Lines of Fellowship

Thu Jan 09, 2003 - 18:45:56

Charlie,

Can I have the link you mentioned?

What your church needs to do is all out declare war on these people. Totally destroy them and take no prisoners. Everytime you get a chance to criticize one of their churches, point out an inconsistency in their practice/doctrine-----DO IT. Refer to them (from the pulpit) at your church as willfully decieving false teachers and liars. Take out ads in the local paper ever week or two attacking them and cutting down any shortcoming of theirs.

Tell the members of your church that if any of their relatives go to an NI church they have to sever relations with them or else face discipline.

Out of all the 26 denominations of Church of Christ, the NI one is the type I hate the most. Any church that refuses to take money out of its contribution to feed an unbaptized child is warped, and its individual members mentally ill. They should be put in a psychiatric institution where they cannot spread their filth.

charlie · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 09:29:05

B.H.,
The website is on my original post.

Oh, and I don't believe that open war would have been the decision of James and the apostles and elders.

The worst thing we could do is adopt the very attitudes that we reject in them. We should overcome evil with good.

To the rest,

As to blowing them off, I'm not sure that's responsible either. Paul turned his back on his fellow Jews when they refused to hear the gospel, but we're talking about our brothers and sisters in Christ. If we can't even sit at the table with a large portion of those that we share so many common beliefs, how in the world are we ever going to be united with Christians in non-RM groups?

Kevin,
Shoot, you were disfellowshipped the minuted you joined a church with musical instruments. You might as well begin a life of crime.

Janine,
So what can we do to help the situation? (disunity, not 9-11 relief)

Bon Voyage · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 12:45:15

Over on another thread I came across a profound statement from a particular Irishman living in South America.

Here it is:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]When someone identifies themselves to me as a Christian, I offer them the hand of fellowship. It is His name they have assumed, not mine and I trust in Him to sort it out.

And sort it out He does, if they are not of Him, you quickly learn and then can withdraw the hand as the Spirit guides you.[/quote]

Rocketman · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 14:36:15

Hey Kappa, I wanted to address your comments since this your comments were addressed to the "rest of us" who posted.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]To the rest of you, let me say this:

Threads like this really bug me, for several reasons:

--They give you a chance to pat yourselves on the back by sharing your favorite horror stories about the "antis" (I hate that word, but that's another discussion) and thanking God that you are not as other men are. [/quote]

I agree with your comments about the term "anti" and in fact believe it is simply not godly behavior to use that term. I didnt know what that term was until I left the non-institutional church. All I knew was "NI" and "I" or as most referred to "the liberal church".

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
--They thrive off of gross generalizations. For years after the split between the Disciples and the CofC, Disciples historians took a dismissive attitude toward the cofC. That's what allowed them to refer to Christians in churches of Christ as divisive cranks and fanatics. Today, that same attitude perpetuates the institutional division. Members of NI congregations are warned about "liberals" and "mainstream" (another term I dislike) congregations get spoonfed a line about those awful "antis." [/quote]

Agreed. When I left the NI congregation in my town there are a number who believe I have left the faith so to speak. Its sad really.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]--They employ a kind of rhetoric that assumes that everyone in an NI congregation is a crank and, maybe, just a bit insane. Isn't it nice that "we" have a place where we can lock up all the loonies and keep them away from us? Maybe that what what was behind Mr. Goodpasture's call for a quarantine of the "antis" on the pages of the Gospel Advocate in 1954. [/quote]

Both employ the rhetoric, I've heard numerous sermons over the years about how the liberal churches need to return to the truth or how they dont care about God's word because they dont see everything just like we do. Again sad. There is considerably more diversity in the NI realm than most realize, its just the more zealous get the most attention.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]--They evince a lack of respect for one another's spiritual journeys.[/quote]

No doubt.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]--They assume that the responsibility for the initial division (and its subsequent perpetuation) lies solely with one party in the division. Let me be blunt: It takes two to divide. Don't be so myopic as to pretend that NIs are solely responsible for this division and that "mainstream" churches, on the other hand, had only the purest and most selfless motives throughout.[/quote]

I never knew the history of the division until reading Ed Harrell's book on the History of the Cofcs in the 20th Century. A very fascinating yet sad account of the divisions that occured. Growing up NI, I never recall hearing anyone talk about these differences. I just knew there were some cofcs that were dangerous because they were liberal. I didnt know they thought we were nuts. I guess I was isolated.

After attending an "institutional" church now for 10+ years I still on occasion do hear spiteful comments about the "antis" but I try to address these as it is part of my heritage. Though I am in an unusual situation in that many from my heritage view me as not with them anymore. So it does work both ways and I dont think either side can claim purity on the issues that "bug" you so to speak.

janine · Tue Jan 14, 2003 - 07:55:48

Oh, Lord...

How many kids who only came to eat are Christians now, because of the love they were shown by these people with cookies and hot dogs?

charlie · Thu Jan 09, 2003 - 12:23:46

The website of a NI congregation (non-institutional) has a link going to "area congregations". As you might guess, only other NI churches of Christ are listed, even though there are dozens more congregations in the area. There's even a link to email the administrator to have your congregation listed.

I emailed them telling them of our congregation. I got one back stating that we weren't listed because of our family life center' basketball court and how the early church didn't pay for such things out of the general treasury, which was only used for evangelism and benevolence. I explained that the flooring and goals were paid for out of someone's pocket and that many souls have been saved and helped in that "gym", but the response to that was that not all growth is good.

Basically, I've concluded that we'll never make their list until we cow to their way of doing things. Explaining and meeting their technical requirements isn't even enough.

My question is this: how do you deal with stubbornness in withdrawal of fellowship when the world is depending on the whole church to work together to reach them? How can we get through to the stubborn? What would James and the apostles (a la Acts 15) have done? What compromise would they have reached?

Your thoughts?

Rocketman · Thu Jan 09, 2003 - 15:29:33

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Basically, I've concluded that we'll never make their list until we cow to their way of doing things. Explaining and meeting their technical requirements isn't even enough.
[/quote]

As a person who grew up in an NI congregation I can say that you are correct in your assumption. I was home for the holidays and attended the NI congregation I "grew up" in and that my folks and sister and her family still attend. Interestingly enough the preacher there talked about "Fellowship" and how he was concerned that he was seeing more things that were considered "Test of Fellowship" based on peoples pet doctrines. He talked about those who take the opinion that if you dont have the same belief as me on this or that then we cant fellowship with you. He actually concluded at the end of his sermon that this demand for uniformity was denominationalism.

Its a sermon that would have riled many up in the "mainstream" church I attend now, yet I thought it ironic that they clearly wouldnt "fellowship" a "liberal" church with a family life center or gym, yet he didnt like this same test being applied to him and others for things they think ok. There is all kinds of irony here I suppose. I will say there is actually probably more diversity within NI congregations than many realize from the hateful far far right to the more open but basically stay out of the argument and be almost an isolation church like my folks attend.

Just a few thoughts from a unique perspective,
RM

spurly · Thu Jan 09, 2003 - 19:01:44

I guess we would really be disfellowshipped. We cooperate with the Baptist church next door, and we also are working with the Jesus house, which is supported by Christians of all stripes.

Kevin

janine · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 08:29:12

I looked at that site & the link they suggested for Bible study tools/resources.

http://www.studylight.org is much better, as far as Bible research, aids and translations available.

When the 9-11-01 tragedy occured, a guy in our congregation (our church at that time) made some phone calls to a couple of NI (non-institutional AND non-instrumental, of course) congregations in New York, looking within tight boundaries for a congregation we as a church could send a donation to, to help with whatever work they were doing up there for the emergency, or to help them as a church if they were personally affected.

He couldn't find one.

That is, of the mere one or two he found, they told him they were not doing any work as a church, no relief, no donations to help connected families, no Bible-based counseling, nothing.

Of course, he didn't bother to contact the HUNDREDS of other churches of Christ who were entering into benevolent projects related to 9/11. No way we could in good conscience send collection plate money, the Lord's money, into the hands of any church less than perfect doctrinally, ooooh no... much less send a donation, as a church, to a (gasp) secular (eeek!) organization.

Arkstfan · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 09:31:44

Boy we need more sermons like that Rocketman.

Just changing from the mindset of trying to see our differences to seeing our similarity would be a nice start.

charlie · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 09:37:54

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]They should be put in a psychiatric institution where they cannot spread their filth. [/quote]
B.H.,
Ironically, most area NI congregations are so small and ineffectual at outreach, that their members are pretty much quarantined. They only outsiders they really affect are other church members who care for their souls (like me).

Still, I can think of quite a few people that I love dearly, but who I am relieved to know that they are holed up in teeny-tiny congregations where their beliefs and attitudes will be safely bottled.

marc · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 12:38:19

I immediately find myself thinking of the way other churches--ones we have treated as if they were not really Christians and have tried to convert to the Church of Christ--have treated us over the years. The situation seems similar. I think of the preacher/civic club organization who refused to call on anyone other than the other CofC member to open their meeting with a prayer. I think of all of the doors I've knocked trying to convince Baptists of our way of thinking.

How have they treated us? A few have written us off, preached against us, scoffed at us, condemned us on their radio shows, listed us among the cults. Others though--the majority in my area--have simply never stopped treating us as Christians, even though we haven't always responded in kind. They talk about God with us in their everyday conversations, they care about us when we're sick, they even sometimes support our efforts to evangelize the unchurched. Overall they have treated us better than we deserved. And I think this has helped change many of us (as a matter of fact, I recently heard a no-fellowship-with-others person at church say he thought the problem a couple of other members openness was caused by spending too much time in social situations with people from other churches).

Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 18:29:37

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (charlie @ Jan. 10 2003,09:37)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]They should be put in a psychiatric institution where they cannot spread their filth. [/quote]
B.H.,
Ironically, most area NI congregations are so small and ineffectual at outreach, that their members are pretty much quarantined. They only outsiders they really affect are other church members who care for their souls (like me).

Still, I can think of quite a few people that I love dearly, but who I am relieved to know that they are holed up in teeny-tiny congregations where their beliefs and attitudes will be safely bottled.[/quote]
:clap: :thumbup:

janine · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 14:03:07

I was raised a Catholic, christened and confirmed, by an Easter-Christmas-wedding-and-funeral (if then) Catholic father and a lapsed Baptist mother.

I found the Lord through a plea to him for a Damascus-road-style enlightenment (although I didn't know to call it that at the time) in my mid-teens. I was getting no help in my search for the Lord from my priest. (He was later exposed for keeping & sharing with other priests a lot of kiddie porn...)

He gave to me my RM-based, high-school-debate-over-lunch friend... then beloved... then husband, before I even got my high school diploma in 1981.

I made my commitment to the Lord in '83 and was quietly, gently knocked over for the sweetest possible trip to Damascus perhaps 8 years later.

All that to say this: I haven't a long, rich background in the RM. All I can go by is what I, personally, know.

I spent a couple of years, until perhaps a year ago, in an "anti" church. They loved us enough to accept us when we told them we wanted to worship with them. Even though they knew darned well what we were (mainstream?) by the time we'd visited & studied with them for months on end. There were and are some loving people there.

There are also a couple of rampant nut-jobs there.

The limits and failures and retardation (of both spiritual and physical growth) of that congregation, IMO, are not due to the "anti" persuasion of 3/4 of the members still there (which are sadly few now... membership under 20 if you count the babies, only perhaps 4 people with any real non-institutional views, and only maybe 3 people with any depth of understanding of the Scriptures.)

Destructive problems there are due to dynamics from family problems, past unpunished sexual abuses, all sorts of stuff.

The "anti" angle is like a religious/philosphical conviction, I guess, just like some of the stuff I will and won't do, re: my functioning as a Christian, due to conscience.

So, I'm sure there are thriving congregations filled with functional, sincere non-institutional brethren. I just haven't been exposed to them yet, is all.

Heck, I've only been personally, long-term exposed to one "institutional" congregation that had, IMO, all four wheels on the ground.

Thanks for your input, kappa. Keep it coming.

Arkstfan · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 15:55:51

I've said this often but from a hermenutic stand point the grace-centered movement is much closer to the NI than to the so-called mainstream.

We differ basically on how to react to silence but we both avoid the twisted inferences that seem to litter mainstream thought to justify any stand.

We have little common ground on the superficial matters but if we can get past using them as fellowship tests everything will be fine.

Arkstfan · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 23:59:55

Never after having seen my congregation "written up" and part of the "proof" of our error was that we started a new congregation and aren't using "Church of Christ" in our proper name therefore we went out, little suprises me.

Therefore 1 John 2:19 was used to condemn us

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

For those who aren't familar with the verse it is a warning from John about identifying the antichrist. Except if you read 1 John and 2 John you know that the antichrist denies Jesus is the Christ and from God. We managed to get called the antchrists without following the beliefs that scripture tells us mark the antichrists.

But hey these are the folks who think its wrong to serve cookies at vacation Bible school because the kids will only come to eat.

Nevertheless · Tue Jan 14, 2003 - 23:10:04

And what about all those "extravagant" youth trips? You know the ones I mean -- picnics, skating, amusement parks, etc. So many people complain about such things.

I heard a speaker once who thanked God for those extravagances. She came from an abusive home - sexual abuse by both her brothers and father started at about age 5, I think - and her parents refused to let her go "to church". But she was allowed to go with a friend's youth group on trips and outings. This was her only exposure to Jesus, and the route to her salvation. Hearing her tell her story touched me deeply.

Never

janine · Wed Jan 15, 2003 - 13:49:02

Remember an a cappella, sort of rock-and-blues-style singing group from the late 80's, called Soul? They were really starting to get off the ground, had put out a nice album. I saw them when I lived in Sioux City.

The lead singer, Danny (I wish I could recall his last name), told how he was a disadvantaged kid, who only came to know the Lord through a bus ministry. He was hungry (for more than just the hamburgers, I'm sure), and the church of Christ bus ministry would pick him up and teach him and love him and correct him and feed him... that's the reason he went, hunger.

If I remember correctly, he wrote the song "Roll the Stone Away". Remember that, from an old Acappella album?

Hard to believe the artificial lines drawn between segments of the brotherhood. Some people wouldn't support their music because he had long hair.

The last thing I ever heard from him was when he sent a letter out to all the people on Soul's mailing list, repenting of the rebellion he had been expressing with his long hair. He said something about some elders bringing him to that repentance...

Cutting his hair apparently rid him of his drive to compose & sing, 'cause Soul immediately went down the tubes.

Barb1957 · Thu Jan 09, 2003 - 14:27:17

Short answer/thought is that I think you should just say, "Oh well" and not worry about it. Life's too short.

Longer answer/thoughts: Regarding their argument that the early church didn't pay for things like basketball courts out of the general treasury, but only used it for evangelism and benevolence. Well, what about church buildings? The early church didn't pay to build those either. As you pointed out to them (in addition to stating that the general treasury wasn't used to build the "gym" anyhow), the facility has been used for evangelism. Why do they have authority to say that a church building can be used for evangelism, but a basketball court can't be used for the same?

What would be nice is if they could be thankful for what your congregation is doing to show Christ to people and bring them to Him, and if others could be thankful for what they are doing in the same regard, without either thinking the others' way is the only or best way.

My 2 cents! :)

Thu Jan 09, 2003 - 20:17:51

I dont think BH has the right idea though I do understand how he can have such a negative view of the NIers as some have caused much pain in their treatment of people. I dont think declaring war is the right thing as no one would win that battle. The best thing we can do is to try to someway be involved in their lives and let them see that there is another way and that love drives all we do. I recently went on the Walk to Emmaus which is a very eccumenical event and there was a person from our local NI congregation on the walk with me and he was greatly moved by it. In fact he said, "we've got go get our people (the two cofcs in town) to this".

janine · Fri Jan 10, 2003 - 09:46:42

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So what can we do to help the situation (disunity, not 9-11 relief)?[/quote]

Humph. I wish I knew, Charlie. Besides bathe them in prayer, I mean, that's a given.

Wait until they're sick with a scary illness, or wait until their building burns down, something catastrophic like that, then go & serve them as we would the Lord? Maybe that'll get through to them?

Such a "look for chances to serve them" approach requires that we keep interacting with them, keep trying to love them, as much as they allow.

kappa · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 12:42:11

Hi all,

First off, let me "out" myself and let you know that I am a member of an NI congregation.

Charlie, I sympathize with the concerns in your original post. It is shameful that people who should see each other as brothers and sisters cannot recognize one another as such and encourage each other in their work.

To the rest of you, let me say this:

Threads like this really bug me, for several reasons:

--They give you a chance to pat yourselves on the back by sharing your favorite horror stories about the "antis" (I hate that word, but that's another discussion) and thanking God that you are not as other men are. :cry:

--They thrive off of gross generalizations. For years after the split between the Disciples and the CofC, Disciples historians took a dismissive attitude toward the cofC. That's what allowed them to refer to Christians in churches of Christ as divisive cranks and fanatics. Today, that same attitude perpetuates the institutional division. Members of NI congregations are warned about "liberals" and "mainstream" (another term I dislike) congregations get spoonfed a line about those awful "antis."

--They employ a kind of rhetoric that assumes that everyone in an NI congregation is a crank and, maybe, just a bit insane. Isn't it nice that "we" have a place where we can lock up all the loonies and keep them away from us? Maybe that what what was behind Mr. Goodpasture's call for a quarantine of the "antis" on the pages of the Gospel Advocate in 1954.

--They evince a lack of respect for one another's spiritual journeys.

--They assume that the responsibility for the initial division (and its subsequent perpetuation) lies solely with one party in the division. Let me be blunt: It takes two to divide. Don't be so myopic as to pretend that NIs are solely responsible for this division and that "mainstream" churches, on the other hand, had only the purest and most selfless motives throughout.

****

More than likely, that congregation's reply to you (Charlie) isn't a simple snub of you as a Christian. It represents a lot more. Behind it are 50 years of hurt, 50 years of isolation (not necessarily self-imposed) and "quarantine." When you (and a whole lot more people on both sides of this split) begin to fathom those issues, then perhaps we can at least begin talking again.

XP,

Kappa.

Nevertheless · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 18:13:37

I'm a bit surprised that no one has commented on this statement from the first post:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I explained that the flooring and goals were paid for out of someone's pocket and that many souls have been saved and helped in that "gym", but the response to that was that not all growth is good.
[/quote]

Reading that statement was like a punch in the gut. To say that "not all growth is good" about a rise in church membership or attendance is one thing, but how dare ANY Christian say that about souls being saved??

This is no gross generalization! Such a statement reveals a heart attitude that should be repugnant to any Christian, from the most staunch NI to the pew-jumping Pentecostal!

Apparently they have lost sight of what Paul had to say about evangelism in Philippians 1:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
[/quote]

Never

Bon Voyage · Mon Jan 13, 2003 - 18:23:07

Amen, Never

Arkstfan · Wed Jan 15, 2003 - 09:06:59

Yeah we wouldn't want the kids to spend their leisure time with other Christians unless they can pay for it themself, like at a nice private school.

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