Christian Forums

Quote from: Just As I Am on Sat Nov 25, 2006 - 21:15:26Perhaps Satan, devious spirit that he is, was trying to find the burial ground of Moses and turn it into a shrine in an attempt to get men to worship Moses instead of God.

This is actually a theory that I saw when reading some of the commentaries.  It may have some basis in The Assumption of Moses.  But, if Moses had a burial place, even a traditional one, there might have been a tendency for people to worship him instead of God.  But, this was kept concealed, according to the passage in Deuteronomy... perhaps for that reason, some argue.

Regardless of the specifics, Jude is making a point that we mustn't miss.  His point was that Michael did not cast judgment on the devil.  That was God's job.  Perhaps, there is a lesson in that for us.

I've always considered this a bit of a check and balance to where some folks tend to go with "Resist the devil and he will flee from you."  We can build up a haughty pride in resisting the devil...and therein we fall into his evil snare.  The only reason we can resist is by the grace, power and presence of Jesus and His Spirit.  The devil doesn't run because he's scared of us, but because he's scared of Who supports us.  This passage reminds me to "know my place" and stay humble, even while resisting Satan.

Jmg3rd,
I tend to agree .....

This verse seems to reflect Zechariah3:1-7...Where the angel of the Lord was present by Joshua(the high priest)and satan was standing there to accuse him(Joshua had on filthy clothes and the angel said take off his filthy clothes and when they did,the statement was made that his sins were taken away)..and the angel told satan that the Lord would rebuke him...Could it be that each of us has evil to judge us if we do not let the cross cover our sins...only the Lord can rebuke evil from us(remove our filty rags)...Will satan claim our souls if we fail to accept Jesus as Lord? I'm still trying to find Jude's reason for this verse...

God bless,Peck

DCR stated:

QuoteRegardless of the specifics, Jude is making a point that we mustn't miss.  His point was that Michael did not cast judgment on the devil.  That was God's job.  Perhaps, there is a lesson in that for us.

Good thought. 

Quote from: peck on Sun Nov 26, 2006 - 02:55:16Just some thoughts from a long time ago when I did an extensive study on the Spirit world..Just perception from different scriptures in the old and new testaments and only what the bible means to me...

Then, you probably have some good insight on some of these things.  I'm sure I've barely scratched the surface.  As with a lot of things, the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

DCR,
You are blessed with a theologian mind and know how to handle it..I'm old and am just an amateur..It's just that finding new treasure in the field of Jude is exciting and you are an excellent facilitator...

This little book has characters that are mysterious...ungodly people...a holy angel..the devil...Moses...and Jude himself...

Our imagination can carry us back to Jesus's youth when he taught in the temple and then went home to play with Jude and James...When Jude speaks,he may have information that as a kid,he asked his brother about and we can read Jude's book and see if he displays any of that revelation....

Thank you for your time and interest in facilitating this book...You are good at what you do...I'm learning

God bless,Peck

Quote from: peck on Mon Nov 27, 2006 - 02:26:24When Jude speaks,he may have information that as a kid,he asked his brother about and we can read Jude's book and see if he displays any of that revelation....

Now, that is an interesting thought.  Can you imagine having the privilege of being with, growing up with, talking with, and asking questions of Jesus Himself, in person? 

I like your ponderings, peck.

There have been many thought provoking comments on this verse and I'm encouraged to see a study discussion thread continue on topic and in a positive manner. Thanks to everyone and your interest in study! 

Jude 9

QuoteYet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

My thought is that this is a remarkable verse and has a great lesson for us. Michael the archangel is challenged by the devil over the body of Moses. Michael the archangel does not fall into the devils trap and engage in further confrontation with the devil rather Michael leaves the matter in the hands of the Lord saying, "The Lord rebuke you!

Marc,

  "excellent"

As good as I have ever heard it explained...Isn't it exciting to search the puzzle's of the scriptures concerning the Spirit world...My thoughts came to a conclusion years ago that Jude made it more clearer to us why God did not send his mighty angels to earth to conquer satan...Satan was created so powerful by God that even angels cannot rebuke him...So...He sent his son...Is that not "love"...

God bless,Peck

Great thoughts, S&L and peck.  Manna to you both.

next verse...

QuoteJude 1:10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

This could be a reference to all the theorizing and doctrine that these men were creating regarding the heavenly beings.  They reviled the things they did not understand.  I believe this also happens today when we see people get into the occult and mysticism.  There is another realm of existence apart from what we see, hear, and feel on this earth.  God is apparently displeased when we take it on ourselves to try to access that realm or theorize about that realm.  Perhaps, that's why we have statements in Scripture against contacting the dead, etc.  The supernatural has a certain allure.  But, these are things that are not really understood by those dabbling it them, according to Jude.  Defaming heavenly beings, without really understanding them, may even be a form of blasphemy.

But, one question I have is... what does Jude mean there at the end about their being destroyed by the things they know by instinct?

Wow DCR,
Jude is getting real juicy bringing up the animal instinct in us humans(sinful nature)...What went on with these ungodly people were basic evil sexual events that Peter mentioned in 2Pet2:12-16...in broad daylight...and feasting with the saints...They were characters acting in unholy behaviour yet mixing with the body of Christ....

I wish Jude had been more specific about their deeds so that we could more clearly understand but he talked in a manner that kept the actual events in a more reserved way..Just letting our imagination see their evil deeds....Jude seems to go into his main reason for his book one step at a time..So far,he has brought out the evil surrounding the church and placed those who do evil in a setting that involved supernatural beings and now we may have him ready to show us that our sinful nature must be replaced with a spiritual nature or we will suffer the consequences...

Jude has written a puzzle and we have to place a piece at a time to get the message...but we are not there yet...a few more pieces are in order...

Good job DCR..Your comments on this is quite admirable...

Just more ponderings......It's an exciting book when we mix our imagination to it....

God bless,Peck

Thanks for the comments, peck.

Note:  I've changed the title of the thread to use the phrase from verse 3 as a theme for the study.

A question comes to mind reading the last few comments...

Is is safe to assume that the same type of men, not just weak, but purposefully destructive men, are to this day finding their way into leadership and teaching positions in the church?  If so, and I think we'd all answer that in the affirmative, then are we prepared to be alert to such?  Can we/do we/have we put up with such because we don't want to "pick a splinter", only to allow such people to work their destruction?  How do we know when a person is just weak and struggling, and when they are one of these type fellows who've no true intent to lead to, but rather away from, Christ?

Jmg3rd,

That's why I wish Jude had went into detail on the works of the sinful nature described.....Some may get the message that they were just false teachers
teaching error and we should contend for the faith to preserve doctrine ....My thoughts are that the faith to contend with in this book is the faith of a saviour who commands us to die to sin...not a Lord who is wishy washy about the faith that Jesus died for....That we could continue in sin that grace may abound...

Of course,these are only perceptions and may be entirely wrong....

God bless,Peck

Quote from: jmg3rd on Fri Dec 01, 2006 - 13:53:30
A question comes to mind reading the last few comments...

Is is safe to assume that the same type of men, not just weak, but purposefully destructive men, are to this day finding their way into leadership and teaching positions in the church?  If so, and I think we'd all answer that in the affirmative, then are we prepared to be alert to such?  Can we/do we/have we put up with such because we don't want to "pick a splinter", only to allow such people to work their destruction?  How do we know when a person is just weak and struggling, and when they are one of these type fellows who've no true intent to lead to, but rather away from, Christ?

Jmg3rd,

Consider verses 4 & 8 carefully. I believe that these verses provide key information concerning the type of men to be watchful of. These men are apostates not simply weak or unaware.

Apostasy: A total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc. 
source - dictionary.com

• Apostasy is not due to ignorance; it is a heresy. Apostasy is
  deliberate error. It is intentional departure from the faith. An apostate is
  one who knows the truths of the gospel and the doctrines of the faith,
  but has repudiated them.

After the church has been penetrated by apostates (men who turned away from truth) it is soon overrun by followers of man and tradition rather than Disciples of Christ.

Peck,

QuoteMy thoughts came to a conclusion years ago that Jude made it more clearer to us why God did not send his mighty angels to earth to conquer satan...Satan was created so powerful by God that even angels cannot rebuke him...So...He sent his son...Is that not "love"... 

I agree with you on this.  I don't remember the exact location but isn't Satan referred to as God of the Earth or something similar?

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Fri Dec 01, 2006 - 17:28:54
Peck,

QuoteMy thoughts came to a conclusion years ago that Jude made it more clearer to us why God did not send his mighty angels to earth to conquer satan...Satan was created so powerful by God that even angels cannot rebuke him...So...He sent his son...Is that not "love"... 

I agree with you on this.  I don't remember the exact location but isn't Satan referred to as God of the Earth or something similar?

2 Corinthians 4:4 ("god of this world") is the passage you're thinking of, I believe.

2 Corinthians 4
³And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, ⁴in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 Good thoughts going on here....My concern is that we may use "contending for the faith" as a phrase to proclaim some in the body of Christ as false teachers because their doctrine differs...Because their understanding of baptism varies or their adding to the authority by using IM or praise teams or clapping and so on....

My thoughts is that Jude is in no way speaking of corporate worship gone wrong....but the faith about sin..Not having the Spirit of God in them but living with an animal instinct...but I am receptive to a different view...

Hey DCR..look how many hits you've received on this little book..Jude says some very kind and loving words to these people he is admonishing..It really is a book of love for their souls..

God bless,Peck 

Peck,

I agree, Jude is not speaking of corporate worship gone wrong, not about baptism or IM. Jude is warning of immorality; verses 7 & 8 establish the sin and those that sanction it.

Jude 7-8     

Quote7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Isaiah 5: 20 may help add clarity to; those to be on guard for.

Isa 5: 20

QuoteWoe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I believe contend for the faith could also be understood as; pursue the righteousness of God.

God Bless,
Marc

Marc,
Your insight is encouraging and enlightening...Jude has an humble heart(witnessed by verse1..verse2...verse26..)..He cares for the body of Christ..I wish more ancient writings were by him...

Looking forward to more facilitating by DCR...With over a thousand hits on this thread,it seems we are not the only ones that appreciate Jude ...Too me,it reaches the heart of Christianity...I wish I could live up to it's principals totally... but it does give us a standard to strive for...Jude encourages those of us who may be weak in verse 2..."to those who have been called,who are loved by God the Father and KEPT by Jesus Christ...".....Thank God for grace as we struggle like these Christians that Jude is writing too...

God bless,Peck

Quote from: jmg3rd on Fri Dec 01, 2006 - 13:53:30Is is safe to assume that the same type of men, not just weak, but purposefully destructive men, are to this day finding their way into leadership and teaching positions in the church?

But, how often are these men really purposefully destructive?  I imagine there might be someone somewhere who deliberately plots to bring down churches and/or lead them astray.  Hopefully, that's a rare thing though.  But, how do we judge when someone is being purposefully destructive?  It seems to me that, more often than not, these types of men you refer to may be themselves deceived or at least have a misplaced focus or misguided priorities (and are, therefore, what you might call "weak").  I think motives have to be considered... which brings up the question of how we determine what the motives are of such men in leadership.  Also, how do we address "weak" (but not necessarily "purposefully destructive") men who have made it into leadership?  That may be even harder in some ways.

Quote from: peck on Sat Dec 02, 2006 - 06:26:14
Good thoughts going on here....My concern is that we may use "contending for the faith" as a phrase to proclaim some in the body of Christ as false teachers because their doctrine differs...Because their understanding of baptism varies or their adding to the authority by using IM or praise teams or clapping and so on....

Agreed.  Jude seems to be discussing some things far more sinister than just differences in opinion on disputable matters.

DCR asks:

QuoteBut, how often are these men really purposefully destructive?

This is an unknown, but look at any and all cults. Cults start with truth and then pervert that truth. There are several cults of Christianity alive, well and probably within walking distance of our homes. Things to look for in this arena are:

• Denial of the virgin birth.
• Denial of the bodily resurrection of Christ.
• Denial of Christ's deity. Examples would be, Jesus was just; a prophet, just man that became God, an angel, or that man can become equal with God.
• Denial that only Jesus grants Salvation. There is more than one way to heaven.
• Phrases or beliefs that theirs is the "One True Church

Webster on faith.

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

Contend earnestly for what Jesus has said is true. I believe God and assume every man could be a liar including me. The worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves, even worse we start to believe them.

The Bible's teaching is all things toward Christ. If it is not of, for, or by Jesus Christ then listener beware.

FTL

next verse...

QuoteJude 1:11
Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Here we have some more Old Testament references.  I was going to post something earlier this morning on the entirety of this verse about Cain, Balaam, and Korah.  But, after typing out my thoughts on Cain and then reading up on Balaam, I realized that there is more there that I need to ponder first.  So, here are just a few thoughts on Cain to keep the thread moving...

I'm sure most are familiar with the story of Cain, who offered a sacrifice that God was not pleased with, and he was jealous of his brother Abel, since God was pleased with Abel's sacrifice.  So, Cain murdered his brother Abel.  There's a debate on why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and rejected Cain's.  Some feel it was the sacrifice itself... because Abel's was a sacrifice of blood, and Cain's wasn't.  Others feel that it was more about what Cain's attitude was going into it that God should reject the sacrifice.  Perhaps, there was some existing animosity which Cain felt toward Abel.  Still others believe that Cain may not have given his best as a sacrifice.  It may be one of those reasons, or it may be a combination of those reasons. 

Here are some Scriptures which may offer some insight:

Genesis 4
  ³So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.  ⁴Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions.  And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; ⁵but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard.  So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. ⁶Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
⁷"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Matthew 5
²³"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, ²⁴leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

1 John 3
¹¹For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; ¹²not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

Balaam's story can be found in Numbers 22-24.  I have some further reading to do there and will plan on posting some thoughts a little later.

I'm weak on this verse...It seems that the godlessness of Cain was attributed to his lack of faith and his interest in satisfying his animal instincts compared to a heart of faith from Abel(but then again Abel must have had animal instincts also)...but my perception on this is questionable and I wonder why Jude used this verse as an example to these godless people he was referring to....not being there really puts us in a bind to really know what this verse meant to the ears of these people....

God bless,Peck

Yes, this verse was harder to grasp than I thought.  When I went back and read the story of Balaam in Numbers 22-24 in particular, I was somewhat confused about what transpired there, especially in light of the negative light Balaam is cast in the New Testament references.  I was reading some other thoughts online about it though.  More on that later.

DCR,

I agree when I read Numbers 22-24 it is difficult to understand the "error of Balaam.

 I personally am enjoying the depth of perception that is coming from all you folks...Jude is a mixture of humans,supernatural beings,evil,good,mystery..all the right things for an interesting thread...

Marc..You have given good insight on this verse..It sounds logical to me.

My understanding is too weak to further comment on this verse..will wait for the coming verses..Maybe the mysteries will unfold somewhat..or maybe not..

God bless,Peck

Yes, thank you for your thoughts on that, Marc.  The incident of God telling Balaam not to go, then allowing him to go, and then sending the angel of the LORD to oppose him on the way... was what I figured the "error of Balaam" probably referred to. 

The confusing part, to me at least, was:

1) Balaam seemed to come out looking good in the end, since he pretty much served in the role of prophet in chapters 23-24 and blessed Israel instead of cursing them.
2) Numbers 22:22 tells us that God's anger was kindled because Balaam went back with Balak's men... right after God seemingly told him to go (in verse 20).

Perhaps the lesson is that Balaam shouldn't have gone to God again after not being satisfied with God's answer the first time.  And, his motivations may indeed be suspect in light of the fact of what Balak was offering to Balaam to curse Israel.  These are all possibilities, but those aren't all the thoughts on the matter.  I've read some other thoughts in commentary.  But, I probably won't be able to pick up with that until tomorrow at the earliest.

QuoteEarlier in this discussion Gnosticism was briefly discussed. A good understanding of Gnosticism would be beneficial in identifying the type of people that Jude is warning about.   

I agree with that 100%.  In fact, the more I find out about Gnosticism, the more it becomes painfully evident that our 21st Century church is still in the grips of Gnostic influence and most of our members can't see it at all.  I wonder what church members in general would say if every congregation suddenly started studying the Gnostic influence in the the 1st Century church and the truth started coming out on just how much influence it still has?  Would we be willing to change or would we just continue the SOP of the day?  I think I will suggest an indepth study of Jude to my elder friend and see what he thinks of the idea. 

This study has really been a good study!  Lot's of good comments coming out of it and I, for one, am seeing things in Jude I had not seen before.

I wish I could get him on here but I haven't convinced him yet that he needs to join us.

2 Peter has already been brought up as a good side-by-side study with Jude.  Here's what Peter wrote regarding Balaam (in the context of a discussion on probably the same false teachers that Jude discusses):

2 Peter 2
¹⁵Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; ¹⁶but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

So, it appears that Balaam's error had to do with his decision to go to Balak.  There are a couple of other passages in the Old Testament which may shed some additional light on this:

Deuteronomy 23
³"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the LORD, ⁴because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you.
⁵"Nevertheless, the LORD your God was not willing to listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you because the LORD your God loves you.

It would seem from this reference that Balaam went as far as calling upon God to curse Israel... it wasn't just a matter of Balaam asking God for permission to do it, but apparently he may have been asking God to actually do it.  Joshua 24:9-10 seems to support this idea as well.

Perhaps, we should see a tie-in with Jude 1:9, where Michael is said to have withheld judgment against the devil regarding the body of Moses.  Michael refrained from pronouncing a condemnation/curse.  But, in contrast, Balaam was presuming to do just that... until God stopped him and refused to curse Israel as Balaam had requested.

More things to ponder. 

Jude 1:11 also refers to those who perished in the rebellion of Korah.  Korah's story can be read in Numbers 16.  He was from the tribe of Levi and led a group of 250 to challenge Moses' authority while Israel was out in the wilderness.  It is written there that "the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up" and they "went down alive to Sheol" (Numbers 16:31-33).

Good pondering DCR..This mystery is becoming understandable as we search the scriptures...We mostly remember Balaam as the man who had a donkey talk to him...but now the spiritual side has been unfolded...good work..

God bless,Peck