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Pretend with me that :

                     (1) all of us here at GCM have met the risen saviour before Pentecost.
That He has actually met us in our daily lives somewhere, spoken with us, and that we have as a result become his disciples, followers of him.  (In other words we are all alive during the 50 days on earth prior to Pentecost).

                    (2) Now we are all speaking together on this forum about our experiences with a dead man that we believe has arisen from death, in fact one whom we have decided to follow, believing Him to be the Messiah.  And we are gentiles, remember.

           Now, here are two questions:

                   (1) did Christ tell us the gospel message and would we be glorifying God here on GCM for what we had seen and heard and what it did for us?  In other words, did we believe the gospel message......Or was his message only a "sort-of" message, that is, would our Saviour have told us to wait until Pentecost to get the modified, real gospel?  (Remember, we are gentiles)

                  (2)  If one of my relatives, who had been with me when we spoke with Christ and decided to follow him, died this morning (which would be before Pentecost), and I started a thread here on GCM pleading with you all to tell me if my relative were saved, what would you tell me?

Don


P.S.  THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A BAPTISM THREAD(I ask this thread be cut if it even starts to disintegrate into an argument on water baptism).  I am trying to discuss two issues here:
                (1) what the gospel was and is........has it been the same since the beginning of time, in prophecy, up to today, and beyond today.  Is the gospel the same yesterday, today, and forever, in other words? Or was it modified at different points, "upgraded" to a new version, like a Microsoft Operating System?
               ( 2)  what is a disciple?  If a disciple is a follower of someone and one made his decision to follow Jesus before Jesus' death, or immediately after Jesus' resurrection, are any of these disciples deficient in something that would condemn them if they died just immediately before Pentecost?
                   

Wow, Don, Can you believe it?!?!?!   I gotta admit, I really didn't know what Jesus meant exactly when He was telling us about going away and coming back in 3 days.  This is just wild!!!  I think I'm starting to get it now.  He's really not going to reign here like a "king" like I thought but isn't He amazing.  I can't believe the pain and agony He went through because He loves me and you that much.  This is absolutly unbelievable.  I can't wait to tell EVERYONE I know and EVERYONE I will meet what an amazing Saviour we have.  I'll sure treasure my time being with Him.  Watching Him with kids, with the unloveable, with me.  He was so real and so kind.  I know there is no way I'll ever measure up to that but I want to spend the rest of my life imitating Him to the best of my human ability and telling the world, Oh What a Saviour!!!!!!!!   

Excellent thread! I will have to mull this over a bit before I respond. But thanks!

Sorry but I can not join in in teaching the things of what it meant to follow Christ with out mentioning the un-mentenionable you place as a rule. It was what Christ taught before and and after Pentecost. If I am to tell the true story I must as Christ teach it also.

Quote from: bvaug on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 10:31:03
Sorry but I can not join in in teaching the things of what it meant to follow Christ with out mentioning the un-mentenionable you place as a rule. It was what Christ taught before and and after Pentecost. If I am to tell the true story I must as Christ teach it also.

Wish I had the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Don

I don't think that the Gospel was any different before Pentecost from after Pentecost.  So, I guess I don't fully understand the issue being raised.  I believe certain things became more revealed after Jesus' Resurrection by Jesus Himself and perhaps even by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, through the Apostles.  Jesus spoke some things and made manifest some things to His disciples right before He ascended before Pentecost.

A new version of the Gospel?  Not at all.  A more fully revealed Gospel as time went on?  That seems to be the case.

That is simle to figure out. Go back and read your opening post and see what you asked to not be talked about and the go back to the Gospels and Acts and see just What Christ and his messengers were talking about.

For the record I agree with DCR on his point 100%.

QuoteI don't think that the Gospel was any different before Pentecost from after Pentecost.  So, I guess I don't fully understand the issue being raised.  I believe certain things became more revealed after Jesus' Resurrection by Jesus Himself and perhaps even by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, through the Apostles.  Jesus spoke some things and made manifest some things to His disciples right before He ascended before Pentecost.

I agree DCR...the reason I raise the issue here is because some here believe the nature of the gospel was truly changed at Pentecost.  And yes, I believe the gospel is revealed to all of us more and more and more as we grow, on many different levels.  What do you say to me about my relative who just died, by the way?

Don

I would say that your relative is in God's hands and that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to his/her salvation.  That's sovereignly in God's court.  Based on what little you said about it, I would "assume" that he/she is probably saved.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable going beyond that.

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:22:26
I would say that your relative is in God's hands and that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to his/her salvation.  That's sovereignly in God's court.  Based on what little you said about it, I would "assume" that he/she is probably saved.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable going beyond that.

What more could I have told you on this forum if there is doubt about my relative....Please tell me, she just died and I'm really worried, for we talked with the risen Saviour.  What you have said does not give me a whole lot of assurance.

Don

Quote from: da525382 on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:28:31

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:22:26
I would say that your relative is in God's hands and that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to his/her salvation.  That's sovereignly in God's court.  Based on what little you said about it, I would "assume" that he/she is probably saved.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable going beyond that.

What more could I have told you on this forum if there is doubt about my relative....Please tell me, she just died and I'm really worried, for we talked with the risen Saviour.  What you have said does not give me a whole lot of assurance.

Don

I am not able to give assurance.  Only Jesus can. 

So, why would you be really worried?

I know I'm probably an idiot and not really getting what you are asking for but I do want to say this.  I enjoyed my little pretending exercise whether it was what I was suppose to do or not and the reason I enjoyed it is it really hit home to me what is really important.  I could really see myself with Jesus and I think the reason I was able to do that is because today I do have a relationship with Him.  Almost as if I was with Him in the flesh and yes I do believe the message is the same then as it was today.   I also think man was the same then as they are today.  They didn't get it.  They wanted it to be different.  They want it to be something that makes THEM important, instead of Him, so they add all this stuff that makes it look like they've done something and that clearly goes against what Jesus was all about IMO.  He is our Saviour.  He doesn't need our help.  Out of response to His love, grace, and mercy, I will gladly serve.

As far as the dead relative, from what you've said, Jesus death saved him just like it saves me.   

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:41:17

Quote from: da525382 on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:28:31

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:22:26
I would say that your relative is in God's hands and that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to his/her salvation.  That's sovereignly in God's court.  Based on what little you said about it, I would "assume" that he/she is probably saved.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable going beyond that.

What more could I have told you on this forum if there is doubt about my relative....Please tell me, she just died and I'm really worried, for we talked with the risen Saviour.  What you have said does not give me a whole lot of assurance.

Don

I am not able to give assurance.  Only Jesus can. 

So, why would you be really worried?

That is very comforting to me, now........for He told us that He was the one, spoken of through time, who was sent to give us life forever, and we were so excited we bowed down before him and told him we would follow him and him alone, because everyone around here has seen Him and we all heard he was crucified, but we are not Jewish, we have only lived in this area for many generations.  To see Him alive, there are no words to describe it.  Rumor has it that there is to be some kind of meeting in Jerusalem, that his immediate group of Jewish disciples that we used to see following him around are waiting for additional power from Him soon.  I don't know really what that means, so I wanted to feel that my relative died having eternal life, and now I think I am feeling that way more and more.

Don

Quote from: Serenity432001 on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:55:28
As far as the dead relative, from what you've said, Jesus death saved him just like it saves me.  

Thank you so much, Serenity, I will now go tell all my other relatives to rejoice in the salvation of our loved one who just died.  One thing she has over the rest of my relatives is that she actually spoke with him after he came back to life, just before she died.  Thank you again for this assurance.

Don

Just my humble opinion......I think Serenity is the only one here that has the slightest idea of what Don was asking in the initial post. It wasn't anywhere close to a slam on Baptism.

I am the beginning and the end, He that was, is, and will be, the coming King Of Kings.

Eph 1:10  He planned to bring all of history to its goal in Christ. Then Christ would be the head of everything in heaven and on earth.

God's ultimate plan, All things in Christ.

I am free of the law of sin and death.

I am free from the curse of the law.

Love and faith reign supreme.

For starters.

FTL

Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died came back to life.

That relative may just be knocking on your door.

Edited for my own lack of paying attention, sorry.

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:41:17

Quote from: da525382 on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:28:31

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:22:26
I would say that your relative is in God's hands and that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to his/her salvation.  That's sovereignly in God's court.  Based on what little you said about it, I would "assume" that he/she is probably saved.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable going beyond that.

What more could I have told you on this forum if there is doubt about my relative....Please tell me, she just died and I'm really worried, for we talked with the risen Saviour.  What you have said does not give me a whole lot of assurance.

Don

I am not able to give assurance.  Only Jesus can. 

So, why would you be really worried?

DCR, could you give assurance in any other situation? If so, what?

Quote from: James Rondon on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 13:49:18

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:41:17

Quote from: da525382 on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:28:31

Quote from: DCR on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 11:22:26
I would say that your relative is in God's hands and that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to his/her salvation.  That's sovereignly in God's court.  Based on what little you said about it, I would "assume" that he/she is probably saved.  But, I wouldn't be comfortable going beyond that.

What more could I have told you on this forum if there is doubt about my relative....Please tell me, she just died and I'm really worried, for we talked with the risen Saviour.  What you have said does not give me a whole lot of assurance.

Don

I am not able to give assurance.  Only Jesus can. 

So, why would you be really worried?

DCR, could you give assurance in any other situation? If so, what?

To do so would be to put myself in God's place.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.

I don't bind my own refusal to speak to the salvation of others on anyone else.  It's a matter of what I'm personally comfortable with.

So, your refusal has to do with everyone, and not just this particular hypothetical case... Correct?

For the sake of anyone's continuing interest, I still have heard no comment on the first question I posed at the beginning of this thread.....thought I'd ask one more time and if no interest, I'll just hang it up.   Here it is:  (it might help to reread my first post on the thread):

(1) did Christ tell us the gospel message and would we be glorifying God here on GCM for what we had seen and heard and what it did for us?  In other words, did we believe the gospel message......Or was his message only a "sort-of" message, that is, would our Saviour have told us to wait until Pentecost to get the modified, real gospel?  (Remember, we are gentiles)

Don

Quote from: da525382 on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 18:21:43
For the sake of anyone's continuing interest, I still have heard no comment on the first question I posed at the beginning of this thread.....thought I'd ask one more time and if no interest, I'll just hang it up.   Here it is:  (it might help to reread my first post on the thread):

(1) did Christ tell us the gospel message and would we be glorifying God here on GCM for what we had seen and heard and what it did for us?  In other words, did we believe the gospel message......Or was his message only a "sort-of" message, that is, would our Saviour have told us to wait until Pentecost to get the modified, real gospel?  (Remember, we are gentiles)

Don

Yes He did tell us.  He told us He was the Son of God, The Saviour.  He told us He was going to die but would rise again.   I do think I'd be glorifying God here for what I had seen and heard and what it did for me.  I do believe the gospel message and no He did not tell us to wait to get a modified real gospel for He is the real gospel or the real good news so maybe this modified gospel folks got later ain't the real one after all.

Quote from: James Rondon on Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 14:12:44
So, your refusal has to do with everyone, and not just this particular hypothetical case... Correct?

Only God knows the heart.  I, myself, cannot give assurance to anyone.  But, what I can and should do is show others someone who can... Jesus Christ.

Thanks for answering, DCR. The only reason that I asked, is because I have known others who have said something similar regarding certain individuals, in certain situations, but then have done the opposite with other individuals, in other situations.

Don, great intro post!

I believe that Jesus has remained the same.

What He spoke in person still stands, not changed a bit at Pentecost, or even after.

Blessings, Memmy