Christian Forums

David, trust this will not be seen as a Bill Clinton approach, for it is not intended, but what do you think the preacher means by right and wrong??? Does he see some absolute line existing that we fall on one side or the other? Now, I recognize that certain things are always going to be wrong, even a little bit of it would be wrong, e.g. stealing or adultery, even stealing one item is wrong, or having one affair is wrong.

But, is not all our obedience flawed, even when we are doing the right thing? E. g., I worship but my attention is not 100% on the song or the sermon because I have a headache or a distraction occurs, like some little kid in front of me bops his
Dad with a matchbox car. Does this invalidate the whole worship experience. I do not think so, for I must immediately refocus and establish a worshipful attitude. I may do this many times, so even though my intentions are good and my activities are right, I am still falling short of perfection. Perhaps this is what Jesus means in Luke 17, where after we have done all we are to confess that we are unprofitable servants.

I knew this guy once who had been baptized eight times, because he reasoned this way: "I think I was 99% zeroed in on Jesus, but I think there was a stray thought or two that went through my mind when I was about to be immersed. Should I not do it over until I can get completely committed to the Lord???"

Is God able to accept an imperfect conversion? Is there any such thing as a perfect conversion? Is it not just a cry for help? Does the Lord say we are saved by faith in our conversion or by conversion into Him?

So, do we ever do church right? The late Dr. Baxter used to say in his class that at one time he had a hard time singing "All to Jesus I surrender" because he was conscious that he often did not surrender all to Jesus. So, he said he now sang the song as a goal, as a set of possibilities that he was trying to be on track toward. I like that idea. Maybe much of our Christian activity is being on the right trail, but not having arrived yet. That seems to be Paul's point in Phil 3: "Not that I have already arrived, but I press on...."

The mature, he says, think like this!
:idea:

Makes sense to me. Mosiac covenant was about doing everything right to be right. Christ's covenant is about being right (ie. in him) and doing flowing from that.

:cool:
Let me add my secret thoughts here. Maybe it's not a mixture thing, say 75% right and 25% wrong. A little leaven, we are reminded, affects a whole ton of dough. Perhaps it is more in the intent. I can be on a road, traveling in the right direction, but sometimes I stumble, and occasionally I fall. But I don't want to stay down or turn around and go the other way. I allow myself to be picked up, dusted off, and motivated to move forward. So, if I am singing from the heart I may not get all the notes right, but God who is the heart-knower, (Acts 15), hears the notes sang in the right spirit. Maybe the rest of it is just noise, acapella noise to be sure, but still just noise.

The Pharisees were extremely scrupulous about mint, anise, dill and all that herbal stuff. Why did their precision theology get them in hot water with Jesus? Has to be intent and heart.

So, is grace not something we respond to, but it is something God provides even as we are responding???

 

kanham:

i don't know as yet.  maybe we'll converse again soon.  it isn't a big problem.  i think if one side can be insisted upon, one should have an idea of where the other boundary is.

dj

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]so how wrong can you be and still be right?[/quote]
Interesting question. If someone normally asks this, I would first try to find out what led them to ask it. I'll assume that we are just entertaining our curiosity.

How wrong can I (Charlie) be and still be right? Since I have faith in Jesus' sacrifice to cover my wrongs, and have entered into a relationship with God in good conscience, and sincerely try to honor God, but sometimes (daily) do things that are less than holy, and often profane, I would say I could be a lot worse and still be covered by the blood of Jesus. But to intentionally turn from my current spiritual state and embrace the darkness--that is, to choose to be a lot worse--that is faithlessness, and would, I believe, be damning to my soul. But if my faith is shaken by something, either an event in my life, or neglect on my part, God still holds me, even if I become worse than I ever was. God doesn't condemn those who slip, only those who turn away. It's when I accept sin in my life as acceptible to God that I begin to turn away.

How wrong can someone else (someone Charlie is wondering about) be and still be right? I can't absolutely tell the difference between someone who slips and someone who turns from God. From where I stand, all I see is someone sinning. Comments they make may reveal their heart. Apparent changes in their attitude may be revealing, too. I can't talk with that person, though, and tell them that the sin in their life is acceptible to God. I must encourage them to stop doing evil and start doing good.

I guess the answer to your question to me is this: If you are not in Christ, then you must not be wrong at all. You must be perfect throughout your life; as perfect as God himself. If you are in Christ, then you are made right, and how wrong you were (are) doesn't make any difference at all. Because of that, you should start behaving with your heart and mind as purely as you have been made in your soul.

friends:

our current preacher enjoys the phrase 'you can do everything right and still be wrong'.  we rib each other quite a bit, but i seriously can never get him to state how much wrong we can do and still be right.  the questions are in relation to church matters as far as i know.
your ideas on the topic please.

dj

bob:

i believe it does not concern personal problems, but is limited to church practice/veiws (denomiational varieties).

dj

so how wrong can you be and still be right?

dj

DJ,

Is it anything like "sincere but sincerely wrong

I used to hear sermons that would illustrate something like this with "You can get up in the middle of the night, have a headache and stumble to the medicine cabinet, and sincerely believe you are taking an aspirin when you are really taking a cyanide pill, and then you'll be sincerely dead." (With apologies to the munchkin doctor who pronounced the wicked witch sincerely and really dead in the Wizard of Oz).

I suppose this is entirely true, but what kind of suicidal person would put cyanide in the medicine cabinet???

Some composers observe all the rules (Salieri?) and still compose boring music. Some break the rules (Stravinsky?) and still produce some great stuff. Probably there are no real asolutes in music, if so John Cage would have to be stoned, or maybe he already is???

nerdneh:

:p perhaps cage has been for quite a while :cool:

deep down, i think the peacher believes membership in most any church is ok, but won't reveal how he sets his limits.

dj