Christian Forums

seekr,

You sure ask some tough questions.  But sometimes faith just isn't that easy is it.

Faith-unquestioning belief, complete trust or reliance, loyalty in a higher power.  Faithful-true believers, loyal followers.

Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "Faith is not simply the assent of the intellect to revealed truth; it is the practical submission of the entire man to the guidance and control of such truth."  The devils believe and tremble."

Notice there are two things that make up faith.  1)The intellect (the part of the brain that says I believe) 2)Submission to the will of God. (the physical part of us)  John 3.18-21, Rom.2.6-7, Rom.4.4-5, Heb.chp. 11.

So maybe equation should look something like this.

belief in God
      +
trust, reliance (our works come out of trust, Would there be any trust if I refuse to do what God has asked?  Could Abraham had offered Isaac, his only son, with out trust in God? Heb.11.17-19.)
       =
Faith

If you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, Your faith is in action.  Did you confess and repent? If so your faith is in action.  Were you baptised?  Your faith is in action.  When ever we obey, it is an expression of our faith.

Looking forward to your reply,
Bubba :)

janine,

Right on, you said it "The two concepts of faith, intellect-action, are interwoven together".  Take one away and you have no faith.  Thats why the devils have no faith, just belief (intellect).

I hope that I didn't imply that you must have a perfect faith, even Abrahams faith was not perfect, but he is the example of what our faith should be like. (and I don't know anybody that has a faith like Abraham did.)

Like the good father that he is, God in his lovingkindness, tests our faith with trials.  He puts us in the fire to refine us, and when we pass the test by puting our trust in Him, the trial has suddenly become a blessing.  Our faith is stronger and we are more like our Saviour.

Bubba :)

I absolutely believe "faith without works is dead". But then what are the "works"? First, our work to become believers- "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." We think, too often, being a Christian means, how close we adhere to any lists and how much we do not sin compared to how much we used to--then religiosity reigns. And yes, I know there is an element to overcoming, but the "works' for believers is love, and my righteousness(all those good things I do) is as filthy rags before Him. And my overcoming has nothing to do with my goodness, because I do not have that in me, I can only allow the Spirit to work within me...thus I am free. Obedience is obedience to the law of love--do this and live. All the examples are there, as when James gives the example--"Suppose a brother is without...etc". (how come we ignore that it is what he is saying and think it means our doings?)I'm going to be repetitive here, again. 1John3:14-17--"14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death."...Then the example in 17. Then in Luke 11:41"But give what is inside the dish to the poor and EVERYTHING will be clean for you."  "Carry each others burdens and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." Then do the comparison of sheep vs, goats in Matt. 25.."Whatever you did not do for the least of these you did not do for me." Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved Him and responded "feed my sheep". Love in action the ONLY rule for believers (Romans 13:9-10).

So how are we working out our salvation? With fear and trembling? Do we pull out our lists trying to figure out who really does belong to the kingdom? Love really does cover a multitude of sin. Faithfulness?

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Notice there are two things that make up faith.  1)The intellect (the part of the brain that says I believe) 2)Submission to the will of God. (the physical part of us)  John 3.18-21, Rom.2.6-7, Rom.4.4-5, Heb.chp. 11.
[/quote]

I like this definition.  The word submission says a lot, I think.  It pretty well sums up Abraham's life, doesn't it?
And I've come to believe it can be a difficult concept.

The man who used to preach where I go to church now would frequently ask classes he taught whether people were willing to simply and honestly pray to God that they would sumbit themselves to Him and let him do whatever they wanted with their lives.  This seems like a simple enough prayer, but when you really start to consider it, when you honestly start to ask what God might ask you to give up and what He might have in mind for your life, this prayer becomes difficult.  Scary even.  I've talked to people about this, and had many reply that yes, they were afraid to pray this, because they realized they had things in their life they weren't quite willing to let go of.  I admit that at times I have felt much the same way.

But I wonder if this concept--submission--doesn't get to the heart of what faith is.  I wonder how many times God has said to me "Oh ye of little faith".

I love looking up words in the dictionary and sometimes God's truth hits me square in the face by the definitions which have seemingly changed their meaning by what we think.

Faith: allegiance to duty or a person: LOYALTY--fidelty to one's promises--sincerity of intentions. Faithful: full of faith--firm in adherences to promises or in observance of duty: concientous--true to the facts.

One of the passages I've read in scripture that Jesus asked, Luke 18:8--"However when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" Why did he ask this? He had been talking with His disciples about the persistent widow, a parable. But it got me thinking about faithfulness or being faithful.

So, how do any of us "show" our faithfulness? I guess we could go to the parable of talents because the Master said "Well done, good and faithful servant." What was it he did to receive such praise? What made him a faithful servant? And why was the other servant called wicked and lazy? If faithful means "full of faith" does that make a little more sense when you read it? Well done, good and (full of faith) servant. Is it because the 2 servants believed, being full of faith and the other wicked servant didn't? Do maybe we make it too much about their actions, that which showed their faith, such as Abraham's did, than the faith which created the actions? the wicked servant thought God was a hard man, thus did not believe He would receive anything from Him. So how is it we are faithful? What in essence would God call "good and faithful" in our lives?

seekr

The goal is to have a faith like Abraham's, rather than a faith like the devils'.  The devils believe, with no shred of doubt, in God, having seen Him in a way I haven't; but, all that their absolute, undiluted, concrete faith does for them is to make them sure of their damnation.

Sure, the story about the servants & their use of the talents (which was money, btw, as in "a talent of silver"...) is an illustration of the importance of the attitude we hold toward God as we believe in Him... but, how does one put too much emphasis on the servants' actions?  They were commended and rewarded, or condemned, based not upon their thoughts but on their actions.

The attitudes/thoughts/intellectual faith they had in their master determined the actions they took; the actions they took determined their fate.

The two concepts, {faith-as-in-belief} and {faith-as-in-action}, are bound and linked and interwoven together so thoroughly, one can't cut them apart without destroying them both.

Actually, the master's reply to the one-talent servant is a source of great comfort to me.  The desperate father in Mark 9:24 is a great source of inspiration to me.  Hebrews chapters 3 & 4 end up equating belief & obedience, and disbelief & disobedience, which means a lot to me.

People who've been hurt by legalism probably wouldn't draw the comfort I do from passages like those, since legalism is perceived as telling you to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

Ha!  Without the Lord, I was so bankrupt I hadn't any boots, much less bootstraps...

Folks oughta draw great comfort from such Scriptures, though.  What those verses do for me is this:
   
    None of the power or permanence or perfection of my faith depends on my own personal strength or smarts or anything else.

All my obedient faith has done is to get me to hold still so that He can heal me... and, as in Mark 9:24, if I can find the strength to bring my darkened, twisted self to the Healer, He won't wait for me to perfect my own belief before He heals me.  Doubts, imperfect intellectual faith, imperfect action-faith, all such impediments, are swept away by the One.

If all I can do is scrape together a weak, snivelly little faith today, because I've let the world jump me flat, that's OK.  That's enough, because I know the One who is the Author, the Perfector, the Powerhouse of Christian faith.  None of my triumph was ever dependent on ME. :)

Do we act because of our faith, or do we have faith because of something we do ?

Faith, hope, and love are gifts of God (1 Cor. 13)

Rom 8:9-11
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
NIV

Rom 8:12-17
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.


15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs-heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
NIV

That is a scary idea, Marc, praying in wide-open submission like that.  I've brought in up, speaking on prayer at a women's meeting, and in class discussions.

Are we ready?  Are we even willing?

Do we really want patience?  According to what I see in James, the way God will grant me my request for more patience is to see that I'm given opportunities to grow some patience through adversity, trials, etc.

Do we really want to be conformed to the image of the Son?  Parts of me that stick out of the "Jesus mold" will be pressed in, sanded down, cut off!  Am I willing?

Do we really want to serve the Lord and His church?  Are we willing to strive to be a little more obedient and a little less stubborn, as His smelly sheep, so that we can encourage the other sheep, and stop giving the Shepherd so much grief?

Can we reach for righteousness, not because it's any good to do so without the grace of God, but because God deserves our every attempt to be holy... or, actually, to shut up, get out of His way, and let Him be holy in us?

Will we -- do we decide to have the will to --- wipe our own reflection off the mirror, along with the smudgy fingerprints and bath steam, and give Him ourself as a real 'tabula rasa', to enscribe as He will?

You know how young lovers carve names in trees, leaving a living sign of their love?  My God took a nasty iron spike and carved my name in His hand.  I remain His until His hand is no more.

It is only "scary" in the flesh. This was my prayer and why for a few years now my life has been turned upside down. BUT, there is, as Charles Sheldon said, a product of suffering, that produces a practical joy. Paul discovered this and many others who have chosen to give all, no matter the cost, to be like Him. In the flesh I still wrestle with God, but still I say "yes". I'm glad I don't have to figure it all out or fear giving up as I trust Him to carry me. And Paul also said, he had conflicts without and fears within. I love that, as it shows the human condition as we walk His path. It does not mean though, that all of us will have the same measure of suffering--it is always God's call. A bit of "In His Steps"."Would the church members, would the Christians, not only in the churches of Chicago, but throughout the country, refuse to walk in His steps if, in order to do so, they must actually take up a cross and follow Him? This was the one question that continually demanded answer."

seekr