Christian Forums

Curious, I see a difference in tactics with legalists as well. By example the various ads and websites by legalists to shun and defame their more open brothers and sisters. I suspect also more rumoring as well. Is this a common observation?



And yes this comes from the one who refers to Legalists as Taliban. Something which I feel the need to make perfectly clear here if I could veer off track for one moment.

First, I do not live in the USA and I am not subjected to the same media as your lot. My news comes mainly from the European perspective with BBC being the telly news I watch, (Oh we have CNN, but it is horrible and slow!). My written news comes from the Irish Times and Reuters. For this difference perhaps, I do not think of the Al Queda and Taliban interchangably. The Al Queda we consider to be the Terrorist group dedicated to causing havoc with the western world. The Taliban we consider as a tribe of legalistic Muslim zealots who came to power in Afghanistan and then amongst their other imprudent actions, naively gave refuge to the Al Queda.

Second, we routinely refer to our legalistic brethren here as Taliban and they refer to us as "Jipis", (hippies). In no way are we referring to them as terrorists, nor would we. They are not referring to us as promiscuous drug addicts either, nor would they.

Third, I feel at home and safe here at GCM. Perhaps this leads me at times to drop my guard and speak in an unfettered manner with those I agree with and those I disagree with, but in love and in a family manner. My culture is a culture that would be and is considered confrontational and insulting. My baby sister, the catholic, we call "Mother Inferior" and my cousin the Friar is the "Papist". They call me the "Heretic"! This is not a lack of love, quite the contrary, it is an abundance of love.

Fourth, I have an established history here of using the term Taliban to refer to legalists and that we use the term here is something I have noted in the past for any who care to check the threads.

Recently I used the term when referring to a brother here whom I perceived to be acting in a legalistic manner. As is my wont, I painted a vivid word picture with camels galloping and black turbans flying. That occasioned offense on the part of my brother which was never intended on my part. I have since sincerely apologized for the offense he felt and I believe clarified myself to him. We have communion if you will.

Apparently others are still upset at my use of the term although I have taken the time to apologize to them as well. I believe now though I must say simply that when your brother has repented, it is seventy times seven that you are to forgive. I have repented of the use of the term because I see how easily it can be and is misconstrued.

I also repent of my imprudence in treating this board as the family that I considered it to be. This makes me sad, quite sad. I also see a current proliferation of more legalistic brethren arriving quite possibly due to the notoriety the Unbaptized Believers article has drawn. Oh do I know now not to even think of calling them Taliban here! But Taliban or not, their presence is and will continue to make this board, this haven of grace, an increasingly uncomfortable refuge.
As this is my english refuge where I can discuss matters with my brothers and sisters in Christ in a tongue I am less likely to misunderstand or be misunderstood, this truly upsets me. I see where some are currently giving thought and consideration to leaving. I well understand as the thought has certainly passed my mind as well. Living in a country on the precipice of civil war, I certainly do not look forward to a contentuous environment here in my refuge as well.

But I trust in my Lord and for the present believe I should stay here to try and keep this the grace filled refuge I have come to love. It is sad though, very sad.

How did we arrive at this state with increased sensibilities and accusations of "unChristlike" flying back and forth? Harsh words and terms being traded by brethren? Where is our love of Him fleeing to?

When do we return to the point where our problems are limited to one unruly athiest?

Isn't a legalist anyone who is theologically to the right of me and a liberal anyone who is theologically to my left?
(written tongue in cheek)

First to ensure all understand. Josh bestowed complete edit rights of his post on me not only by his post but also in a seperate pm prior to the post itself.  He desired that I edit anything I personally found offensive.

With that made perfectly clear, Josh I see absolutely nothing offensive in your post. I fully concur with your use of mayself as an example and do believe it does serve a good purpose. First, you and I have made our peace and I believe come to know one another quite a bit better in the process. Second your use of the IRA analogy is quite prophetic.

I am a staunch Irish Republican. I am involved in Irish matters and support Sinn Féin. I dearly desire to see Eíre ruled by Irish, all thirty two counties, and will dance the proper jig when the last of the british soldiers departs our shores. Thus I share many ideals and goals in common with the Irish Republican Army and/or it's various permutations. But I totally reject and deplore the despicable methodology the IRA employs to obtain these goals.

Thus a casual reference to me as an IRA would be quite offensive. Event though a brit friend of mine calls me IRA in jest frequently, out of the context of the friendship we share, yes certainly the IRA label would cause me offense. Just as the Taliban label caused Josh offense.

But something I believe should be pointed out to all, as I sit here at Josh's feet learning. My imprudent "Taliban" certainly was not the first label to be applied here. Some others very strong have appeared recently that are shocking. And as Josh so sagely points out, these labels are not edifying in the least.

I suggest it is time for all to pause and learn from our example, perhaps Josh and my contention has served a purpose after all, (in addition to allowing me a better understanding of a brother), it has served as an excellent example of the danger of labels.


Josh to your post, may I add something?


AMEN!

Those who think it is easy or cheap to embrace grace.

Hello dear ones,

I check in on you from time to time...time being the one thing I don't seem to have much of these days.   We are expecting child #6, but there are some complications.  Please pray and we'll keep you posted.

That said...a pastor and author I admire, Jim Fowler (www.christinyou.net), has written an article on legalism that most likely has something to offend just about everyone.  I submit it for your perusal, and am interested in your thoughts. :lookaround:

Love and blessings,

OD

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The comedian, Jeff Foxworthy, has gained worldwide fame for his "...you might be a redneck" jokes. Here is a take-off on his routine, referring instead to "...you might be a legalist."

If you think the 10 commandments are still authoritative for Christians today...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that abstinence is a virtue...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that what our country needs is better moral values...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that God's Law should be imposed upon Americans as the law of the land...then you might be a legalist.

If you think the Law represents God...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that God's Law can effect right living...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that socially-imposed conformity to ethical rules is valuable...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that a man can keep God's principles and precepts...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that its only right that everyone gets what he works for...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that there is a right answer and right action for every circumstance (if you could just take the time to figure it out)...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that obedience is doing what the rules indicate...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that what people think about you is important...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that most people just don't measure up...then you might be a legalist.

If you feel frustrated and defeated in that you just don't seem to be able to do it all right and perfect...then you might be a legalist.

If you are burdened by self-condemnation for your failures in life...then you might be a legalist.

If you're afraid that people will get out of hand if there aren't clear-cut rules...then you might be a legalist.

If you believe that the King James Version is the only real Bible...then you might be a legalist.

If you feel guilty for not coming to church services every Sunday...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt guilty for only putting $1 in the offering plate on Sunday...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that tithing is the standard for Christian giving...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt naughty or sinful for playing a game of cards or rolling some dice...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt guilty for driving up in a new car, or buying a new dress, or even a new home...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every worried about what others were going to think about your new hair-do...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every thought that you can tell a person's spirituality by the way they look and how they dress (their swimsuit, leotard, skirt length, etc.)...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever tried to impose your perspective of modesty on another...then you might be a legalist.

If you men have ever felt condemned for having taken a second look at a beautiful woman (in a short skirt)...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that Christians shouldn't practice birth control...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever taken off jewelry or wiped off make-up to capitulate to another's religious scruples...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever hidden your TV in the closet to conceal it from another legalist...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever judged another by the length or color of their hair, or the number or placement of their earrings or tattoos ...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever looked down upon another for their living arrangements...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that divorced people have somehow forfeited their right to spiritual honor and leadership...then you might be a legalist.

If you've thought that the way your kids turn out would be the basis of your evaluation as a Christian parent...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt superior to, or looked down on, or were prejudiced about people of other races, or condemned interracial marriage...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every felt out of place in the video store wondering who might walk in and what they might think...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever been concerned that someone might see you having a glass of wine (or even a beer) with your dinner...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that people who smoke tobacco are disgusting and sinful...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever told your kids not to do something because other Christians might see them do it, and it would impinge upon your reputation..then you might be a legalist.

If you've looked down your nose at those in more liberal denominations...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every thought yourself pretty tight and right with God because of your correct doctrine and moral behavior...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that to associate with those who think different than you is sinful compromizing...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that those who don't believe in "once saved, always saved" are unorthodox heretics...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that baptism by immersion under water is the only way to be right with God...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that those who don't believe in a pre-tribulation, premillennial second coming of Jesus are misguided heretics...then you might be a legalist.

If you get all excited about prophetic speculations about the future...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that the visible expression of spiritual gifts is evidence of one's spirituality...then you might be a legalist.

If you have ever thought that God would be more pleased with you if you were willing to go to Africa as a missionary...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever tried to cover up your flaws, and represent yourself as something you aren't...then you might be a legalist.

If some of these exposes make you uncomfortable, raise your dander a little, or cause you take offense...then you might be a legalist.

If you want to challenge and debate some of these issues...then you might be a legalist...cause legalists love to fight and feud.

If some of these have hit you right where it hurts...then you might be a legalist...

BUT aren't we all, to some degree?

I ditto Charlie's definition.

wendy:

thank you for saying what i hoped someone would say.
renee did a good job, too.

dj

Jim has brought up a good point about being a church legalist and a legalist in our daily lives.  

I would definitely have to say that I am a legalist in my daily life and with my family.  I have definitely broken away from my legalistic beliefs when it comes to my daily walk with Christ and my worship practices.  I think it is hard to get away from that totally.  I know my understanding of scripture and freedom in Christ is so different from what I grew up believing.  Now though I can almost be legalistic in my grace centered beliefs by not being too tolerant of the legalistic beliefs.

Susie

booty you are truly a man after God's own heart, and i appreciate your peace making and the heartfelt commitment and contributions to your family here! and Amen! to you as well!...

for the topic:
here's a link i'm sure you will appreciate...
http://www.equip.org/free/DL300.htm

Perhaps because we worry about changes in structural integrity being life-threatening...

I'd rather call the Bible a recipe.

Not that some of my culinary experiments haven't seemed life-threatening... :goingtopuke: