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Why stay? Perhaps because you feel God has given you a mission to testify to his graciousness and this is where God has placed you to be faithful. Perhaps you know the language and the problems and the struggles, and you'd have to relearn all that in some other place. Then, you love the people and want to serve them and you need their encouragement.

Why leave? When all hope of spirtual growth is cut off. When controlling and negative persons suck all the life out of you and reject what is important. When to stay means you will die a slow spiritual death and wither into a solemn cynic.

Socrmom:
Several different thoughts jumped to mind when I read your post...

There is no church  (no local group of Chistians, I mean) who are capable, as a group of 20 or 50 or 300 or 5000 people, of preaching/teaching/doing all that God would have them to, 100% of the time with no human error.  Sorry, not gonna happen in this world.  Not gonna happen in this household, or even in my heart.  Too much humanity, too much "world" in each day.

Deciding to go or stay when troubles arise is such an individual thing.  Sometimes I remind my husband that the apostle Paul didn't write the church in Corinth, with all their blatant problems, and call them an apostate church or no longer brethren.  They were addressed as brothers and sisters, as a church, and helped to see some things they needed to deal with... It'll be a long time before any congregation I've known personally ever reaches problems the size of Corinth's.  You have to go pretty far out there before you can say "this isn't even the Lord's church any more"...

If the problems can be addressed at all, you stay and address 'em until there's a standstill or until they push you out, I think.  Pray- A LOT.  Factors may lengthen  or shorten your time of patient waiting for a clear, unavoidable call to go.  YOU may be able to stay and serve and love for years until things improve, or until problem people leave/die off, or until others of like mind to yourself join in and shift the critical mass of thought on the problem areas.  But, what if your spouse is a new Christian? What if your little kids aren't yet old enough to understand how to balance what you're teaching at home versus what they learn in Bible class, if that's one of the problem areas?  What if the best your teens can get out of going to their classes and youth gatherings, is to learn patience dealing with people, but not much Bible?  It's tough explaining things to them in such a way that they prosper in their individual relationships with God, and yet continue to function with & edify the group they're in, while it goes through a less-than-edifying phase.

There are literally days when I tell my adult child & older teen child that they're to go on to Bible class, to respect everyone (especially the teacher), but that they need to go whether or not they think they'll learn anything.  I explained the Catholic concept of penance to them; maybe sometimes all they accomplish is penance by going to a stale study group! :D

Preliminary peeps at the study we're just starting in the silver-haired class, seem to indicate that the leadership wants to bind tithing on us...  I see some lively classes coming up soon!  First, the Christian is held to a higher standard on a lot of things than folks were under the old law (not commiting adultery vs. not even looking & thinking about it; being eager to exact the eye-for-eye penalty vs. absorbing the hurt & forgiving; not murdering vs. not even simply feeling hate for your brother...).  So, if you're gonna drag in a tithe, the Christian needs to give more than that!  Also, how do you bring in a tithe without a grain offering and a heave offering and a scapegoat and a prayer shawl and... ?  Should be some good classes, if the leader handles it correctly.  

Seems like, any area in which I feel a lack in the local church, I ought to step up & try to cure by volunteering to handle it myself.  Take a burden off someone else, so to speak.  Since I'd offend people in some men-only areas, I can't help there, so I continue to pray about it.  Other areas I'd be blessed & thanked if I took over, such as young kids' Bible classes; but, I'd be expected to stick to a pre-fab curriculum, not always a very inspired or even correct curriculum... complete with 1950's blonde kid pictures, unless someone thinks of specifically ordering a multi-culturally illustrated series...  I think a kid ought to be able to see himself in the materials, and we have a multi-ethnic, multi-socio-economic, multi-racial congregation...

I could blather on and on with such an interesting topic, Socrmom.  I guess the idea boils down to this: If your family can continue to grow in the church environment, and if blatantly wrong doctrinal error can be addressed if it comes up, you stay.  You may have been set there by the Lord to help to raise that congregation up closer to Him.  They may have been put there for you, to back you down from some beautiful-seeming doctrinal stuff that just ain't where the Christian needs to go.

If participating in the life & worship of the congregation puts you in a position where you can't live as a Christian or where even basic participation would cause you to sin, and when you try to address it you're either pooh-poohed or shut down completely for "agitating" or divisiveness, get out.

God bless you & yours, Socrmom.

Doesn't it feel like adultery sometimes, when we get to use talents and strengths for God's glory somewhere other than among our local church family?  Just a little, flashes of it, until we shake it off & say to ourselves that the congregation just has no place for our gifts at this time?  

It does for me, some.  Of course, immediately after such a thought comes up, I remind myself that either the brethren can't find a use for my gift, so it's no loss to them, or that I'm exercising gifts elsewhere keeping them limber until the day when I can glorify God with them in my home church.

I have been enjoying this board, and learning from you all for some time as a "lurker".  Finally decided to join.  This site has been an encouragement to me, as people express their thoughts and viewpoints without being shut down, or out, and the discussion really does seem to go back and forth.  How refreshing!!

I have a question for those who are still in a very traditional COC congregation, and don't fit the mold.  (I may be making a wrong assumption here, but at least a few of you seem to fall into this category)  Why do you stay?, or Why did you leave?  Now I know this can be touchy, but I would really like to hear some reactions.           Thanks.      Socrmom

Hi, soc'r mom.  I'm a baseball granny.  You have asked a good question.  I don't think any "church" is completely accurate in doctrine and the people I worship with try hard.  I stay because I love the old women, and the old men, and the young women, and the young men, and the children, and the teens, all the individuals that I have come to know.  I go forward, one step at a time, loving this one, and that one.  I can't leave because Lord Jesus might want to assign one of them to me for a hug, or he might want to use one of them to teach me something.  I guess I will leave if Jesus ever kicks me toward another congregation, but He hasn't yet.  May God bless you.

Bob,
Your reasons to why leave were my and my husbands feelings exactly.  We had basically given up on any change, at least in this decade(wanted kids raised differently than us). I was definitely sucked dry.  My relative is the senior minister there and my entire family and I mean entire family are very active members there.  Bless them, they are still fighting for change(figuratively).  I am so thankful to be away from it, the fear of offending and complainers.  The minister is really trying, but it is slow going.

We stayed as long as we did out of love and loyalty to family(physical) and committment to congregation(my husband was a deacon also).  I still love that congregation and the christian family there.  I pray for it often, but it was time to go when you start dreading being there, which was a feeling we had never felt before. I had grown up there.

I do not understand the resistance to changes or to the relationship with God vs. legalism. What is wrong with joy? Christ died for us, people. It is time to celebrate that and live it.
Susie

It's a strange idea I have, but then would that surprise anyone here?

Susieface, What say you recharge spiritually, then head back full of grace and love!  Once you are once again depleted, head out for another recharge as well. Once recharged,.... well I believe the idea is clear....

What a mission!!  What a challenge!!! Isn't the Lord simply amazing with the opportunities He gives us?

Imagine all those sad people seeing your smiling radiant spirit filled face showing up each few months!!! Imagine their curiousity, imagine thier interest. Imagine them heading out to be recharged with you!!

Don't just tell them of the alternatives, show them!!

I am one that left. I left because about 3-4 years ago my world shifted totally on its axis and my view of everything changed. As I re-evaluated my life church was one thing I identified as a problem. I found a congregation that was blended leaning mostly contemporary but as time went on I discovered their changes had not been heart led but rather a business decision to increase numbers. The elders liked the increase in numbers but never bought into the changes. When the old heads started complaining they sided with them and reversed course.

The things that had attracted me there were ripped out from under me.

Maybe it isn't accurate to say I left.

Thank you Bill and Booty for your comments.  Booty, we do visit, some, but I have to say it is depressing.  I have to admit we can not stand to miss our own worship services.  It is also hard because some are still somewhat upset with our leaving. We are almost embarassed to show our happiness when we go back. It is hard to go back right now is all I can say. We and our kids have grown beyond our wildest dreams. It is like the happiest place on earth, because it is so grace and serving centered.

It is  so hard to leave a congregation though. It hurts you and the people you leave.
Susie

I know that no one leaves a church home without a whole lot of prayer and thought.  There are so many factors to weigh out.  I am so blessed at this point in my life with opportunities to witness and share the love of Jesus with other suburban moms like myself, and their families. Being used by Jesus is such a humbling experience.  I so want these Christian babies to be raised in a family that God centered.  

 And yet I have such a difficult time expecting them to accept the things I have accepted due to "that is how it has always been done" mentality.  Why can't I make an announcement about the ministry that I lead?  Why won't they show that fabulous video expressing thanks to teachers?  Because it has beautiful music using an instrument!!!.  What about my young daughter being raised where women have no public voice?  Are these things just not that important?  No, they are not.  These things are all outward appearances that sidetrack us from focusing on our God.  But, as you can see, I am wrestling with these questions.  This is not the direct result of church problems, this is really just my problem.

I know there are no easy answers.  As God has used me to reach out to others, the contentment with status quo has become much more difficult for me.   Thanks for listening.

Wow, you all have been reading our mail!  I printed this entire thread out for my wife to read last night.  She was so encouraged to see that "we're not the only ones."  (She already knew that, but affirmation is a powerful thing.)

The times that we have chosen to leave congregations have always boiled down to a lack of confidence in the leadership.  Either the eldership was not shepherding in any sense and were simply administrators, or their leadership was extra- or un-Biblical and man-centered.  My wife and I were both converted by the "Crossroads" movement in the late 70s, left that for the mainline churches in the late 80s, and actually stepped outside of "the church" for a period of time in the late 90s and worked with one of the many "community" churches that are springing up all over the place.

The community church with which we worked actually promoted itself as "a church for those who are dis-enfranchised with church as usual."   People are heading to these churches in droves.  Now, I recognize that a large number of these folks are responding to these churches adapting zealously to the culture, but I also found that there were many deeply spiritual people that were running from the same things we were:  legalism and traditions that carried the same authority as Scripture.  As I compared notes with my new friends who were from a wide variety of church backgrounds, I found that what many of us here are experiencing is common throughout Christendom.

We left the community church three years ago (another crisis in leadership, the minister was intent of following the Baptist's senior pastor model of leading and after our Crossroads/Boston experiences we didn't need any more icons!)  We have landed back in the friendly confines of the churches of Christ (we actually moved across the city to accomplish this...)   We enjoy great preaching, invigorating praise and worship and a large number of ministries and programs to both meet our family's needs and allow us to serve.

However, even though we know there is a core group at our current congregation that is seeking the Grace Centered path, we are still frustrated by the comments that we hear in our Bible classes and small groups that indicate that a large part of our fellowship is still locked in legalism and tradition.  I facilitate one of the midweek small groups and try every week to get our friends to think outside of the box.  I'm beginning to understand, however, how wide and long and high and deep are the sides of this box!!  I agree that we are placed here by God for a period of time to minister and serve, but we wonder for how long....

My wife still attends a women's Bible study that has as its members many women that we knew from the community church.  She comes home every Tuesday aglow from the depth of the study and the richness of the fellowship.  Many of the members of this study group also left the community church when we did and landed at a small church planted by South African missionaries.  We could head over there next week, but how long would it be before traditions and legalism settle in there?  It does seem to be the trend, doesn't it?

Great question, socrmom, thanks for asking.  Keep the faith!

I wish I could get the word out about this board to others. I know there are people with the same concerns and curiousities that we have. I am sure that some out there feel they are the only ones who struggle, or who think differently than the leadership in their congregations...etc.

-Chris

When you use the word "traditional," do you mean legalistic, dogmatic, and unyielding to anyone'e opinion but your own?

One might stay because they don't know any better. Maybe they grew up in that church and know no other. They have family there and would never even think of breaking tradition with them and causing a rift. They stay because they think that the cofC is the only true church, and they don't study their bibles enough to find out any different regarding the doctrine or traditions they are being taught.

Well, that may be all well and good, considering their reasons. But when you DO take the initiative and start studying the Word on your own and learning some scriptures you've never heard preached, and you ask about them, and they keep putting you off and not answering your questions, then some-
thing is rotten in Denmark, so to speak. That is when you have to make up your own mind as to whether you want to stay in a congregation that does not preach the whole truth of the gospel, or strike out and find one that does - even though you learn that your family is not of the same opinion as you.

If one's heart is pure before God, whether he stays or goes, I feel like the Holy Spirit will continue to guide either in the Way, and hopefully instill in either a hunger for the truth, and a heart's desire to grow in grace and knowledge.

Yes, Susie, you faced spiritual extinction and your loss of joy would not benefit anyone. How heart-rending is that terrible dread of going into a spiritually hostile and barren environment. You cannot grow roses in the snow, and you can only grow cacti in a desert.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (susieface @ April 20 2002,01:14)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Thank you Bill and Booty for your comments.  Booty, we do visit, some, but I have to say it is depressing.  I have to admit we can not stand to miss our own worship services.  It is also hard because some are still somewhat upset with our leaving. We are almost embarassed to show our happiness when we go back. It is hard to go back right now is all I can say. We and our kids have grown beyond our wildest dreams. It is like the happiest place on earth, because it is so grace and serving centered.

It is  so hard to leave a congregation though. It hurts you and the people you leave.
Susie[/quote]
Soccer Mom, Shouldn't that be Football Mum?

Susie,

I know exactly what you say. My wifes old congregation is like that. They are on the other side of the country, but when we go back it is almost embarrassing to be happy. But then how can you not be happy when you have the Lord's love? And yes it does hurt, it truly, deeply hurts. But then think of how our Lord hurts.

Funny thing, we keep hearing that the leadership there has disfellowshipped us, but they never get around to informing us so we keep visiting whenever we are in town. Now I have never been invited to preach there....Hmm... Now why might that be?  Probably my horrible accent, to be sure!

Praise the Lord for the challenges he trusts us with each day, pray that we can grow to face even greater challenges!!

Good points, Jeff; your ending wrapped it up well, too.  If we wait to live out our Christianity, until we find a congregation where we click in like Lego blocks, we'll just be treading water until we die.  Then we'll undoubtedly look like unprofitable servants to our Lord.  Sometimes one is practically driven to move "membership"; more often, though, I've been able to function, to serve, and maybe let in a little light, where I was planted.

N., S., S., B., A.: Thank you all for a good 'thread'.  Y'all liven up my day. :)  :D