Christian Forums

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]btw, there are a few Cthlthu cults in this part of the country because of the existence of the actual entrances to the underground lairs not far away.   :alien:[/quote]
EEEEeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww.

I guess what confuses me about all of this is that you seem to have bought into what is to me the least compelling aspect of Athiesm--the utter dependence on the wisdom of man.  As I've written before I'm much too aware of my own failings to hold myself up as a standard for anything.

btw, I wonder what percentage of people reading this board are scratching their heads at the Cthulthu references.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,2:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Then you have never read Lovecraft?  Early twentieth century horror/science fiction.  Cthulthu was one of the elder gods. Big guy with tentacles.

Determining whether a specific Deity exists in order to determine whether God exists is like trying to find a particular speceis of spotted owl in order to prove that birds exist.  The existence of birds must be assumed before it can be determined whether a particular bird exists.  In the same way the existence of God must be decided on before one decides whether a particular Deity exists.

And I know this sounds like a cop out to many (I had a class once where I was told such thoughts were invalid), but each individual must determine for himself whether there is a God.  And part of what tells me there is a God (one thing amony many) is that my own inadequacies point to a higher standard I cannot reach. This realization helps determine the starting point that leads to faith in the Christian God.  This is a general-to-specific process.[/quote]
BH:

I have never read Lovecraft though I have heard of him.  So Cthlthu was never worshipped except in the fiction books?

"Determining whether a specific Deity exists in order to determine whether God exists is like trying to find a particular speceis of spotted owl in order to prove that birds exist.  The existence of birds must be assumed before it can be determined whether a particular bird exists.  In the same way the existence of God must be decided on before one decides whether a particular Deity exists."

BH:

But we have shown birds exist.  You have not even proven step 1 "a god exists" so how can you go to step 2 " (fill in deity's name her) as god exists."


"And I know this sounds like a cop out to many (I had a class once where I was told such thoughts were invalid), but each individual must determine for himself whether there is a God.  And part of what tells me there is a God (one thing amony many) is that my own inadequacies point to a higher standard I cannot reach. This realization helps determine the starting point that leads to faith in the Christian God.  This is a general-to-specific process."

BH:

I am not trying to be rude, but I do feel it is a cop out on your part somewhat. Why not realize your own inadequacies and trust Allah of the Koran for answers?   Muslims, Jews, and Christians as well as other faiths have slugged it out over millenia over what amounts to nothing more than opinion over who has the real god.  It was a waste of time, money, lives, ect.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 17 2002,2:17)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH:

I am not trying to be rude, but I do feel it is a cop out on your part somewhat. Why not realize your own inadequacies and trust Allah of the Koran for answers?   Muslims, Jews, and Christians as well as other faiths have slugged it out over millenia over what amounts to nothing more than opinion over who has the real god.  It was a waste of time, money, lives, ect.[/quote]
Yes BH, much brutality has been done in the name of God or gods.  Much hatred has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam, Judaism and Atheism.

But do the problems of man negate the existance of God?  Because man is messed up in the head, does that mean that God does not exist?

I think that most of the problems that we see with religion causing mayhem boil down to one of two things.  People don't understand who God is and who he wants them to be, or they follow a false god, and instead of being controlled by God they are controlled by the evil side.

Just my two cents,

Kevin

PS  Thanks for being open enough to discuss this in a civil way.  I hope to grow by continuing this discussion.

Would a kindly moderator please clean up my post above. :D

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,2:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH:  There are large corruptions in the Bible text  which apparently are not discussed in preaching schools very much or are downplayed.  I will pm you several examples if you want them.

The Bible teaches that there are evil entities such as demons and devils that are out to get man and destroy him.  I'll spare you the references since you know them already.  These corruptions in the text were not all honest scribal mistakes but often times consist of whole chapters and sections of chapters.  The Bible teaches that Satan or demons tempt man to sin and even in some cases can inspire fortune tellers (Acts 16) and inspire false prophets.  The only way you can prove that demons or Satan did not inspire the Bible or parts of it would be to gather up every orginal manuscript of the Bible and compare them to an absolute objective moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God. Most people on the board have heard this already and know where I am going with it.  [/quote]
BH,

Many of the corruptions and discrepencies you referred to were discussed in our theology and Bible classes.  The professors didn't gloss over them, they admitted they were there and tried to give their reasoning as to how they could be explained.

I went to a website one time that purported to have 600 so called Biblical discrepencies, most of them could be explained very easily, although some of them, I admit, could not.  What do I do with the ones that cannot be explained?  Continue to study.  Continue to dig.  Why?  Because I have faith that God's word is true.

Many of the Biblical discrepencies that scholars of the early 18th century through the early 19th century have since been harmonized by archeology and new discoveries like the dead sea scrolls.  

Any time you would like to PM me some of those that you have, that would be great.  However, other people might be better at untangling certain mysteries than myself.  If you want to let the whole board see some of those, we might all learn from them.

It took me a while to figure out what you were referring to with the illusion to demonic forces.  I want to make sure I understand you right.  Are you saying that we can not know for sure that it was the Holy Spirit who inspired certain parts of Scripture, and it may well have been evil spirits?  And how do we know who inspired what?  

I, like you, wish we could find every original manuscript.  Maybe one of these days the Pauline Corpus or something like that might be found.  

Here's another question I have for you.  You mentioned a couple of times that we needed to be able to compare Scripture to an absolute moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God.  If this world was created by a God, doesn't it make sense that the absolute moral standard that exists in our world could not be seperated from the one who created it?  I know that sounds like a circular argument, but I think it is true.  What holes do you see in it?

More in my next post.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,2:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"BH said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

Spurly said:
I'm assuming you are referring to good health, a good life, etc.  But my question for you is this, are those the only real blessings, and are those things really blessings all the time?  Some other extremely blessed blessings are joy, peace, freedom from guilt, contentment, love, justification, friendships, family, etc.  Sometimes good heath and everything going good causes us to take God for granted because we don't need him to provide for us."

BH:  
If god exists he can bless his followers and curse his enemies all the while making sure we do not take him for granted.

If his standards are not going to make things better for us, why follow them.  I think you know very well what I am alluding to here.[/quote]
BH,

I am not sure what you are alluding to in your last sentence in the quote.  Please explain a little more.

I think his standards make life much better here.  If we followed his standards and the people we interact with follow his standards, they would protect his from emotional scars, guilt, pain of separation for children whose parents divorce, many diseases brought on by immoral lifestyles, and much more.

Not only that, following his standards provides joy, hope, peace, contentment, and many other blessings.  Indeed those who follow him are blessed in this life many times over.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 18 2002,9:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"Here's another question I have for you.  You mentioned a couple of times that we needed to be able to compare Scripture to an absolute moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God.  If this world was created by a God, doesn't it make sense that the absolute moral standard that exists in our world could not be seperated from the one who created it?  I know that sounds like a circular argument, but I think it is true.  What holes do you see in it?"

BH:  As a believer (and this was true of me at one time too) you are conditioned to believe "God said it, so it is right {scientifically, morally, ect}and that is the end of the matter."  Some evil person or entity like Satan would want to take advantage of your faith that "God is right, end of question" to get to you believe false and erroneous doctrines morally, spiritually, and scientifically.  The Devil (or just tricky men) once they brainwash you to believe something came from God, know that you would do whatever they wanted you to do or believe as long as you thought God willed it.

The only way you can know what is truly God's will as compared to evil men forging a doctrine in the Bible and presenting it as  God's will  is to subject God to an absolute objective standard seperate from his own will.  This idea does not detract from the idea of God being all powerful.

Spurly,

I guess I am through for now.  Thanks for letting me get caught up.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Fate @ Dec. 19 2002,6:32)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H.,

Why would God play that game with us anyway? :saint:[/quote]
Maybe because he does not exist.

I am not going to get home till after seven o'clock Friday night.  I'll be back on the board sometime after then.

Kevin,
I just don't believe that someone who doesn't believe the bible should be discussing it with believers.Why?entertainment...or a game..or what.

We all like BH,he's fine.It's just his belief system is inappropriate for a christian forum. The heart of an atheist is not the same as the heart of a Christian.Jesus is Lord to one and to the other he is nothing.BH is honest with his feelings and I care for him as a person but his belief system is not in fellowship with our community.

Just my opinion.

God bless,Charles :D

I admit I like to win the debates I get into, but you are a very good friend of mine and do not want to see you "lose".  In all honesty I am going to warn you that you have gotten yourself in a dangerous position here regarding your last post and my reply directly above.  Tread the waters carefully my friend.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH,

I am really enjoying this conversation.  But I have a question for you.

It seems the onus is always put on people who believe in a god to prove that their god exists, whether that God be Jehovah, Allah, or Zeus.  

But my question is this.  What if the shoe were on the other foot.  What if someone asked you to prove that a god did not exist?  How would you respond.

Kevin[/quote]
I freely admit I cannot PROVE 100% a god exists no more than I can prove little green men on Mars do not exist or that the city of Corsicana, TX is not run by giant green spiders wearing purple polk-a-dot ties.

:p My opinion is that faith is where the rubber meets the road.The bible is clear that we believe by faith.We are christians because we choose to believe and atheist choose not to believe.No need to prove either side.

However,we come to these forums for encouragement to our faith,that's what church is all about.I don't believe that atheism and Christianity  belong together on a forum.Kindness,good manners,and love can prevail on both sides and that's good,but belief and unbelief are not compatable.

When we have some who pledge allegiance to the bible and some who deny Gen1:1,there is no room for compatability.

Just my thoughts on a very early morning.God bless,Charles

We have had our little side track discussion over whether I should be allowed here or not.  Please let Spurly and I continue our discussion unmolested.

Double post.  My bad.

B.H., what occurence, happening, whatever... what thing, would it take for you to (a) acknowledge there is some sort of God, and (b) decide He is worth committing yourself to?

Yep, all those crazies around.  Once they know your age they can steal your identity.   :sarcasim:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Dec. 17 2002,08:50)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H., what occurence, happening, whatever... what thing, would it take for you to (a) acknowledge there is some sort of God, and (b) decide He is worth committing yourself to?[/quote]
1.  He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.

2.  Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.

3.  He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.

4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding!

4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.

5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why should YOU make the rules regarding what proves God's existence?[/quote]

Ummm, no, that's not what I said.  I was saying who are we to say what God should be like.  Quite a different question.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:14)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]To clarify, you are saying, if I'm understanding this right, that you do not believe in God because He is not what you would expect Him to be.  I'm not arguing what type of evidence is required to believe in God (the original question), but rather the validity of our putting expectations on God (an offshoot of your answer).[/quote]
My views are my views.

How would YOU tell if deity was Baal or Jehovah, who have conflicting theologies? ANSWER:  your own personal set of standards.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I guess what confuses me about all of this is that you seem to have bought into what is to me the least compelling aspect of Athiesm--the utter dependence on the wisdom of man.  As I've written before I'm much too aware of my own failings to hold myself up as a standard for anything.

btw, I wonder what percentage of people reading this board are scratching their heads at the Cthulthu references.[/quote]
I know.  I had never heard of him before going over to II.  There is one guy over there who claims he used to worship him or something.  It is a strange name and I guess the name stuck in my head for that reason.

I am sorry you have such low self confidence in your species yet you are going to have to use "wisdom of man" to determine which god exists or whether or not a god does not exist.

Now, how do you know the one true deity™ is Jehovah, Baal, Allah, or Quezelcoltl (sp?)?  You are, by default, put in a position where you will actually expect a god to meet your standards to determine his existence.  True,it is possible that a deity exists that could care less what we think and stay off to himself.

That brings me back to my definition of atheism: a lack of faith in deity.  A deity may exists but could care less about us.  That fact, from a personally pragmatic standpoint, is no different than if that deity did not exist.  He could care less about us, how we act, think, ect. so it is no different than if he did not exist.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 17 2002,12:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H., what occurence, happening, whatever... what thing, would it take for you to (a) acknowledge there is some sort of God, and (b) decide He is worth committing yourself to?[/quote]
1.  He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.

2.  Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.

3.  He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.

4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding!

4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.

5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]
I thought Janine's question would be too simple.  I had a feeling that there was going to be more than one thing, happening, or circumstance that would convince you to believe that a god exists, much less the God of the Bible.

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.[/quote]

How would he do this?  From my limited point, being a finite human being, how could he break through and let me know for sure that his words were really his words?

For me he has satisfied that question in the following ways:
1 - Prophecies all through scripture, spoken years before the actual events took place, and then came true.  How could this happen?  A God who sits outside of time and is not subject to time so he can see from the beginning to the end, allowed a prophet to know something far in advance and then used that prophet for a mouthpiece.  There are too many fulfilled prophecies for me to believe it was just conincidence.

2- If there is a god, and that god chooses to reveal himself to us, he would do it ways we could understand.  He did that all through Scripture, and he always kept Scripture consistant so as not to confuse us.

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.[/quote]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "how it could have been" scenarios.  However, if you look at the Scripture down through the ages, what we have now, is pretty consistent with the earliest texts that have been found.  I know there are thorny questions like, how did Mark 16:9-20 get in there?  What happened to the other letters Paul wrote to Corinth?  Etc.  But by and large, we have a copy that is very close to the original.  The mistakes that are in the text can easily be accounted for by copyist errors or errors in translation.  How do you think God could keep his word pure in a fallen world with other forces trying to corrupt it?  If you were God, what would you have done differently (not trying to be facetious).

You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.[/quote]

If this is an expectation you have before you will believe in the existence of a god, I can see why you are an atheist.  By my question is, why would a god have to do that?  If he were God, why would he want to tell us exactly how to solve every problem we have.  Why wouldn't he want us to use the wisdom and common sense he gave us to help us understand, limited though that understanding may be, our messed up world.  If that were the case, and we never had any problems, why would we need a god?

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding![/quote]

Coming from another branch of the restoration movement, I don't even know who those people are.

You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.[/quote]

Boy, this would be nice.  But men and women have a tendency to mess up even things that are clear and concise.  Think how many pages of commentaries have been written over the shortest verse in the Bible.  The way I look at commentaries is the way I look at any thing written by man - get the true things out of it, and throw the rest of it away.  That may be one reason God gave us a mind.

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

I'm assuming you are referring to good health, a good life, etc.  But my question for you is this, are those the only real blessings, and are those things really blessings all the time?  Some other extremely blessed blessings are joy, peace, freedom from guilt, contentment, love, justification, friendships, family, etc.  Sometimes good heath and everything going good causes us to take God for granted because we don't need him to provide for us.

I know you have sincerely thought out where you stand on a lot of these issues.  I know you have searched for truth wherever you can find it.  I just hope you keep searching for truth and searching for God.  I'm sure you've heard the verse before, "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all of your heart".

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH:

I am not trying to be rude, but I do feel it is a cop out on your part somewhat. Why not realize your own inadequacies and trust Allah of the Koran for answers?   Muslims, Jews, and Christians as well as other faiths have slugged it out over millenia over what amounts to nothing more than opinion over who has the real god.  It was a waste of time, money, lives, ect.[/quote]

No, definitely, no offense taken.  This actually is the same logic that was used by the conservative Christian teacher of the class I referenced.  He believed that evidence of a God wasn't enough, but instead you should start with evidence of a specific God.  He built his beliefs on evidence of the inspiration of the Bible (and ultimately evidence of the resurrection).

I approach this a little differently, and this goes back to something I said earlier, about our decision concerning the existence of God being an individual thing.  Before I determine whether the Bible tells us about God, I have to determine whether there even is a God.  The general has to e determined before the specific can be considered.  My determination, which I have had to work through on my own, is based on physical, experiential and emotional evidence.  You (as well as the teacher I referenced) would most likely deny the relevance of the experiential and emotional evidence.  And the physical includes many things you have previously stated do not impress you (for a sample check out the scientific articles on John Clayton's "Does God Exist" website).  But they do impress me.  I cannot see that the monarch butterfly knowing just where to go even though it has never been there before is a purely scientific occurance.  And I have read the natural explanations for the symbiotic relationships between specific plants and animals which could not exist without the other and felt I have read more convincing fairy tales.  There are many other reasons I believe in God (most of which you would disregard) that I will not go into here.

But these foundations had to be relaid in my mind before I could steadfastly say that I believe in God of my own free will and not because I was simply taught that God exists.  After these foundations were laid, then I could move on to the more specific questions about who God is.

All of this gets me back to the main point I've been talking around.  This concerns what you would need to see before you believe in God.  I notice with interest that much of the evidence you would require is experiential rather than imperical.  You don't talk about scientific method or natural evidence, but rather about justice in the world and God's people being blessed.  

When I consider this along with your conservative Church of Christ background and your tendency to hang around Church of Christ boards and discuss thing in a reasonable manner (I have seen other Athiests on boards whose main purpose seemed to be to disrupt, but you behave differently), I want to make a logical leap.  This leap tells me that you were taught to trust in a system or perhaps in man, that you were taught that a valid religious belief system is absolutely logical.  I was taught a similar thing, although my upbringing was not nearly as conservative as yours.  And my guess is that when you learned that the system you had been taught to believe in was faulty, your faith slipped away, since your faith had been established in this system and your picture of God was of a God who existed as part of this system.  In other words you were taught that God was fully knowable, and when you discovered that He wasn't who you thought he was (something we all discover eventually), you rejected him.  

I may not be right, but these are my impressions.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"I thought Janine's question would be too simple.  I had a feeling that there was going to be more than one thing, happening, or circumstance that would convince you to believe that a god exists, much less the God of the Bible."

BH:  Don't call Janine simple! :p

"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.[/quote]"

BH:  There are large corruptions in the Bible text  which apparently are not discussed in preaching schools very much or are downplayed.  I will pm you several examples if you want them.

The Bible teaches that there are evil entities such as demons and devils that are out to get man and destroy him.  I'll spare you the references since you know them already.  These corruptions in the text were not all honest scribal mistakes but often times consist of whole chapters and sections of chapters.  The Bible teaches that Satan or demons tempt man to sin and even in some cases can inspire fortune tellers (Acts 16) and inspire false prophets.  The only way you can prove that demons or Satan did not inspire the Bible or parts of it would be to gather up every orginal manuscript of the Bible and compare them to an absolute objective moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God. Most people on the board have heard this already and know where I am going with it.  

"How would he do this?  From my limited point, being a finite human being, how could he break through and let me know for sure that his words were really his words?"

BH:  He or you need to provide evidence of an absolute objective moral standard that exists seperate from God which even he is bound by.  You write about your limitations.  Let me ask you this?  If you are so limited and worthless intellectually how do you know an evil entity has not deceived you, or just men for that matter by portraying the Bible or parts of ias God's will when it is in fact not so?

"For me he has satisfied that question in the following ways:
1 - Prophecies all through scripture, spoken years before the actual events took place, and then came true.  How could this happen?  A God who sits outside of time and is not subject to time so he can see from the beginning to the end, allowed a prophet to know something far in advance and then used that prophet for a mouthpiece.  There are too many fulfilled prophecies for me to believe it was just conincidence."

BH:  You have just assumed those were inspired prophesies by God.  For all you and I really know those prophesies were written down later and portrayed as such by priests taking advantage of a gullible public.  Secondly, remember how the Bible teaches there is a Satan and demons?  How do you know that an evil entity did not inspire those prophesies?  Last, though you will disagree obviously, I think there are plenty of cases where a prophesy was made and they failed.  Many supposed prophesies when later claimed to be fulfilled in the Bible, when looked at in the original context, had nothing  to do with the event that "fulfilled" it.

If I can show you cases where prophesies had been fulfilled in the Koran, would you give up Christianity and become a Muslim?  


"2- If there is a god, and that god chooses to reveal himself to us, he would do it ways we could understand.  He did that all through Scripture, and he always kept Scripture consistant so as not to confuse us."

BH:  God is supposedly omnipotent so he should have no trouble providing us with an incorrupted text, show us a absolute moral standard seperate and apart from himself so as to know we are not being deceived by men or devils in "the name of God."


"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.[/quote]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "how it could have been" scenarios.  However, if you look at the Scripture down through the ages, what we have now, is pretty consistent with the earliest texts that have been found.  I know there are thorny questions like, how did Mark 16:9-20 get in there?  What happened to the other letters Paul wrote to Corinth?  Etc.  But by and large, we have a copy that is very close to the original.  The mistakes that are in the text can easily be accounted for by copyist errors or errors in translation.  How do you think God could keep his word pure in a fallen world with other forces trying to corrupt it?  If you were God, what would you have done differently (not trying to be facetious)."

BH:  A "how-it-could-have-been-scenario" is a theory developed to explain away contradictions in the Bible.  For example, the "scribal error" defense is such a one.  You do not know that a contradiction was caused by scribal error, you just assume it to be so.  There are other examples I could cite but will pass that on for later.

Again you bring up the quality of the biblical manuscripts as proof of God. You just assume what we have now is very close to the original. A lot of things can happen to a book over time. Let me pm you the examples I mentioned above and we can come back to this later.

One thing I will say now is that an all powerful God, if he exists, could have kept his written word safe somehow someway.  The fact he has not makes the Bible no different from other holy books in that regard.


"You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.[/quote]

If this is an expectation you have before you will believe in the existence of a god, I can see why you are an atheist.  By my question is, why would a god have to do that?  If he were God, why would he want to tell us exactly how to solve every problem we have.  Why wouldn't he want us to use the wisdom and common sense he gave us to help us understand, limited though that understanding may be, our messed up world.  If that were the case, and we never had any problems, why would we need a god?"

BH:  Why would he have to do that?  Because it would be something no other God has done that has been worshiped by humanity in the past.  As far as you asking about needing god if our problems are solved I respond that we don't need him because he won't help us solve our problems.

"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding![/quote]

Coming from another branch of the restoration movement, I don't even know who those people are."

BH:  This was a joke against CoC preachers.  I think most of them are dishonest worthless men.


"'You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.[/quote]

Boy, this would be nice.  But men and women have a tendency to mess up even things that are clear and concise.  Think how many pages of commentaries have been written over the shortest verse in the Bible.  The way I look at commentaries is the way I look at any thing written by man - get the true things out of it, and throw the rest of it away.  That may be one reason God gave us a mind."

BH: I'll pass on this part seeing no need for comment at the moment.



"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

I'm assuming you are referring to good health, a good life, etc.  But my question for you is this, are those the only real blessings, and are those things really blessings all the time?  Some other extremely blessed blessings are joy, peace, freedom from guilt, contentment, love, justification, friendships, family, etc.  Sometimes good heath and everything going good causes us to take God for granted because we don't need him to provide for us."

BH:  If god exists he can bless his followers and curse his enemies all the while making sure we do not take him for granted.

If his standards are not going to make things better for us, why follow them.  I think you know very well what I am alluding to here.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,10:18)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]

Quote

"Many of the corruptions and discrepencies you referred to were discussed in our theology and Bible classes.  The professors didn't gloss over them, they admitted they were there and tried to give their reasoning as to how they could be explained."

Bh:  That is good.  At least the professors at your Bible college did not try ot cover them up.  What kind of discrepancies did you discuss?

I went to a website one time that purported to have 600 so called Biblical discrepencies, most of them could be explained very easily, although some of them, I admit, could not.  What do I do with the ones that cannot be explained?  Continue to study.  Continue to dig.  Why?  Because I have faith that God's word is true.

BH:  What kind of discrepancies did you see there?[/quote]
Many of the discrepancies were discrepencies in textual variants in different manuscripts families.  I would have to get my notes from the classes out to refresh myself on them, because it was quite a while ago.

Other discrepencies included things like some scholars believing certain sections of scripture were included in the original manuscripts, while other scholars did not.  (Passages like Romans 16, John 8:1-11, Mark 16:9-20, etc. came up here.)

As far as the website I went to, they were not discussing things like that.  They were talking about things like one gospel says there was one angel at the tomb, another says there were two.  So the Bible doesn't agree with itself.  No one knows if Quirinius was ever governor of Syria, because no extra biblical sources tell us he even existed - so that was suspect.

Are these the types of discrepencies you were referring to, or were you talking about something else?

Kevin

I hope that no one is going to use some personal hurt I felt in the past to explain away why I am an atheist.  Many of us are told such as that and we find it very personally insulting.
It is not true, and the people who make that charge use it because they cannot win an argument against non-belief.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 18 2002,10:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"I don't think you can ascribe prophecy to demonic spirits or the devil himself.  Here's why.  Unlike God, these beings are created beings.  So, unlike God, they are locked into time and space.  They don't sit outside of time, they are involved in literal time and space.  So they can't forsee the future and tell it like God can.  Just my personal opinion."

BH:  I have snipped most of your post containing the above dealing with discussions over different theories of textual formation.  The discussions you appeared to have in class were not the kind I had in mind dealing with the manuscript variants spoken of earlier.  If you disagree feel free to bring a specific point to my attention.

Now to the qoute above.  The devil is supposedly a wiley and slick fellow.  I have already given you a passage where a girl prophesied the future in acts via a devil.  However, let us say I am wrong on that.  Let us say the Bible teaches that the demons and devils cannot do such as the above. The devils do tempt people do they not?  We have different manuscript variants which are no doubt willful additions or subtractions.  How do you know that devils (who might have tempted men to add to the Bible) made sure that the Bible gave you the impression they could not predict the future and inspire people to decive you.  They just made  sure the Bible was corrupted to make you think they could not do the things you think they cannot do.  After all, God did allow his text to become corrupt, so you cannot assume just what God would also allow to be done or not done regarding demons and the text.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
If his standards are not going to make things better for us, why follow them.  I think you know very well what I am alluding to here.[/quote]


""I am not sure what you are alluding to in your last sentence in the quote.  Please explain a little more.""

BH: Following the supposed rules laid down by God do not end our problems.  Often times those who disobey them prosper at their "disobedience", and often times trying to obey "God's" laws is what lead people down the road to poverty and redundancy.  Also, much of "God's" law is nebulous and unclear regarding right and wrong in given situations. I'll go in more detail later if you wish.


""I think his standards make life much better here.  If we followed his standards and the people we interact with follow his standards, they would protect his from emotional scars, guilt, pain of separation for children whose parents divorce, many diseases brought on by immoral lifestyles, and much more.

Not only that, following his standards provides joy, hope, peace, contentment, and many other blessings.  Indeed those who follow him are blessed in this life many times over.""

BH:  These rules may give some guideance to people, but often times they are nebulous in given situations and fail to solve our problems over all. Some of the laws of God are downright bad in my opinion and have caused lots of harm and suffering.  This is to me a sign that these rules are manmade, though attributed to God to get people to want to obey them.

B.H.,

Why would God play that game with us anyway? :saint:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here are my thoughts.

If a god did exist, and the primary reason he created the universe was to have a relationship with people whom he loved, he would want those people to have a choice.  He would want them to be able to choose to love him or to choose not to love him.  (I know Calvinists don't believe in free will, but I don't want to go there right now.  That is another subject for another time.  Back to the topic at hand).

If God wanted us to choose to love him, then what you described above would really negate any choice.  Everybody would choose to have a relationship with him, and many people would choose to have that relationship for the wrong reasons.  Either they would choose to have a relationship out of fear of being destroyed, or cursed, in this life (with disease, depression, poverty, pain, etc.), or they would choose to follow him for the blessings that they could get out of it.  Like God was some big politician doling out goodies to his cronies.

But God wants us to choose to have a relationship with him for altogether different reasons.  He wants us to choose to have a relationship with him because we love him.  Plain and simple.

The requirement you are putting on god to prove that he exists would negate that for many people.

Kevin[/quote]
God could have created us where we would have no problems yet still have the ability to choose to love him sincerely or not.  This may seem logically impossible, but remember he supposedly created logic.  He could have created logic where it would entail the above. So, you get the best of both worlds:  we have no problems yet we still can sincerely choose to love God or not.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I think the argument you used above is just a rationalization of how the world is today.  You (generic you) cannot change how the world is so you invent the idea of "free will" to rationalize away the idea of God when faced with the problems we suffer from.  I am not saying you (spurly) willfully are trying to do that, but that your predeccessors in ministry have done so and passed the fallacy down to you.

BH,

I am really enjoying this conversation.  But I have a question for you.

It seems the onus is always put on people who believe in a god to prove that their god exists, whether that God be Jehovah, Allah, or Zeus.  

But my question is this.  What if the shoe were on the other foot.  What if someone asked you to prove that a god did not exist?  How would you respond.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He already said elsewhere that he cannot prove God does not exist.

Can one prove a negative?

What is this thing you have about "winning" and "being right", BH?

Oh, I forgot.  You're Church of Christ, born/bred/blood/bone.[/quote]
I do remember him saying that.  But I was just wanting to see what his response would be to that question.

Janine, your comment about church of Christ always wanting to be right, to win, was funny in a sad sort of way.   :doh:

Kevin[/quote]
There is an adage old timers in the Church of Christ say:
"You can bring down a Church of Christer, but it takes another Church of Christer to do it." ;)

I must confess you are being very gentlemanly in this discussion Kevin, and not letting emotion get in the way of critical thinking.  Not to bad for a "Christian Church brother" who uses those evil instruments in worship. :p

Folks, don't go tell Barry Davis I said that or he'll get the big head! :0  :p He knows I am just kidding!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Dec. 21 2002,01:40)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]:p My opinion is that faith is where the rubber meets the road.The bible is clear that we believe by faith.We are christians because we choose to believe and atheist choose not to believe.No need to prove either side.

However,we come to these forums for encouragement to our faith,that's what church is all about.I don't believe that atheism and Christianity  belong together on a forum.Kindness,good manners,and love can prevail on both sides and that's good,but belief and unbelief are not compatable.

When we have some who pledge allegiance to the bible and some who deny Gen1:1,there is no room for compatability.

Just my thoughts on a very early morning.God bless,Charles[/quote]
I was wondering where you have been old friend.