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kizzie,

Does this apply to your situation?  

Matthew 18: 15ff

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you.  If he listens to you, yu have won your brother over.  But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.  If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector"  

This is Jesus' method of resolving problems.

Sincerely,
MaSouth

Well then Kizzie,

Sounds like you need to go to Step 2:  Take one or two others along so that every matter may be established by one or two witnesses.

It does not matter that the man is your preacher.  I know if we follow God's steps, it will work out the way it's supposta!

MaSouth

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hi.  I was just wondering if I could get some clarification on a problem I have.  A problem came up between myself and another Christian, so I made arrangements to meet with them and discuss the situation.  When I arrived at the appointed time the children arrived home early from school.  The wife asked her husband (whom I came to speak to) to ask the children to go upstairs while we talked.  The husband made no reply and the woman, after waiting five or ten minutes made the request again.  Again, it was ignored.  Finally, embarrassed, I left.  During a later discussion with the wife, I learned that the husband apparently decided that there was nothing to discuss and has to date made no attempt to reschedule the appointment.  Perhaps he feels there is nothing to discuss, but I feel there is.  It seems to me that a man who has taken the role of preaching should be open to hearing from the congregation, and trying to made sure that problems are discussed and rectified, so that resentment doesn't crop up.  We have no elders here and it is a small congregation.  Thanks in advance.[/quote]
Kizzie,

Allow me to share with you my personal thought process when I am offended.

1.Have I looked carefully at Booty?
While Matthew 18:15 might apply here, but then so might Matthew 7:1-3.

2.Could I have misunderstood his intentions?
Matthew 26:7-10

3.Could I be placing to much importance on a trivial matter
Matthew 23:24

4. What is the Lord telling me to do?
Matthew 5:43-45

Kizzie,

Forgive me if you feel I am minimizing your problem. That is not my intention. I have just learned from hard experience that there are times when I am to quick to take offense and too slow to understand my brother or sister.

I did receive the impression that you feel his lack of response may be gender based. That would not be Biblical in my opinion and I pray a pulpit minister is not of this mind. Remember though, he is your brother and your concern for his well being should exceed your concern for your own.

If he has arrived at a point where he cannot listen to women in any circumstances, then serious prayer is in order. But your account stated that he ignored his wife's command to send the children upstairs, rather than rebuke her for making the command. So it would appear that this is not the case. She did command him two times. Now for the life of me, I fail to see why his wife could not and would not send the children upstairs her own self, but then I am here and they are there.

Kizzie, one further thought. I understand this man is a pulpit minister. Kizzie, the pulpit can be a dangerous and hostile place. It is rife with temptations. It is a display case, no privacy exists. It is the foci of tremendous pressure. It is a window into the darkest depravities of your fellow man.

I guested in a pulpit once years ago and found there a mirror mounted. Strange little mirror that made me appear very short and small. I asked the pulpit minister later, why?  His reply lingers. "Booty, the pulpit makes me so much larger than life my mirror brings me back to reality."

I share this thought as we all too often expect, no, DEMAND, a perfection from our pulpit that only Christ his own self is prepared to deliver. Paul very humbly made a point in 1 Corinthians 1:12,13. At times we pulpit ministers each echo Paul's lament as he painfully realizes that the Corinthians have begun to worship him, Apollos and Peter rather than Christ.

Kizzie, when I stand in my pulpit I am not perfect. I am a flawed man with defects. I am a sinner. Look not to me for your faith, look to Him who loves me with all my flaws, defects and sins. Look to Him who is, was and will be perfect, Jesus of Nazereth and please forgive me my many flaws as I try so pitifully to answer His call. Why He chose to call me of all people, I will never know. But I do know He did not choose to call me to form the Church of St. Booty.

God bless you lass. I hope I have not confused you beyond all hope. Would you join me in prayer?

(I like to do this on my knees, works sort of like that little mirror.)

Dear precious Lord.

Forgive us Lord our vanities and prides that so often get in the way when we deal with our fellow man. Please bless us with your infinite patience and understanding. You, who suffered all indignities for us, guide us with our tender feelings and fragile shells.    

Lord help us to accept our offenses as challenges to forgive, seventy times seven, Lord. Fortify us with your Holy Spirit so that we may learn to love our enemy as you taught us.

We ask in the name of Jesus of Nazereth with the assurance that what we ask, we will receive.

Amen

Where ya from Kizzie?

With no elders in a small congregation it can be hard.  Especially if the preacher has more or feels he has more biblical instruction than the rest of the congregation.

I think you should follow the advice of others.

I know of people who sound just like your preacher and I hope for the best in your situation.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (kizzie @ July 10 2002,09:59)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty:  Thank you for your thoughful reply to my problem.  I appreciate your suggestions and will take them to heart.  My only concern is that you said his wife "commanded" her husband to send the children from the room.  I agree with you whole-heartedly that she should have done it herself, but I do not think that making a request of my husband concerning the childrens' presence is a command.  One other thing--we are a very small congregation and do not have a preacher as such, rather this is a Christian who gives the lesson on Sunday.  He is employed secularly full-time, and is not a paid preacher.  As far as the gender issue is concerned, he has made it plain that women are to be silent (i.e.- mute) whenever male Christians are present for a study, including mid-week studies. I disagree with this entirely.  When we gather on Sunday to worship and break bread, yes, but during Bible studies, I disagree.  Needless to say, it creates resentment and hard feelings that should not be.  Kizzie[/quote]
Kizzie,

If you and I are in a room with our children sharing the authority of parents over the children and you "request" that I send the children from the room, (Not once but twice), that would appear a command to me. But then you were there and I was not, I responded to the appearance of what you wrote.

Jerry's wisdom is sage. It is sad there are no elders. Susie's advice of taking a male with you is also wise and if you do proceed with the steps of Matthew 18:15 your witnesses should be male. As Ark says, otherwise it will be of little avail.

But then remembering a similar circumstance when the woman involved took not just two males with her, but two male preachers, sadly it still may not arrive at the conclusion that you desire. The paradigm contra women is amazingly strong and durable, PRAYER is the only resource.

The term for your preacher would be Bivocational Preacher, as was the Apostle Paul. I just pulled down from the shelf here in the library an excellent book, The Tentmaking Pastor, The Joy of Bivocational Ministry by Dennis W. Bickers. Bivocational Preachers as Bickers illustrates are quite often blessings to the small congregations that could not afford a preacher in any other way. They are preachers in every sense of the word whether they are paid or not. They are subject to the same temptations, defects, faults and deficits of faith as any other preacher.

The only advantage they may have is possibly increased freedom to follow their convictions as their family is not dependent on a board of leaders being "Pleased". I well remember the day when Rafael with his flock of children still in school responded to the representative of the church in the U.S. that was supporting him totally, "Should my family starve, I still must follow the Lord!". With a house full of children, I consider Rafael a brave man. Just think of a "Paid" preacher risking his family's well being to follow the Lord. I believe if some of the preachers here will comment, you will find times when their salary is a cruel leash. Another example is Cecil Hooks, author of Free in Christ. Cecil waited until he retired to speak out on legalism. (By the way Rafael's issue ironically was the silence of women and Rafael refused to prohibit a woman from returning thanks for her meal because there was a man present who should do it for her. Rafael has been blessed abundantly following the Lord. His congregation is one of the fastest growing in the country, has planted numerous others and those wonderful children of his are well fed.)  
Kizzie, none of us here can hope to furnish a definitive specific answer to you delemna. The best advice of all that we can give is simply this. Take it to the Lord in prayer, sincere earnest prayer. Then open your heart to His response.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (pdwblw @ July 12 2002,08:13)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am a paid preacher who serves a wonderful congregation.  Money has not been a controlling leash here.  They have blessed my family and I.  I hope that I am not a rare case[/quote]
Praise the Lord.

Forgive me, I did not intend to be all inclusive. I believe you will find as many variations in the status of preachers as you find variations in man himself.

I honestly do not know how to describe myself. I receive no salary, I have no secular job; yet my needs are met. Could it be I just work for the Lord as do you?

Hi.  I was just wondering if I could get some clarification on a problem I have.  A problem came up between myself and another Christian, so I made arrangements to meet with them and discuss the situation.  When I arrived at the appointed time the children arrived home early from school.  The wife asked her husband (whom I came to speak to) to ask the children to go upstairs while we talked.  The husband made no reply and the woman, after waiting five or ten minutes made the request again.  Again, it was ignored.  Finally, embarrassed, I left.  During a later discussion with the wife, I learned that the husband apparently decided that there was nothing to discuss and has to date made no attempt to reschedule the appointment.  Perhaps he feels there is nothing to discuss, but I feel there is.  It seems to me that a man who has taken the role of preaching should be open to hearing from the congregation, and trying to made sure that problems are discussed and rectified, so that resentment doesn't crop up.  We have no elders here and it is a small congregation.  Thanks in advance.

MaSouth:  It definitely applies to my situation, but the person was unwilling to discuss it, and the wife is saying that she remembers it differently than I do.  If this was the case, then the problem would have been discussed and remedied.  He's the preacher and she has been trying to get him to do the right thing for weeks, but he doesn't believe he has to answer to anyone (i.e.--"a woman") concerning what he teaches.
                                     
                                           Kizzie

Matthew 18:15 does apply here.  If you cannot find two others to go back with you, then go straight to the church.  If they will not listen then find another congregation.  

Remember that the other person was the one who started it and if a fight were to result in the church because of the issue at hand keep your cool and focus. You would not have brought it to the church's attention if you did not feel it was very important and the way the guy sloffs you off is a pointer to the fact he cannot defend whatever he did.

Booty:  Thank you for your thoughful reply to my problem.  I appreciate your suggestions and will take them to heart.  My only concern is that you said his wife "commanded" her husband to send the children from the room.  I agree with you whole-heartedly that she should have done it herself, but I do not think that making a request of my husband concerning the childrens' presence is a command.  One other thing--we are a very small congregation and do not have a preacher as such, rather this is a Christian who gives the lesson on Sunday.  He is employed secularly full-time, and is not a paid preacher.  As far as the gender issue is concerned, he has made it plain that women are to be silent (i.e.- mute) whenever male Christians are present for a study, including mid-week studies. I disagree with this entirely.  When we gather on Sunday to worship and break bread, yes, but during Bible studies, I disagree.  Needless to say, it creates resentment and hard feelings that should not be.  Kizzie

Kizzie,
 I agree with everyone elses responses, but I will add this.  If this individual has a problem discussing anything with a female then try taking  a man or 2 with you to discuss this problem.  Maybe he will discuss with men.  Are you married?  If so, would he go with you?  If not, find some man or men you trust.
Sad situation in need of prayers.
Susie

I have to agree with Susie. If you are dealing with a person who refuses to listen to because he believes a woman has no right nor authority to speak to him on a church matter then you are wasting your time trying to speak to him. He isn't going to listen to you, and anything you say will be offensive.

If you want to be a part of that congregation and effectively have the matter addressed you will have to find a males or males to present your side.

I don't think its right but you are going to be wasting your time otherwise.

I am a paid preacher who serves a wonderful congregation.  Money has not been a controlling leash here.  They have blessed my family and I.  I hope that I am not a rare case

Kizzie,

It may be that we have been in a similar situation and if I can speak from my experience then perhaps I can offer you some practical advice.

If you are the only member who feels the minister needs to be corrected, then I feel there is little to no hope for the situation in the near future ... especially if the problem being addressed (or is actively not being addressed, as is common in such cases) has to do with gender-justice. Save yourself a lot of agony and grief and just move on. However, if you choose to stay, ground yourself deeply in prayer and in the Word and study, study, study. There are many, many books written by members of the church and other people who are just as frustrated as you are which address the damage we inflict on the church and the world by refusing to study what God intended for Man and Woman in Christian community.

Now, if there are others who share your insight about the minister. I suggest that you all get together and write a very loving group letter to him. Now, I do mean LOVING ... not that cynical pretend-loving which says "in love we see that you are a mean, ignorant, self-centered misogynist ..." because that sort of thing will not induce change, only venom. Make the letter as long as necessary in order to be as thorough as you can be so that there are no surprises later on. If you quote something he said, precede it with "As I recall, you said in the Sunday morning sermon, 'The most detestable thing in the world to me is an uppity woman!'" Have all those involved read the letter and proof it for any language or statments that will make him flare. Tell him your feelings, not what you think of him. For instance, you might say: "It makes me feel so unloved by God and my fellow Christians when I hear men teach that only uppity-women desire to speak in Bible class." rather than, "Don't you want to hear what the women in church have to say about scripture. If not, why not? Are you afraid of women, Fred ... hummmm... Is that it?" If you keep it to how YOU feel and not what you think of him, you leave little room for argument and perhaps will open the door to real dialogue. How can one argue with the feelings of another? If he keeps telling you that you have no right to feel the way you do, that you should be more submissive and your feelings will fall in line ... don't argue. Don't accuse. Simply repeat your descriptions of your feelings ... humiliation, low self-esteem ... Keep writing him polite and informative letters about your studies and DO NOT expect any responses. Don't worry, he's reading. "Dear Fred, In our last conversation you told me I need to be more submissive. I have been thinking and praying about that. I would like to share with you what I have learned about submission in my Bible studies." Then proceed to share your studies. In this way you will both grow in wisdom through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You have stepped onto a long, long road Tizzie. Let me know how it goes.

I hope this has a good outcome, Kizzie.