Christian Forums

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:18:48

Quote from: BrianInChrist on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 06:57:19

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 23:48:32

Quote from: BrianInChrist on Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:04:14

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:02:51
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.

Phoebe,

You appeart to be attempting to judge my heart.

Hmmm.... In order for you to say that, you are judging mine. I was making a general statement, "you" being anyone, which could include you, or not.

You seem to be making an excuse for overeating, Brian, trying to justify overeating. I didn't say you overeat, but that you are excusing overeating. That's what I keep seeing in your posts. The 300# was just an example. It could be anything that controls. You know, as you and I have had this discussion before, that I believe that anything that we do that controls us or is more important than God and His desire for us is wrong, it is an idol, and God says we are to have no other god before Him, or, IOW, we are to love Him with everything - our heart, soul, mind, strength. Overeating is only one of those things that can be an idol.
Will one go to hell for overeating? I doubt it, but I'm not God, so I can't say for sure. Grace covers a whole lot of stuff, but that isn't the point. The point should be 'How can I best live my life for God's glory?' Is it done by _________? If it isn't, then we shouldn't do it, whether or not the specific action is mentioned by name as a sin in the Bible. We are to bring glory to God by how we live.

I agree with what you wrote, except that I don't view eating because you are hungry (even if you have eaten enough to avoid starvation) as being controlled by hunger.  I view it as satisfying a real physical need.

Quote2) Because it abuses the temple in which God's Spirit resides. It is flat-out not healthy.

I don't see that in Scripture.

Brian - You seem to be viewing this through a very legalist eye. Gluttony or overeating is not about starvation or even hunger. We truly need very little for complete nutrition and satisfying the hunger. The problem is that of self-indulgence and self-gratification.

No, I'm not viewing it through a legalistic eye.  In fact, I agree that the problem is not simply overeating.  I believe it is related to pride in some way.

QuoteAs to point 2, any doctor, ANY doctor, will tell you it is not healthy to overeat. There are ways of knowing if one is: BP, glucose, BMI, lung capacity, heart rate. No, all of those over the normal readings are not exclusively connected to overeating, but the majority are.

I don't doubt that it is unhealthy to overeat.  I doubt that it is sinful simply because it is unhealthy.

QuoteOvereating beyond the satisfaction of hunger is self-indulgence.

I would agree with that.

QuoteOvereating to the point of obesity is self-gratification. God needs to be, wants to be, the Satisfier. Why do we fight Him?

This I don't agree with.  Some are obese because they eat until their hunger is satisfied.  I don't believe that is sinful or self-gratification.

Brian - Even if one's body is out-of-whack and sends wrong signals, one still knows by the large body they carry around that they are overeating to obesity, and, therefore, are slowly destroying the Temple in which the Spirit resides. This is a specific medical problem, not the same, and it distracts from the points that I have been making: overeating is self-indulgence, "self" being the operative word; overeating is self-gratification, again, "self" being the operative word, choosing food over God to satisfy the soul. In addition, one who has this medical problem is not just left out there to eat themselves to oblivion. There is help. To indulge in such an illness is suicide, because one is fully aware of the consequences and refuses help. Eating is but one example of this kind of "self"-ness.

I've repeated myself several times. You get the point, and it's turned into arguing, not trying to understand and solve a problem. Bowing out...

Phoebe allow me to ask you this:  is it sinful to indulge in tasty food?

I love pizza.  I love brownies.  I love potato chips.  These foods do not provide vital nutrients in any way;  they're just "fluff" items that make my mouth happy. 

Are you saying we should only eat to live?  Meaning eat only a sparse diet, nothing that would satisfy us on an emotional or "taste" level?

I ask because, if I follow your words to their logical conclusion, that's where I wind up: a Puritanical way of looking at food.

Phoebe,

I'm really trying to better understand what God has to say about gluttony.  I can't find any Scripture that teaches that it is sinful to do things that are unhealthy.  By that standard, those who injure themselves playing sports, those who run in marathons, those who remain in the presence of second hand smoke are all sinning.  It doesn't seem Scriptural to me.

I do respect your desire not to turn it into an argument.

Quote from: kalen on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:42:09
Phoebe allow me to ask you this:  is it sinful to indulge in tasty food?

I love pizza.  I love brownies.  I love potato chips.  These foods do not provide vital nutrients in any way;  they're just "fluff" items that make my mouth happy. 

Are you saying we should only eat to live?  Meaning eat only a sparse diet, nothing that would satisfy us on an emotional or "taste" level?

I ask because, if I follow your words to their logical conclusion, that's where I wind up: a Puritanical way of looking at food.

Pizza has fruits (tomato), dairy (cheese), protein (meat), and if a good flour is used for the crust you get fiber.

It is a GREAT food.  Don't call it fluff, or I will accuse you of throwing away baptism.

Okay, perhaps pizza wasn't the BEST choice (I'm right there with you in defending it).  I guess my point is, there are BETTER food choices than pizza, nutritionally speaking.  If I'm going to be a devout nutritionist and adhere strictly to a diet that is only good for me (no fluff), pizza wouldn't be on my list of things to eat.

I'd be eating only: fresh fruits and veggies (cooked as little as possible and with no additives), farm fresh dairy and eggs (from my own backyard, no chemicals, no hormones) or even no dairy at all (since dairy actually causes health problems like mucus build-up and inhibition of cell regineration), and only fresh baked bread (since bread loses it's vital nutrients after the third day prior to baking).  Fish would be the only meat I could eat, and even then only sparingly (say, twice a week) since cholesterol comes from animal products (another reason to avoid dairy).

People live like this and are very healthy, with very little medical conditions.

But I wonder if it's healthy (or even sinful?) to adopt an ascetic view of food -- cause even that looks to self ("I must take care of myself and live longer) to fulfill some "higher" longing.

Didn't God give us food to enjoy?  Otherwise, why would he make tastebuds?  Are ALL acts of self indulgence sinful? That's what I'm wondering.

Just thinking out loud here because to me, gluttony has less to do with what we (physically) put into our bodies and more to do with our hearts.  We can be gluttons for food, but we can also be gluttons for "health" -- and even money or nice cars.  Gluttony is a sin.... but what exactly is "gluttony"?

Quote from: kalen on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:42:09
Phoebe allow me to ask you this:  is it sinful to indulge in tasty food?

I love pizza.  I love brownies.  I love potato chips.  These foods do not provide vital nutrients in any way;  they're just "fluff" items that make my mouth happy. 

Are you saying we should only eat to live?  Meaning eat only a sparse diet, nothing that would satisfy us on an emotional or "taste" level?

I ask because, if I follow your words to their logical conclusion, that's where I wind up: a Puritanical way of looking at food.

Kalen - I can't answer all your questions because I don't know the answers.

God greated the Garden, and it was good. But that Garden was a whole different diet than the one we  eat from now. Are you familiar with the Garden of Eden diet? Only fresh fruits and vegetables. 

Yes, one can be as obsessive about healthy eating as about unhealthy eating. "Obsessive" is the key. If one is watching what/how much they eat to keep healthy, that alone is not obsessive. When every word that proceeds out of one's mouth is about calories and transfats and working out at the gym, it might be obsessive. It's personal, and requires honest introspection.

Do we allow our children a diet of junk foods, or do we encourage healthy eating habits? Do we expect more from our children than we expect from ourselves? Do we set a good example for them?

I eat chocolate because I LOVE it, and occasionally justify dark chocolate as being "good for me". I prefer milk chocolate. That's self-indulgence. Is it wrong? I don't know. I don't know that Mother Theresa self-indulged. I don't know that Jesus self-indulged. I find those to be good examples in whose footsteps I want to follow. I don't eat a steady diet of chocolate because it isn't good for me. If I did, if I ate chocolate obsessively, knowing it was unhealthy for me, I believe that would indicate that I was finding gratification in a source that was outside of God.

I believe one can obsess about studying Scripture to the point where the study satisfies, not God. Anything in excess, anything that controls, indicates a spiritual hole.

I believe one can participate in Christian forums to excess. What spiritual hole is that filling?

My body is God's Temple. I should never abuse it. Sometimes I do. I am a sinner saved by grace. If I consciously, continually choose to live in that sin, knowing that is not God's desire for my life, I must ask myself some hard questions, and be honest with my answers. I believe we attempt to justify what we know in our hearts to be wrong. And that is not just about food.

Food is not the the issue. It is the example. My relationship with God is the issue. I need to fill myself with so much of God that there is no room for overindulgences. To do that, I have to release "me", my desires, my wants. I have been saying it is a heart issue, but most gloss over that part and go straight o the examples of food.

I believe overindulging in good things and participating in bad things is an indication - a visible fruit - that something may be missing in one's relationship with God.

That's the best I can do. I don't think I can make my points any clearer. Thanks for asking for clarification.

I remember being at a church pot luck and watching an elder really put it away. He was obese. I remember someone saying something jokingly about taking care of God's temple and God's creation. He just laughed and said, "Well, you've got to die of something."

Just on a matter of principle, God created humans and gave us our bodies as gifts. We should not mistreat or destroy God's gift. The body was designed to glorify God and cannot do so if it is unhealthy. As phoebe said, it's not like people who are over weight don't know why. If eating a normal, healthy portion doesn't "fill them up" it's at least partly because their stomachs have been stretched by over eating. Just like an alcoholic who needs more and more to get his/her buzz.

Eating healthy portions takes discipline--no doubt. But that doesn't mean it's not possible and that it should be given pat answers by Christians. We are to do everything within our power to keep our bodies healthy. We are to "honor God with our bodies" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:08:50

Quote from: Nevertheless on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?

Same thing, Never.

That's what I was thinking.

So let's extend that thought.  If gluttony is selfish eating, can one be a glutton without eating a whole lot?  If there is one pie for 15 people and I eat a normal sized piece (1/8 of pie) am I being gluttonous?  If that becomes my normal practice am I then a glutton?

If so, then gluttony is simply a subset of selfishness.  Is it possible to be a glutton without being selfish?

Quote from: Nevertheless on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 12:58:34

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:08:50

Quote from: Nevertheless on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?

Same thing, Never.

That's what I was thinking.

So let's extend that thought.  If gluttony is selfish eating, can one be a glutton without eating a whole lot?  If there is one pie for 15 people and I eat a normal sized piece (1/8 of pie) am I being gluttonous?  If that becomes my normal practice am I then a glutton?

Hmmm... I don't know. Are you?    Has everyone, incl. yourself, had a sufficient meal? Do 15 people want a piece?

I know many women who will not serve themselves a portion so that others may eat, among them my grandmothers and mother. It was courtesy, yes, but it was also biblical: consider others before yourself.

Quote from: Nevertheless on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 12:58:34
If so, then gluttony is simply a subset of selfishness.  Is it possible to be a glutton without being selfish?

Possible? Maybe, unintentionally. Is ignorance an excuse? Don't know that, either. Like most things, I believe it is a matter of heart and motive and conscience. Once brought to one's attention, it is no longer unintentional, but a conscious decision to be selfish. Sounds like "sin" to me.

If we make it be gossip rather than overeating, we may gossip unintentionally, but when someone brings it to our attention that it IS gossip, we then choose which road to follow: to gossip, or not to gossip. We consider gossip sin, do we not?

********

Maybe this isn't common knowledge, but there are ambulances, life-line helicopters, hospital elevators, beds and other equipment that cannot accomodate the ever-larger and larger bodies that are being brought in because of accidents and poor health. A young woman in her 30's died from a car accident last year because she was too large for the gurney and too large for the ambulance.

I would like to add that I believe if we have young children who are dependent on their parents, we are obligated as caretakers of these little ones who belong to God, to take good care of ourselves so that we can take good care of them. Why would we take on such an awesome rseponsibility if we were not committed to giving them our best?

We are supposed to love our own bodies. Take care of them. Present them as living sacrifices. It's about God, isn't it? Not how much I can eat or drink or smoke (or whatever the vice/idol may be) and get away with it? I guess I just don't get this excuse-making.

Who am I to say we overeat. I guess if folks want to eat themselves into diabetic comas or to heart attacks or strokes, they can have at it. Ultimately, it will be their families who suffer the consequences. (So, no Brian, compulsive overeating is not something one does to oneself. Compulsive overeating hurts others, too. Like the commercials for depression: Who does it hurt? Everyone.)

What about that guy on "Supersize Me"?

Not necessarily eating more in volume, but simply eating McGarbage for 30 days just to see what effect on his vitals. I think about the 3rd week he was not sure if he was going to live to tell.

I think it interesting how McDonald's unloads its trans fats once the media gets hold of its use. Why not before? These fa$t food places are more in tune to the bottom line than if you live a healthy productive life. 

...and another thing,

I see a lot of this 'my body is the temple'. If you refer to the context which this was said in 1 Cor you will find it has to do with sexual immorality, not having good cholesterol, or 6 pak abs.

Quote from: Lamb on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 16:45:55
...and another thing,

I see a lot of this 'my body is the temple'. If you refer to the context which this was said in 1 Cor you will find it has to do with sexual immorality, not having good cholesterol, or 6 pak abs.

I agree.

Quote from: Lamb on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 16:45:55
...and another thing,

I see a lot of this 'my body is the temple'. If you refer to the context which this was said in 1 Cor you will find it has to do with sexual immorality, not having good cholesterol, or 6 pak abs.

Yup.

Quote from: Lamb on Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 16:39:29
I think it interesting how McDonald's unloads its trans fats once the media gets hold of its use. Why not before? These fa$t food places are more in tune to the bottom line than if you live a healthy productive life. 

Where did we get the idea that fast food places are supposed to be making us more healthy?  No one is forcing us to buy what they are selling.  They respond to what their customers want.  People are wanting to think they are eating healthier, so they put salads and fruit cups on the menu.  Nevermind that people are still buying the super sized fries and mega burgers, they could have a salad.

Never forget that it is the duty of a business to make a profit.  If it doesn't, it's gone, and so are the jobs and services it provides.  It is Mc D's job to guard Mc D's bottom line and my job to guard my health.  Let's not confuse the two.

Nevertheless said:

QuoteWhere did we get the idea that fast food places are supposed to be making us more healthy?  No one is forcing us to buy what they are selling.  They respond to what their customers want.  People are wanting to think they are eating healthier, so they put salads and fruit cups on the menu.  Nevermind that people are still buying the super sized fries and mega burgers, they could have a salad.

Never forget that it is the duty of a business to make a profit.  If it doesn't, it's gone, and so are the jobs and services it provides.  It is Mc D's job to guard Mc D's bottom line and my job to guard my health.  Let's not confuse the two.

Good post. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions and not seek a scape goat.

Yep.  Good post, Never.

---------------

To the question about Spurlock on "Supersize Me", I highly recommend this article, which also goes to Never's point:
MSNBC: Woman says 'McDonald's diet' took off weight
Mother ate at restaurant chain for 90 days — and claims she lost 37 pounds

I guess the tobacco company ought be taken off the hook as well. It makes no difference if your product is unhealthy.

Quote from: Lamb on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 08:03:57
I guess the tobacco company ought be taken off the hook as well. It makes no difference if your product is unhealthy.

They should be.  People should know better than to smoke.

Gary, true that, but they got sued. Mainly because they were not honest in their revealing exactly how damaging their product was.

That is my whole point. I believe McDonalds executives knew what trans fats would do long before the public had fair knowledge. I don't believe the people at the top don't know what is in the product and why. just not buying it.

I understand our responsibility, but when a company does not reveal the good, bad, and ugly to the public when it is known then I call unethical business practice.

McDonald;s is of the devil. Pure at simple. Wake up folks!!!!

Quote from: Lamb on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 08:15:58
Gary, true that, but they got sued. Mainly because they were not honest in their revealing exactly how damaging their product was.

That is my whole point. I believe McDonalds executives knew what trans fats would do long before the public had fair knowledge. I don't believe the people at the top don't know what is in the product and why. just not buying it.

I understand our responsibility, but when a company does not reveal the good, bad, and ugly to the public when it is known then I call unethical business practice.

McDonald;s is of the devil. Pure at simple. Wake up folks!!!!

Sometimes the devil makes some good tasting food.

GARY!!!

DON'T EVEN! OPEN YOUR EYES BROTHER!

HAVE YOPU NOT SEEN THAT PURPLE BLOB (GRIMMACE)...PURPLE, LIKE THAT TELLY TUBBY THAT WAS PURPLE AND GAY? CAN'T YOU SEE THE OBVIOUS? GRIMMACE IS A BIG FAT PERVERT.

THEN YOU HAVE THE HAM BURGLERER. HA HA REAL CUTE TEACHING KIDS TO STEAL, HUH?

...AND A CLOWN,I.E. 'BUFOON' JUST TO TRICK KIDS INTO THINKING BEING GAY AND STEALING IS A BIG JOKE, YEAH, HA HA HA!

I'm going to go lay down. You people got me all worked up.

Quote from: Lamb on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 08:27:53
GARY!!!

DON'T EVEN! OPEN YOUR EYES BROTHER!

HAVE YOPU NOT SEEN THAT PURPLE BLOB (GRIMMACE)...PURPLE, LIKE THAT TELLY TUBBY THAT WAS PURPLE AND GAY? CAN'T YOU SEE THE OBVIOUS? GRIMMACE IS A BIG FAT PERVERT.

THEN YOU HAVE THE HAM BURGLERER. HA HA REAL CUTE TEACHING KIDS TO STEAL, HUH?

...AND A CLOWN,I.E. 'BUFOON' JUST TO TRICK KIDS INTO THINKING BEING GAY AND STEALING IS A BIG JOKE, YEAH, HA HA HA!

I'm going to go lay down. You people got me all worked up.

I stopped most of my fast food eating, even while at work.  Primarily because of cost.  Trying to do the budget thing.

And my gastro system is thanking me.