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I am in and expect to stay in the church of Christ because of its awesome potential as a tool of the Lord to develop Christians.

I cherish our teachings of seeking the Bible for answers, our teachings that it is wrong to impose a matter of liberty or opinion on others and the emphasis on God's relationship with the individual who serves as a priest.

I consider them important enough to stand my ground against those who teach pat answers based on traditional inferred interpretations, those who impose opinion and tradition on others or use them as litmus tests and those teach God's plan belongs only to the group and who follow the clergy of our church.

Maurine,

Thanks for the reply.

Quickly --
You write of, "the "works" in James is love, the law, the covenant, the ONLY rule that we as believers live under

Marc,  From your comments before I knew that we were kindred spirits but then you quoted Emily Dickinson and it was sealed.  I have been searching for a poem by her about baptism that was so moving and haven't been able to find it.   If anyone can locate it please share with me.  grace, Julie

Skip,

Not quite sure what you mean by generalities.  I know I referred to specific verses in my posts, and what you refer to in your post is exactly what we're talking about.

As far as practical application of Love--as you say, that's what the whole book of James is about, and it is something we have discussed at various points on this board.  I recognize my failings in this area, and am attempting, with God's help, to grow to become more like Him and to make my Christianity more practical.  This is a challenge that has been particularly real to me since I taught the book of James in a class a year or so ago--largely due to the verses you quote above.  Personally, my most honest expression of this was probably in something called "unaware" that I posted on the Artists/Writers board some time back.  What I wrote about there I am guilty of, and I continually ask God to help me in this area.

This has also been a particular concern in our congregation.  Some of the things you mention aren't particular problems with us--we don't have any wealthy to defer to, for instance--but other things, such as helping those who have real, aching needs in the name of Jesus, frankly, we have difficulty with.  Discussions we have had recently have revealed that our first step toward becoming more Christ-like in this area will have to be becoming aware of the needs of those around us.  We have become an isolated community, and are hardly even a part of our neighborhood.  

But we're commited to moving in this direction.  I honestly believe we will only be successful if we turn to God and depend on His strength to make us servants.

Exactly. ;)

Janine, that has to be one of the cruelest stances I have heard of from supposed believers. What an indictment of sectarianism!

Thank God for people like you and your husband who are not allowing yourselves to be crippled by this blight. How is that any different than the 1st Century rabbi who when asked why God made so many Gentiles, replied; "So there will be no lack of fuel in Gehenna."?

I have been reading of one of the early Restoration Movement preachers, T. B. Larimore, who preached at the Christian Church, the Presybyterian Church, the Baptist Church, wherever anyone wanted to hear the Word. I suppose Larimore would find it difficult to preach at the congregation which refused to baptize the man who is so deathly ill.

Some of you are old enough to be familiar with those partially-cheesy, faith-uplifting books from the Eisenhower years, when churchgoing was serious businesses.  Our DoC Hampton Adams wrote, "Why I am a Disciple of Christ", as part of the self-same series "Why I am a (your church here)"; and Adams ended w/ a chapter "Why I remain a Disciple until."

What about YOU??  Why are you a member of the churches of Christ, DoC, churches of Christ/Christian churches??

I mean this to be positive and uplifting, folks, bros. and sisters!!

I appreciate being a Disciple due to the diversity and freedom; I shall remain one until they stop serving fried chicken at the potlucks!

Your turn!   :D

I am a member of the church of Christ because the Lord added me to her when I submitted to follow my Jesus into His death, burial, resurrection and eternal life.  Therefore, I remain, as long as He HAS a death, burial, resurrection and eternal life.

I bring a lot of chicken to a lot of fellowship meals.  No wonder I always look for someone else's dish, something as un-chickeny as possible.  Spinach quiche, maybe.

I'd still stay if the quiche were no more, though.

I, too have been immersed, therefore adding me to the Lord, making me a member of His church.  And, I attend the coc.  For many years, I like others, have just accepted the things taught, since "they know more than I do".  In recent years, I am challenging this chain of thought.  A short time back, during class, someone was making the point that "The Baptist "almost" have it right, but unfortunately, they are still wrong".  It suddenly hit me!  Shades of Luke 18:10-14!!!! I can find nowhere in the Word where this attitude is ever taught nor encouraged among brethren!  The church at Corinth was divided and as wrong as it could be, but Paul still addressed them as "the church at Corinth", and "Saints" and "Brethren".  What is wrong with the coc picture?  What we have done is make salvation a works oriented thing - you must do this and that, can't do this or that, and if you err, you are wrong and headed for hell!! Nowhere does the Word teach this prinicple.  And if it does, could someone out there point me to the place that does?  May all have a Blessed Day in Him.

skip, the "works" in James is love, the law, the covenant, the ONLY rule that we as believers live under. The example is right there before you. All through scripture it is about how we love one another, not how well we keep our regulations. If we share with one another and love each other deeply and show mercy instead of judgment and carry each others' burdens then we fulfill it all. What serving-Him-only is seeing is that judgment of others is NOT fulfilling the law of Christ, nor is it mercy or walking humbly with our God--that is God's requirement.

Maurine

I feel called to be in the Church of Christ, when and if God calls us to move elsewhere we will go. I have often experienced the feeling of "why people don't want me to be a member of the CofC".

Like Ark, the reason I stay is the potential. More than any other group, our unstructured-structure positions us for big breakthroughs as we grow and develop. As a movement, we tend to encapsulate outside of the conventional norms of institutionalism, and I think this both protects and endangers us. It protects us from outside invasion, but it also endangers us from infection within. We have a history of being our own worst enemy. This usually comes from hyper-sensitivity to our purpose. I agree with Kebecer that we are in a pretty fine stage of growth and are primed and ready for some kind of breakthrough. I believe that as Christian groups go, we are most gifted -- that is equipped -- toward ecumenism. As a woman, I still see our movement as harsh. Nevertheless, I predict that the church of Christ will be the denomination to produce the best in biblical-feminist theology when the time comes ... Historically, the last to let go has the best reasons for doing so. We can be very thorough when the mood strikes us.  We are tentative, but most of the time, I see this as a gift.

I continue to be a member of the Church of Christ because I value what I have gained here:  a respect for God's word, a relationahip with God and a belief in personal--not just congregational--autonomy.  In other words, I continue to be a member because I see the foundations of the movement as being good, pure desires that, even though they have been corrupted by a couple of centuries of tradition (which in turn were laid on the previous two millenia of tradition) have in them the seed to clarify our relationship with God and get us back to the basic truth of Scripture--we belong to Him, He saves us, all we become is because of our relationship to Him.

I am not saying these are qualities exclusive to the Church of Christ, only that these are the basic ideas that keep me affiliated with the CofC.

As to Maurine's comment, I believe that at least part of what she was referring to was that James 2:15-16 clarify the verses that come before and after.  Do "deeds" (or "works" if you prefer) and "doctrine" mean the same thing?  I don't believe they do.

Everything comes back to our relationship to God and our letting him change us to His image.  A faith that does this produces deeds, and is indeed a living faith.

marc, thank you, that was my point. I become amazed why people miss what James is saying about works, as it always becomes more about our "do's and don'ts, instead of our loving actively. So many scritpures tie in with it, and we tend to skip those over. Jesus put it most succinctly (sp) when He asked Peter if He loved Him and responded to him 3 times to feed His sheep--showing love to God is sharing and taking care of one another--the ONE rule for believers (Romans 13:9-10). I know the rest of you have heard this from me, but this is to clarify things a little for skip. Our "doctrines" mean nothing if we do not love.

Maurine

marc / seekr

Thanks for your replies, but ... I'm not sure that I fully understand your point.

I'm leery of practical (or doctrinal) generalities.

For example, if I was driving to Atlanta, and the best encouragement that I can get from my navigator in the passenger seat is that it "feels like" we're going the right way, but, uh, well, we don't have a map ... I'd get nervous.

In the same way, when I try to make a point, straight from the Scripture, that works / deeds / doctrine are, indeed, important, but I get responses along the lines of ...

"The "works" in James is love, the law, the covenant, the ONLY rule that we as believers live under...

One thing that makes it difficult to talk with any degree of intelligence about a church of Christ is that the sign out front just doesn't tell you much other than the group inside believes that once you have heard the Gospel and believed its message that the next step is to be baptized by immersion and that they observe the Lord's Supper weekly.

Once you get past that you can find a pretty wide range.

But then isn't that the heart of what makes us a group based on liberty in Christ?

We've strayed so far from the original topic here that I feel compelled to connect this somehow.  How's this:  One of the reasons I remain with the Church of Christ is that we are allowed to move, to act on our own, to make Christianity practical--not just something that is practiced behind stained-glass window.  I was taught from the time I was a child that Christianity is practiced by individuals and was raised by people who lived out Christ's concern for others in their lives.

I never did make an until statement.  I'm not sure that's a path I want to go down.

Good afternoon! I have been reading through the threads the last few days, brought here through a link at the CRA.  

After reading through many discussion topics and trying to digest as I have gone along, I must say that I am thankful to my parents and for the minister, church secretary, Bible School teachers, elders and deacons at the physical church I grew up in and attended for close to 48 years before my husband was transferred to a different area in Ohio.

I was taught, first and foremost, the love of God...the unbelievable, overwhelming, mind-boggling truth that the Creator of the Universe knew and loved ME, and that he loved me so much that he kept to His plan, from the fall of Adam and Eve to the sacrifice of his only, beloved Son.  I was taught that I am His by His grace.  

I was taught that from the Old Testament to the New, the threads were carefully, painstakingly, beautifully woven into a tapestry that could be held up to and would withstand, any scrutiny. I was taught at a young age to begin reading the Bible, and encouraged to read it from cover to cover as often as possible.  

I was taught to memorize Scripture, to ponder it, think about, meditate on it, and apply it to my life so that my life would be a reflection of His, and people I came in contact with would have an opportunity to see Jesus in action.

I attended Sunday mornings, Sunday evenings, Wednesday mid-week services, Vacation Bible School (for several years we had 500+ children and 140-160 teachers and helpers attending VBS -- many different denominations had children enrolled in our program) and evangelistic services, and I loved them all.

Having said all that, right after high school I stumbled badly, and it took 10 years for me to realize that His way was the only way to live, and live abundantly.  So many people prayed for so long, and welcomed me back as though they were the parent, and I the prodigal son (put daughter in there, please).

I belong to the brotherhood of instrumental Christian Church/Church of Christ.  I read a post this morning from a fellow who said that in the instrumental churches of Christ/Christian churches he was aware of, they didn't have much to do with the restoration movement, or weren't very aware of it, and he certainly couldn't have been speaking of the majority of Christian Churches in Ohio.  That said, the church I grew up in understood that the restoration was a work in progress that was begun in the 1800s.  There is much left to do.

I did not belong to a church that practiced legalism in the Pharasaical sense. We do believe that we, as the multitude baptized by Peter and the apostles were, need to be buried in baptism for the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit as Peter said they should be, and as Paul said in Romans, ..."all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death.  We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we now may live a new life.  If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." After baptism, the new converts were taught and equipped so they could grow and mature and bear fruit.

We partake of the Lord's Supper each Lord's Day.  We have small group studies in our homes as the early Christians did so that we can nurture one another, pray for one another, bear one another's burdens, study together, laught and cry together and be a witness in our neighborhoods by example and invitation.

My grandparents began attending a non-instrumental CoC and their experiences were much different than mine.  Grandpa and I had many spirited "debates" on the music issue, I can tell you!  It was different going to their church, although I did not care whether there were instruments or not.  I did notice a singular lack of joy in their assembly, however.  Sunday school was lecture time, church was lecture time.  There was no VBS, and to my dismay, I later learned that I was lost eternally because I attended an instrumental Christian church.
My grandfather developed liver cancer because of the painting occupation he had been involved in, something in the red paint got in his system through cuts from the metal he was painting and accumulated in his liver.  He lived for almost two years rather than the promised six months, and near the end, I came upon him suddenly and found him in tears.  I asked what was wrong, and he said he was agonizing over the fact that his son, daughter-in-law and grandchildren were not going to be with him in heaven...if that was where he was going.

It took me about 15 seconds to get myself to the phone and call one of the elders and the evangelist of his church and explain to them I wanted them at my parents post-haste, that my grandfather was dying, as they well knew, and instead of the peace he should have had, he was agonizing because we were lost.  And as lovingly as I could, I told them that we were all immersed believers, faithful to God's word, and since there was no possible Biblical proof for our damnation, they needed to come and put Grandpa's heart/soul at ease.  They did, and he was able to put most of that aside.

How the Father's heart must ache for his children! He has given us the whole Bible, not just a few verses here and there, but he has given us the whole Bible to learn about him, to learn his ways, to know him. We can prove any theory, any religion we want, if we take a few verses here and there.
We get nowhere.  

It's like the 10 blind men and the elephant, remember that story?  Each man described what the elephant looked like based on the part of the elephant he was touching, and none of them were ever able to put the whole picture together.

We take that rich tapestry that he wove for us, and we pull and pick at the threads until it's nearly in pieces, and then try to call those pieces a tapestry.  We may be able to mend and patch and stitch, but it's a sorry substitution of the original.

I thank God, always, that He is a God of grace.  I also thank him for being a God of order, and for having enough trust in us, his creation, that he revealed himself fully in his Word.  Time is growing shorter, and there is a whole lost world that needs to see Jesus and know him and love him, NOW.

Sorry this was so long. May His grace and peace be with you!

Thanks for the picture, Sonlight.

I've a sister-in-the-Lord right now who's nursing her dying husband as I write this.

A life-long Presbyterian, Bobby came to understand through exposure to her church (our church, a church of Christ), through Bible study more intense than he was raised with, that while he had 'a lot on the ball' where his religious life was concerned, he hadn't yet included being immersed into the Christ for the remission of his sins.

So, he was convinced that he just might not be pleasing to God if he wasn't immersed... he was convinced that he needed to be.

He would not promise to repent of all those horrible evil ol' Presbyterian teachings, though.  He would not forsake lifelong friends and associations by instantly tossing aside his membership in the local Presbyterian church, to worship only with us.

So, our elders & preachers refused to baptize him.  Both he and they believed that, according to Scripture, he would fry in Hell after death if he did not submit to Bible-style immersion.  And they refused it him.

He got his Presbyterian minister to baptize him.

I don't know if he yet guessed at that time just how sick he was... as of now, the cancer looks to have invaded his brain, since he's started having seizures.

Can you believe (a) that they denied the man something they knew would contribute to his salvation, and (b) they've followed up since then with further denial that he will be Heaven-bound when he dies... which will be all too soon, unless the Lord intervenes...

My Mike has gone into the Scriptures with them and reassured them.

Janine, I will keep your friend and her husband in my prayers. The minister at our church baptized many people in our congregation through the years who went back to their churches, and quite a few of those sent their friends to be baptized, also.  I know of a couple who began having the Lord's Supper in their homes on Sunday because their church had communion quarterly, monthly, whatever.  These people, if they were allowed, witnessed where they were.  If they were no longer allowed to share their belief, or the teaching went too strictly against their new-found faith and understanding, they came and served with us.

For many years, the apostles and the members of the first century church worshipped in their homes and in the temple courts, winning many to Christ, without fear of "pollution" or "backsliding."  Their joy was uncontainable. We have so much to learn from that first liberated group of believers...why do some not understand that the Pharisees were condemned by Jesus, over and over?

I look forward to fellowshipping with you all, we have much we can learn from one another.

kebecer1, that is a fair enough question and one that probably deserves some serious reflection.  But first, the Churches of Christ also have "literature" on the subject of "Why I am A Member of the Church of Christ.  Leroy Brownlow's "classic" has probably done as much to shape grass roots opinions in the CofC as any other thing.  I read it as a youngster and in my first ministry position I was required to teach the teenagers with that book.  But that is us at our potential worst.

I have given lots of thought as to why I remain in the acappella Churches of Christ.  I have been tempted and have had the opportunity to preach both in the Independent Christian Churches and the Disciples.  But I have remained.  

I have remained because I agree with our foundational vocation -- that we have always followed (at our best).  That vocation is that we Christians Only, not the Only Christians.  That we seek to unite all Christians on the basis of God's ultimate truth.  That we recognize the freedom of every disciple to study for themselves. That we exercise the liberty of not passing judgement.  As Rubel Shelly wrote in his tract (then book) I Just Want to Be a Christian.  And for the most part I feel that I have been able to do that in this fellowship.  As for our "peculiar" doctrinal beliefs I think that the growing ecumenical consensus is that we are "right." on those points -- and I appreciate that as well.

It is true that we have at times been rather harsh towards others.  But I submit that is by no means a trait limited to the Churches of Christ.  And I also know that there has always been an irenic, grace and spirit centered stream flowing through the Churches of Christ.  What some scholars call the Lipscomb-Harding-Armstrong tradition has been such a stream.

Blessings,
Bobby Valentine
[a href=\"mailto:bvalentine@dixie-net.com\"]bvalentine@dixie-net.com[/a]

You asked, so here are some thoughts...

Mark 12:34
When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.

Jesus spoke in nearly the same terms as your fellow student, "The Baptist "almost" have it right, but unfortunately, they are still wrong"...

Also, concerning works, consider the words of James...

James 2:14-17
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James is pretty blunt.
He makes works a salvation issue -- "Can that faith save him?" - and points out that a faith devoid of works is useless - dead.
Being spiritually dead is not a good thing.  

I'd recommend that you read the entire book of James. Carefully. Note how James ties the inner person, the spirit, to the results - how one lives and manages their tongue.
James reads like an exposition of the words of Jesus, in passages like Matthew 15:17-18 --

17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man."

So ... how, then, might Jesus (or you or I), see what is in a person's heart?
By what proceeds out of their mouth, and by their actions.

Finally, consider also the writings of John to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

Note that Jesus (in the NAS version wording) commends or rebukes the churches largely on the basis of their deeds. Note as well that the church in Thyatira is specifically rebuked for tolerating "Jezebel" - who has perverted their worship back into pagan practices - "acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev. 2:18ff).

I wish for the best for you as you seek the truth.

bobby v,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]As for our "peculiar" doctrinal beliefs I think that the growing ecumenical consensus is that we are "right." on those points -- and I appreciate that as well.
[/quote]

I'd be interested in what you believe those points are. Thanks,

OD

Julie--is this the poem?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I 'M ceded, I 've stopped being theirs;  
The name they dropped upon my face  
With water, in the country church,  
Is finished using now,  
And they can put it with my dolls,         5
My childhood, and the string of spools  
I 've finished threading too.  
 
Baptized before without the choice,  
But this time consciously, of grace  
Unto supremest name,         10
Called to my full, the crescent dropped,  
Existence's whole arc filled up  
With one small diadem.  
 
My second rank, too small the first,  
Crowned, crowing on my father's breast,         15
A half unconscious queen;  
But this time, adequate, erect,  
With will to choose or to reject,  
And I choose—just a throne.
[/quote]

Here's the link:  Bartleby.com  

They have Emily Dickinson's complete poems posted.

Honestly,  I did not ever go to another denomination to worship or fellowship before giving up my faith.  I did go to a Baptist Summer Vacation Bible School once just to be with a friend but never had any desire to be Baptist.  If I ever did come back to faith I would probably go with the CoC again simply because that is pretty much all I know.  This is not to say I would think the CoC is the "true church, Inc." but it really is the only point of reference I have.

As a boy I attended the Episcopal church. It was a high church and I still remember sitting in the cold, gray cathedral and watching people in robes from far away, doing something incomprehensible. This was not their fault, it was just my boyhood impressions.

Later I drifted to the Methodists, and they were not as abstract to me as the church of my boyhood, but I did not take what they were saying or doing seriously.

Finally, when I was in the Marine Corps, at Officer Candidate School in Quantico, VA I began to be aware of a huge vacuum in my spiritual life. I discovered a little congregation of the church of Christ meeting in the American Legion Hall in Fredericksburg, VA. The minister, Bob Winter and his wife Nelda, invited me to their home frequently. They fed me with good food, rich conversation, and answered, in a gentle and warm way, all my questions about God and Jesus.

I was baptized into Christ in Alexandria, VA and Bob Winter said to me; "You will love the church of Christ, because it is a fellowship of free Christians who have the liberty to explore God's Word without any human constraint. Bob was such a wonderful optimist and idealist.

I wish I could say I found his statement to be uniformly true, because realistically I did discover many people exactly as he said, but I also discovered a kind of spiritual Gestapo who seemed determined to impose their creeds and the matrix of their belief system on me and anyone else who would submit to it.

Still, I stay where God planted me, taking it that he has called me to a post of responsibility. As Solzhenitzen wrote;
"I see that all the paths to righteousness are not barred, ...and you have led me here beyond despair...."

The journey continues....

God bless you sonlight.  You are right on target.  

mrbill