certainly is the one the most attentive to the news from here. Candidly Richard, that offer is a very valueable one. They are located in an area where I could offer my services and commence the rebuilding financially that will be required if we flee. Of course though Lawrence is also outcast from the clan much as I am to a certain degree.

L&L have not attempted to formalize their relationship yet, when and if they do I will face a decision similar to yours and I am not the full shilling, no Solomon here. As they know my convictions, I expect they would invite me but respecting my beliefs, I believe they would not ask me to participate in any significant way. For my own part I would like to think that I would accept the invitation with the clear understanding that I would be uncomfortable and as is my practice when I am in an uncomfortable situation I would pass my time in prayer. Somehow I am certain that Lawrence and Liam would respect this and I also trust it would be acceptable in the eyes of our Lord. T the Friar, (He calls me "The Preacher"), has decided on a similar course of action.

But then in all honesty Richard, I very seriously doubt the L's will ever decide to formalize their relationship, too many years have gone by and they have legally managed to establish a relationship where each has the rights a spouse would have. Liam is the cute hoor, he formed them into a corporation years back so the "Surviving Partner" retains control of all assets of the corporation including the testosterone cottage and the vehicles.

Thank the Lord then that I may never be faced with your decision. Richard I will be on my knees for strength and guidance for you. Vaya con Dios mi hermano.

janine · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 08:05:40

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You can control epilepsy with medication. I think sexual drive maybe could be controlled with castration?

Even, if you use the argument that a homosexual can choose chastity....if it is a natural condition (and I don't know if that's true or not) and people understood that, then maybe homosexuals wouldn't be so stigmatized....ostrasized...hated.....misunderstood.

I'm scared I'll be hated just for asking a question about it....there's that much prejudice out there about this.[/quote]
Any sex-related sin causes an uproar. People are such babies about it. Not that it isn't vitally important... we ought to take Bible stances on stuff... which includes a lot better responses than virulent hate, for sure!

People are so lopsided. It gets to a weird point sometimes. In my advocates' training when I worked with battered women and sexual assault survivors, they tried to teach us some sort of bra-burning/free women from sexual tyrany approach to dealing with rape. "Rape is not sexual, it's about power!"

I wasn't the only one in the class who came back with a "Whoa!" It sure is about sex - in that, the rapist uses the victim's own sexuality, her sex-related body parts and society's own skewed look at gender and sexuality, as a weapon OF power. See what I mean? I was never sure the instructor "got it", though. She was so thoroughly indoctrinated with this "sexual abuse hasn't anything to do with sex/men are beasts" mindset...

People get "indoctrinated" about homosexuality, too, either against it to the point of violent idiocy, or they try to be so very neutral about it they end up condoning it. Only by holding the Lord's hand can we be led through the maze without bashing into one wall or another.

Talulah · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 10:46:06

I would be interested to know, if, without using the bible, anyone here could tell me what is wrong with homosexuality. How is hurts people, why it is wrong, etc.

PS...(you can't use the word gross.)

Talulah · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 12:50:14

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Tululah: I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or provoke with questions. I was and am seeking better understanding of this issue and was thinking out loud. Please forgive me if I offended you... [/quote]
Don't worry, you didn't offend me, I understand the questioning nature of your posts.

It is only, that the idea that anyone could believe that a person was born that way and can't help it, and even would never act on it because they believe it to be wrong but STILL be shunned because of something can't help it. The idea is appalling to me. It would be identical to believing it was a sin to be diabetic and the person denied the inherant diabetic nature, refused to take insulin and was still shunned because they are 'diabetic'

I know Christians have all these theories and nuances, but it really is that simple to me. I respect it if you believe it is wrong to act on and is a choice, that is your choice to make, but it is just downright silly to believe a person is wrong because of an inherant quality that isn't acted upon.

edited to add: however, no matter what you think about the matter, spend some time with a homosexual man, observe the way he acts, talk to his family that knew he was gay when he was a very small child, the kids that bullied him and made fun and called him 'fag' his entire life, and see if you can make yourself believe he wasn't born that way. I don't particularly feel comfortable around gay men, but I can see there is something there that I don't understand that makes them that way.

(Not trying to be antagonistic, just stating my honest opinion)

[!--EDIT|janine|Feb. 21 2003,08:07--]

Talulah · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 14:33:38

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (KatC @ Feb. 21 2003,2:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Just for future reference.

Taluhlaa, I go to a very respected University and within that University is a professor who is "celebate". He speaks to the Students often about sexual purity and what Singles can do for Christ. He to has the 'no end to sight' type of life. If he can do it, WHY can't Homosexuals do it as well? It takes Strength and Faith and complete reliance on God but it is possible.

Kathie[/quote]
Because one person who choses to be celibate as a personal choice (and you don't live with him and aren't inside his head to know what he feels) isn't the same as mandating that EVERY person who is completed and fulfilled only in a same-sex relationship should be celibate for their ENTIRE lives.

I have heard people say that the reason for all the scandel in the Catholic church is because of celibacy but the same people will say that homosexuals should be celibate. It is hypocrisy.

janine · Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 17:09:08

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Your comments on men and women read like you think the two are unequal halfs that form a whole when together... However, I don't agree. I think men are men and women are women and no mystical union happens when they are together. They produce children because that is biology, nothing more.[/quote]
OK, everyone who thinks sexual intercourse is nothing more than another bodily function, like blowing your nose or voiding your bowels, raise your hand... but wash it first. :p

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[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]...one person [chosing] to be celibate as a personal choice... isn't the same as mandating that EVERY person who is completed and fulfilled only in a same-sex relationship should be celibate for their ENTIRE lives.[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]...men are men and women are women and no mystical union happens when they are together.[/quote]

Make up your mind, silly lady! :D Either the sexual union of two people is nothing, a sneeze, a passing of methane, or else it is too a God-designed magic which is a vital part of "two becoming one flesh". You can't have your snake and beat it too.

Richard · Sat Feb 22, 2003 - 21:30:16

Barry,
That thought has occurred to me. I don't think she will be surprised when I decline.
But I still have to decline. And I have to be honest about why. ( I can't just make up some excuse, like my cow got sick or I had to wash the dog)
Paul told us we must always speak the thruth in love.

Richard

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