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Hey, Susie!

" I sort of feel she is trying to shock me with things she tells me."

Well, yeah, of course.  She's found out that God more than likely will not zap her with a lightning bolt when she does this... she's revelling in the "freedom" that sends a toddler, shrieking with laughter, toward a busy street, glancing back over her shoulder at the "parents".

Sure, the "parent", the more mature one in the scene, is fearful and angry at the rebellious little one.  But, just because some statistical percentage of "parents" lose it & react in anger & beat the child's butt, does not give you & me the go-ahead to stand by saying nothing.  So say something, and say it true, with the same balance of "stern" and "loving" a good parent would use.  You'll regret it forever if you don't speak up while you have access. Circumstance, job changes, drug use, all sorts of things could close off the connections between you & these women.

"This includes not attending any church also."

So many of us stand on our ideas about not needing to "go to church", and is the 2nd-millenium idea of a "worship service" even Biblical, and if you're a Christian you're in the Lord's church anyway... All those lovely things.  I don't think you're ignoring all those ideas.  You said:

"friends falling away from God... It is the whole attitude and speech and some lifestyle changes that clue me in..."

So, from that I know what you mean about your friends falling away.

It would not hurt to use the occasion of the wedding to put something heartfelt and written together, which would keep you from leaking the anger on her.  Include some stuff along the lines of "you are my friend... I long for the best for you in life and in death... no marriage works as two people alone, God needs to make it work, put Him first... God bless you and your new husband... please know that I will want the best for you always, even if time and circumstance lead us apart..."  True stuff, but not too depressing, and not focused only on the potential hurt to come.

No holier-than-thou stuff creeping in, no dirge... make sure there's some joy in it... Write it up "pretty" on your computer, print it on parchment-looking paper or something wedding-ish, so she'll keep it as a memento... Maybe frame it, if it's not too mushy and personal...

Then, she'll either have your loving concern as a guiding light when she turns back, or, if the "crash" you fear comes into being, she'll remember from the bottom of her pit of despair that at least you cared for her.  That may be the thing that lingers in her mind to lead her home.

Do something similar for the other friend, maybe from the point of view of the lifelong blessing her kids are, and some Proverbial stuff re: kids rising up & blesing her, and what a blessing kids are, and how you hope the best for her family as they follow God all their days, and so on.  Frame a "pretty" copy for each kid, even if it'd have to be put away as a keepsake for one too young to enjoy it now.  Put their names on them.

What you're after is the opportunity to speak the truth, in love of course, but truth nonetheless, and if you put it in writing & make it keepable they'll read it more than once.

I know from your posts you can write.  You can do this.  If you did need help with a turn of phrase or an incorporation of Scripture, you know the people on this board will help.

Susie!

You've already recieved some very good advice, so I'll limit that and pray for you and your friends.

The key is to act as Jesus would and that means as has been said talk with your sisters let them know you care and don't be the first to turn from them.  After all if you avoid one or both of them where will they be able to see Christ?

Bill

Love is a risk. Loving these friends means that you wish them to be well spiritually. Oh, that all of us had friends like you, who care enough to be hurt about some bad spiritual decisions we make. How much worse it would be if you did not even care what happened to these people.

God certainly plans to bring them back, let us trust they care enough about coming back to Him. We cannot control this, for they are not automatons, nor would we want them to be.

There may be many reasons your friend has picked a person who basically appears to be an unbeliever. She may not feel she deserves anyone else; She may be one of those people who do not understand the destructive patterns that lead them to repeat serious relational mistakes...who knows?

Now, as has been suggested, your role is to be loving but wise, not preachy or condescending, but to say honestly, and out of love, that you are deeply concerned about her.

Thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart.  You all gave wonderful, wonderful advice.  A variety of things to try also.

Janine,  My husband and I tried today with the wedding card some of what you suggested.  We included some, but I was afraid to be to "preachy" in a card at the wedding,


so  I had us tone it down some (may not have been a good idea).  The friend who got married is also family (my husbands oldest niece), so I have great hope in her.  I guess we have been leaving it up to others to speak up, but since she attended the same church we did (the rest attend somewhere else), I wondered if we knew something others didn't.  

Bob, your ideas on my friend and her marriage choices are "right on" I believe.  I think she is just more concerned with finding a guy who will truly love her and be a good husband to her.  I just want her to know that marriage is hard enough, noone can make it without putting God first.  

Janine, Thank you for the thoughts on my friend shocking me.  You are probably right.  

The bad thing with my other friend (a very close friend) is that if I come out and ask, she will lie to me.  I know this for sure.  She will keep this up, until she figures out her life isn't working and then she will admit to lying.  Unless she goes to far away.

I think they are both forgetting about God because everything is going well in their lives right now, with family and jobs.

Spurly,  I think the one friend is testing me to see if I will be there for her. She knows too well, how I feel about all of this. She also knows that I seem to take it bad when someone falls away.

Seeker,  I do have a tendency to want to "fix her".  It has been a relationship of her asking for advice and me giving it.  She asks me for advice about "everything", except not now about her spiritual life.  She seems to be avoiding the issue by telling me shocking things.

Booty,  I think I will try your words with my friend who I believe will lie, maybe it will be a way to get her to open up.

Well, you all have made me see that I do need to say something, quickly.  And above all else, pray!!  I wish christian women would marry strong christian men to lead them and not let them pull them away.

I know not attending church is not a way to judge someones relationship with God, but I also know it is the first step to falling away. Usually!!  I have also been told it gets easier and easier to stay away and pretty soon you aren't even thinking about Christ.

Thank you again, you have given me much to try and I will.

I love you all,
Susie

Susie

I think I know what you mean as well as where your husband is coming from.  When a person begins to do something that even they believe is wrong, they will avoid friends who might point out their error.  Is this rejecting you, possible but it is also probably guilt and fear that is keeping them from you.  I'm certainly not an expert in any of this but sometimes people will avoid the very people the want help from.

You and your friends are in my prayers.

Bill

I don't like the manmade term "disfellowship", nor the more laughable "dismember"(!), but the thing with Isnaldo looks like one of the rare times when it is beneficial to the Body and maybe necessary for the future salvation of Isnaldo.

The usual silly scenario for a U.S. church "disfellowshipping" someone is ineffectual, because it so often is not done while the "culprit" has any connection to the congregation left.  He has usually in effect disfellowshipped the congregation already.

But, ol' Issy is promoting the ideas of public drinking, sexual sin between church members, and frankly, a 14-year-old is not a woman, so there's pedophilia rearing its ugly head... all while he publicly identifies himself with the Lord's people, even if it is only to say that he hoodwinked them & wasn't really converted...

Never be ashamed of honest tears, Booty  ({hug hug hug}).

Brojees,

I am sorry for the situation you found yourself in as well.


BH

I probably did not describe this new post well, but here goes.

I have really been bothered lately with friends falling away from God.  At least I suspect (pretty sure) they are.  It is the whole attitude and speech and some lifestyle changes that clues me into this belief.  This includes not attending any church also.

I am a little unsure how to approach this.  I have a problem with the whole " removing the plank " concept, which makes it hard for me to speak up.  

I am very concerned and worried, but I am also angry about it which is another reason I am afraid to say anything.  I might say too much or the wrong thing.
I definitely have a problem with this anger thing when it comes to this issue.  I cannot understand "why" anyone would leave God especially for the "world".
There is more than one friend in this situation.  One is getting married tomorrow to a guy who has been inside a church building twice in his life (once, when my friend brought him).  A year ago, she stopped dating a guy because he wasn't a christian.  She said she wasn't making that mistake twice (she is divorced from a real "worldly" jerk).  Exactly one week later, she started dating this guy she is marrying tomorrow who is a non-believer and from the day she started dating him, she has been to church one time in an entire year when she brought him for everyone to meet.  I flat out do not know what to say to her or my other friend.  They both know what is right.  I am fed up and do not understand.  They both act like everything is just great.  The other friend is the one I am really worried about.  More probable case of not ever returning to God if she totally leaves.
I need some help with this.  I only know to pray, but feel I should "do" something.  Kids are involved in both cases, which is so much worse to me.  How can you not teach them that God is what is important by words and actions and not worry about their salvation.

I would love some input and prayers because I am very mad at them.  I have even been avoiding one because she is driving me nuts with her attitude and thoughts.  But I know I am wrong.  I sort of feel she is trying to shock me with things she tells me.

Help!! Please!
Susie

Susie

Before all, PRAY. Invoke the power of the Holy Spirit. Beg Jesus to use you as His witness with His prodigal daughters.

Remember that some are incapable of paying the high cost of Jesus,  

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Luke 14:26.  "If you want to be my follower you must love me more than your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, more than your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.[/quote]  

In 1 Corinthians 7 we find Pauls lesson which is directed to the unsaved. Some use this to justify marrying an unsaved person.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]12.  Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a Christian man* has a wife who is an unbeliever and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her.
13.  And if a Christian woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him.
14.  For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not have a godly influence, but now they are set apart for him.
15.  (But if the husband or wife who isn't a Christian insists on leaving, let them go. In such cases the Christian husband or wife is not required to stay with them, for God wants his children to live in peace.)
16.  You wives must remember that your husbands might be converted because of you. And you husbands must remember that your wives might be converted because of you.
17.  You must accept whatever situation the Lord has put you in, and continue on as you were when God first called you. This is my rule for all the churches.[/quote]

Does this apply to the Christian who leaves the Way for a carnal love? Was this to whom Paul directed this teaching? Does this justify marrying the sinner? I am not sure this was Paul's intent, rather I see in this passage an exhortation to the unsaved upon becoming saved. The cases you cite appear to be the opposite, saved forsaking salvation to unite with the unsaved. From what you write I do not see a desire to evangelize the unsaved partner either.

But then when does sincere concern for our spiritual brothers and sisters become judging? Are you judging you friends by worrying over them? Do I judge my brothers when I try and attend to our two prodigals, am I in judgement when I label them prodigals? Are they sinning against me personally when the leave the Way, may I invoke Matthew 18:15?  

Or am I to simply go to them and inquire as to their state with the Lord? And should they appear to lie and ensure me all is fine, how do I proceed?  Yes they would be lying to me and yes that is a sin against me, but how can I say what is in their heart? Do I not accept their assurances with words like, "Sister I accept your response as the truth trusting that you would not intentionally lie to me, your sister in Christ. I trust as well you do understand my concern for your spiritual well being as worldly appearances had led me to believe you might be falling from the way. I stand ready to assist you in any way as you seek to convert your intended, would you consider bringing him to our home for dinner on a frequent basis after your honeymoon so we may share your joy as you begin witnessing to him of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"

Love the idea of Janine, I thought of doing up the story of the prodigal? (Changing it to prodigal Daughter of course!), but delivering it with the clear explanation that it is "in case they do fall from the Way" not that they have fallen. Leading someone to their error subtly is better than slapping them in the face with it.

For you though personally, Susie, you may be rejected. Perhaps you might find comfort in the following verses, Mt 8:28-9:1.
Our two prodigals are Angel and Isnaldo, please add them to your prayers and we will certainly be adding your two to our prayers, Susie friend 1 and Susie friend 2.

Now go forth in the power of the Holy Spirit and the Love of Jesus Christ with the Blessings of God!

Susie

Why would you really feel anger? Sometimes we need to go to God to ask Him "why" this response is in ourselves. Loving concern is a good thing and God can fill you with peace and compassion for whatever your friends are going through. What always matters is the outcome, which we may not see for years or ever. Those things are not up to us. I have been so backslid in the past, it came close to destroying me...and God's response to me was love and compassion for the pain I lived in. I have also had friends and family who were worried about my choices and I had many judges and I could no more fix myself than I could save myself. I spent years in the world and did things that would shock others...but that did not make me "unsaved". God has used these things mightily in my life to create compassion for those so hurting that they make choices that wound. Sin has a way of showing us our great need, even after we have come to the knowledge of Him. Remember the tax collector and how he could not even lift up his head toward heaven. Even with your friend that tries to shock you...I understand that. She is probably wounded from things in her past or even in the now and maybe sees hypocrisy in others who are not as honest about who they are. It is never about the flesh, the outside, but the heart, and that is something that God works on and knows. Some things take a lifetime to create healing. I do not see this as negative, as I believe we can lose our salvation from arrogance and lack of loving and that God can use this time in your friends life to bring them to the foot of the cross. Ask God to fill you with His love for your friends and keep them in prayer. Going to church is never a gage of someone's spiritual life. Whatever the enemy intends for evil, our merciful God can change for the good no matter how it looks or how long it takes. Some of the best Christians around, deny the sin within, when confession (which may include falling into it) could heal. May love abound.

seekr

As a youth minister, I face this situation a lot.  Student who I love, who I pour my life into, walk away from God and wander off into the world.  

What can I do when that happens?  I've learned that all I can do is pray, continue to encourage them, and let them know that when they get to the point where they land flat on their back, and they want to come back, I'll be there to welcome them with open arms, just like God will.

Good luck.

Bill, thank you and you are right about me not turning away from them.  I realized I was wrong in trying to avoid last night when I posted.

Does this sound crazy?  But when friends reject Christ,  I sort of feel like I am being rejected also.  My life is just so wrapped up in God and service.  My husbands says no, they aren't.  I say then why do they avoid us and other christians?

Does anyone know what I mean?
Susie

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (susieface @ Aug. 25 2002,01:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Bill, thank you and you are right about me not turning away from them.  I realized I was wrong in trying to avoid last night when I posted.

Does this sound crazy?  But when friends reject Christ,  I sort of feel like I am being rejected also.  My life is just so wrapped up in God and service.  My husbands says no, they aren't.  I say then why do they avoid us and other christians?

Does anyone know what I mean?
Susie[/quote]
Yes, you are being rejected as well. I know the feeling.

Be careful though that you not use this as cause for resentment and close yourself to them, remember that Jesus taught us to love our enemies.

By the way Susie, I received very disconcerting news last night. Isnaldo, one of our prodigals, (or so I thought); has been denying his baptism for convenience. Apparently when he has been seen openly sinning, he has been asked, "Isnaldo I thought you were a Christian, weren't you baptised?" his response has been "No". I am afraid that I have no choice but to believe him. Had his baptism been sincere, he never could respond in the negative like this. Accepting the veracity of his response, we will not be sharing the Lord's supper with him any longer.

I just responded to a PM inquiring what our sermon was based on this Sunday. This Sunday's sermon addressed the issue expressed above where one of our baptised brothers has taken on the idea he can pick and choose when he is baptised. He made unwelcome advances, drinking, to one of our younger sisters, (14). She challenged him asking how he could attempt such a thing with his spiritual sister, or for that matter any woman, in that he was baptised into the family of Christ. He responded that he was not really baptised. She rightfully came to me and I have discovered it was not the first time he has made similar denials in similar circumstances.

The sermon was about the utter futility in lying to God, how He knows our hearts. Reference texts follow:
1 Corinthians 11:27,Matthew 5:8,Matthew 8:19-21,Matthew 12:34-36,Matthew 13:19,Matthew 15:7-9,16-20,Matthew 22:36,37,Luke 15:16,Acts 8:13-23,Acts 15:8 God, who knows people's hearts,Romans 2:11-24

It also was about my personal image with the congregation. No matter how libertine I may appear in respect to some of my more tightly wound brothers in the pulpit where inconsequential matters of tradition are concerned, I am very jealous when it comes to matters of this sort. Yesterday I took our prodigal at his word openly and publicly. As he is not baptised by his own admission into the family of Christ, he has no part of the communion of our Lord.

Not a pleasant experience for me, I cried in the pulpit, I need spritual hugs today.

Booty.

Booty,
 I agree with Janine.  What a shame!!
I am sending you hugs and I am praying for you and this wayward soul.

Susie