Starting over

Lacy · Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 22:48:59

No, it was another Lacy. After attending Freed-Hardeman and Harding College in the 50s, I ministered in WV, IL, MI and NY with the Church of Christ, and in IN, CA, MO and IL with the Church of God (Anderson,IN), until I retired in '96. I spent the past year writing a book--which I am now attempting to get published--about the codification and thwarting (legalism and liberalism) of Jesus' intention, as I observed and experienced it in these two churches.

A little "Large disciple", I weigh only 150 pounds at 78.

Lacy

nerdneh · Sat Jul 27, 2002 - 03:47:12

Lacy, legalism is a curse, but why is it so popular? Because we think we can do God's Work better than He can? I have been baffled and thwarted, discougaged and determined about all the rules and regulations we constantly invent, embroider and force on disciples.

Welcome and I know you will bless us with your insights.

Lacy · Tue Jul 30, 2002 - 15:15:39

Wiley,

No I haven't tried the two publishers you mentioned. I have a query letter off to Standard Publishing and I'll have to wait to see if they are interested before I inquire of another. Bbbut I will keep these names in case Standard declines. Thanks much.

You've noticed that, no matter how conservative you are, everyone to your right will call you a liberal, while everyone to your left will call you a conservative. Having spent fifty years in ministry in both a legalistic and a liberal church, I am somewhere in the middle.

Thanks for the response. This is very interesting and helpful.

In His service,

Lacy

serving_him_only · Thu Aug 01, 2002 - 15:43:58

Good morning, all:

I have come up with a definition of LIBERAL and CONSERVATIVE. CONSERVATIVE: One who has no real understanding of what God wants us to be under the Law of Christ. LIBERAL: One who has a much better understanding of what God wants us to be under the Law of Christ, sometimes going overboard in their zeal.

That said, I would add this: My understanding is this: God looks at the intent of the heart, the condition of the heart. Under the old Law, circumcision of the flesh was the sign. Under the New Law, circumcision of the heart is the sign. Conservatives would have you believe that if you don't obey as they have determined you must, it won't make any difference what the condition of your heart is. I say they are as wrong as can be on this point.

Have a blessed day in Him

spurly · Thu Sep 26, 2002 - 13:17:21

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (kanham @ Aug. 22 2002,3:43)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lacy,

It seems that all movements head in one direction or the other, legalism or liberalism. I am reminded of The Parable of the Weeds in Matt13. I wonder if we spend our time trying to uproot weeds when our Master has told us he will take care of that.

I guess in the end you would have to know that the movement that came would some day stray from the original goals and either become legalistic or liberal. I still believe that God could use it. I believe God would bring another group of people up when the movement has reached a point of legalism or liberalism and the cycle would begin again until the end.

Random thoughts from a random mind.[/quote]
I like the thought that God continously raises up new people and new movements to accomplish his goal. The logical next question for us in the restoration movement is this: Do we need to move away from our movement and embrace the next wave that God is using to bring his grace and mercy to a world that needs it. Note, that I didn't say, should we move away from truth or should we move away from Scripture, but when will we know that it is time to get off the restoration movement wave and ride the next big wave that God is sending to bring people to him?

Spurly

Lacy · Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 16:04:08

Hi All,

I am a new member; just logged inthis morning. I am a retired paster with time on my hands after writing a book I am now attempting to get published.

I heard Carl Ketcherside say, "If the Church of Christ doesn't get back to the business of Restoration, God will find some more Presbyterians and start over again." They didn't, God did. The CoC is still bound by legalism and manrule and God is using this, and other such medius, as a way of starting over.

I once said, "I am a disciple at large," and a woman responded by saying, "And I am a large disciple." I am no longer a member of the sectarian CoC but I'm happy to be a part of the Remnant of God, along with you.

Yours in Christ's service,

Lacy

Bill · Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 19:32:08

Welcome to GCM, Lacy. Look forward to hearing from you.

Bill

Booty · Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 23:07:42

Welcome Lacy, God bless. I am the board conservative so watch what you say!

Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 23:30:24

78? That is so cool! I love elderly gentlemen. They usually know what's what and are so often totally hot! Like Cary Grant, the older he got, the better! Anyway, Welcome!
(Don't worry. I'm harmless. Just a big flirt of a gal.)

Lacy · Sat Jul 27, 2002 - 04:34:07

Why is legalism so popular? Because humans are so insecure. It's not that we want to play God, but that we are so insecure in our faith that we fail to trust Him. We have to devise other means of feeling secure. The Church of Christ used to have a slogan (often a sermon title), "The way that's right and can't be wrong." It's the same as when the Muslims say, "There is no God except that Mohammet is his prophet." This need is also why we find fault with others, judging their faith by our CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE. If they are differenmt from us "they have to be wrong." And, haven "proven" them wrong, we pride ourselves in our righteousness. Some people just have to be right; others have to be holy. The former play God; the latter know God.

Lacy

Bumpman · Tue Jul 30, 2002 - 04:48:48

Lacy,
I admire your stand for the truth and your comment on being silent where the bible is silent. You are truly a man of great wisdom and insight where others have been blinded by legalism
and pharisee ideas. I look forward to future posts from you Lacy. GOD bless you.

John Bumpers
Midland, TX

WileyClarkson · Tue Jul 30, 2002 - 14:58:11

Lacy,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is legalism so popular? Because humans are so insecure. It's not that we want to play God, but that we are so insecure in our faith that we fail to trust Him. [/quote]

Oh, man, that is so true!!! And when we are that insecure in our faith we make up rules that we apply to everyone else (mostly other denominations/christians who have a slightly different view) to prove to ourselves we are saved and they are not. A very sad truth!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am a conservative also, but not a legalist--I believe in being silent where the Bible is silent!
[/quote]

It's surprising how much has been written about the meaning of a subject that nothing is said about in Scripture. While I also classify myself a conservative and believe in being silent where there is silence (although I have been labeled a liberal by many of my more legalistic friends), I personally tend to go the route that we have freedom where something is not expressively forbidden or that the Bible is silent on.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm looking for a publisher. Pray for my success in this effort. My two chapters on the churches are highly autobigraphical and critical, like I "been there done that!"
[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, have you tried Howard Publishing and ACU Press? The subject matter sounds like something one of those might be interested in.

And before I forget, a big Texas WELCOME to the GCMF. We are pleased to have you with us. If you wish to learn more about me and my family (that is if you wish to torture yourself with that type of stuff :D) just follow the link below.

http://www.clarksons.org/aboutus.htm

Grace to you and peace.

Wiley

janine · Tue Jul 30, 2002 - 16:52:44

Hey, Lacy, well come.

I wonder how much verbiage we would have on the GCM forums if we really-truly lived by keeping silent where the Bible is silent?

I have seen other boards that would snuff out of existence if they applied that idea to themselves.

mike · Thu Aug 01, 2002 - 05:03:15

Lacy, Welcome to the GCM board! Most of us are in varying stages of recovery from legalistic teaching.

Your thread has an intriguing title. However, I wonder if we should be more concerned with continuing the process of reformation. I confess that I am no longer interested much in the process of restoration. I just want to be the 21st century Christian that God wants me to be.

Mike
:D

Lacy · Thu Aug 01, 2002 - 19:50:19

All of you have had given encouraging and helpful replies to my suggestion of starting over. Does any one have any idea how we could start over. The Restoration Movement, which burned so brightly in the beginning, burned out and left some smoldering Legalists and Liberals to show for our almost two hundred years of effort. And look what has become of Luther's Reformation! The Church of God (Anderson, IN) began in 1880 as a Weslyan Holiness "Church of God Reformation Movement," and today it is deeply committed to the Ecumenical Movement and teaches Liberation Theology (by any other name it is still LT), in the School of Theology.and the pastors have brought it back to the churches. In a recent Sunday Bible class, their class book said that we make a mistake when we try to make Isaiah's statmeent "The Spirit of the Lord is on me," apply to any one person, since God had a number os servants, on whom He put His Spirit, ie. Cyrus and the Nation of Israel. This in spite of the fact that Jesus said clearly that the "Me" was Himself.

So, that's what happens to Reformation Movements. They don't fair any better than Restoration Movements.

I know it's lonely, guys and girls, being large disciples--I mean desciples at large--but what choice do we have. Just worship and serve where you can, when you can, and belong to the Lord only. (I envy you though if you are happy in a church.)We are a remnant, I suppose; or maybe we are the majority, who knows? And we will find one another without putting up a sign, and will love one another as dear brothers and sisters in Christ, without having to live and love by the rules.

Love you,

Lacy

kanham · Thu Aug 22, 2002 - 19:43:48

Lacy,

It seems that all movements head in one direction or the other, legalism or liberalism. I am reminded of The Parable of the Weeds in Matt13. I wonder if we spend our time trying to uproot weeds when our Master has told us he will take care of that.

I believe all have failed at their goal of restoration/reformation of groups because it was the wrong goal. I believe God has used these movements to further his kingdom, people, but He has done it His way, not ours.

How should we treat Jesus' warning about new wine in old wineskins? I wonder if something new isn't needed, not because we can restore, but God may be calling for a new vessel to begin a new work in this time. I know unity is such an issue and should be, but in my experience I see people locked in with legalist's for the sake of unity. The same legalist's who have caused countless divisions, and yet we are concerned with being united with them? Not sure that makes sense or is the scriptural point of unity. My view on this is still evolving but I wonder if scriptural unity would be better served with a split?

I guess in the end you would have to know that the movement that came would some day stray from the original goals and either become legalistic or liberal. I still believe that God could use it. I believe God would bring another group of people up when the movement has reached a point of legalism or liberalism and the cycle would begin again until the end.

Man's goal for unity in both movements has failed, if we seek to unify people instead of groups of people, and we unify for the right reason, Jesus Christ, that sounds powerful to me.

The end result shouldn't cloud anyone from starting because the weeds will always exist.

Random thoughts from a random mind.

OldDad · Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 18:10:41

Lacy,

Welcome to the GCM board, from another large disciple! I knew a Lacy who ministered in the Atlanta area during the 1980's, visited his church a time or two while a Bible college student. You, possibly?

OD

Lacy · Fri Jul 26, 2002 - 23:20:28

I am a conservative also, but noit a legalist--I believe in being silent where the Bible is silent!

Lacy

Lacy · Tue Jul 30, 2002 - 14:14:25

Bumpman,

Thank you for your kind comment. I know that I, like others, have my blind spots, but I have spent a lot of years learning how to see what I can see clearly today. Like Paul, when he set out as a Pharisee to rid the world of Christians, I set out from my CoC training to red the world of "sectarians," not realizing that I had just been brainwashed into being one. Then one day, like the fellow who realised he was a legalist, I "sez" to myself, "My God, I am a Pharisee!" Then I began to understand GRACE.

I know that God delivered me when I finally learned to put my faith in Christ rather than in the church, but the greatest help I have had by far is an in-depth study of Romans. And the greatest aid I have had in that study is the commentary on Romans by Anders Nygren. Everyone should study it.

After retiring in 1996, I have preached wherever I was called and, for the last year I have written a book on the reason why Jesus came to our world, how He did what He intended to do, commissioned Paul to continue with his preaching that GRACE IS ABOVE THE LAW, and how the church was to continue extending Jesus' intention. Then I have a chapter on "Apostasy," beginning with the churches of Asia (Rev. 2, 3) and early GNOSTICISM, and another on "Libeation Theology," which is clearly todays "gnoisticism," and two chapters on the two churches I have been with -- the CoC and the CoG (Anderson, IN). The former Restoration Movement failed because they CODIFIED the intention of Jesus and changed the Movement into another legal system, and the latter Reformation failed because they THWARTED the intention of Jesus and went off into modernism. I conclude with a chapter on the "Love of God," expressed in Redemption and Reconciliation.

I'm looking for a publisher. Pray for my success in this effort. My two chapters on the churches are highly autobigraphical and critical, like I "been there done that!"

God bless,

Lacy

nerdneh · Wed Jul 31, 2002 - 02:38:36

Lacy, I like Nygren as well, he brings a certain Nordic understanding to the text. As of now, I find two other commentaries helpful. The first is the two volume series by C. Cranfield and the other is the Commentary by Ernst Kasemann. Both are helpful in the study of Romans, as far as I am concerned.

spurly · Thu Aug 22, 2002 - 15:29:03

My prayer has always been that the Christian Churches/ Churches of Christ/ and Disciples of Christ would start over again in their quest for Unity on the Basis of God's Word alone. It seems that the movement lost its fire, when it lost sight of the vision for the unity of the church that Christ prayed for so long ago.

Is it a prayer that will ever be answered? I don't know. But with faith we can move mountains, even mountains that don't want to be moved.

Spurly

seekr · Thu Aug 22, 2002 - 18:01:59

spurly, a couple of scriptures came to mind reading your last post. "...if I have a faith that can move mountains and have not love, I am nothing". Love is what brings about unity and that can only be achieved by our willingness to be filled with His love and not our "take" on any rules or regulations.

The next scripture I have thought about before also, as I do not fully comprehend it, is Luke 18:8. "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

seekr

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