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What comes from baptism that saves us?  Is it the getting wet or the removal of guilt from the conscience?
1 Peter 3:21 reads:
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

If the parenthesis were not there it would read: The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So it appears as if the writer were anticipating the question:  what comes from baptism that saves us?  Is it the getting wet or the effect upon the conscience?  (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

Quote from: churchmember on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 11:04:48
What comes from baptism that saves us?  Is it the getting wet or the removal of guilt from the conscience?

Water baptism certainly gets people wet.  But the purpose, Churchmember, is not to take a bath nor to remove guilt from the conscience.  But rather it's the answer of a good conscience. 

Having a good conscience, that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.   I Pet. 3:15

You found a verse that says the words good conscience but you didn't prove your point with it.  In fact, that verse has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.  When does the participant obtain a good conscience. 

Paul says it when we are baptized. He concurs with 1 Peter 3:21

We don't receive the blessings until we have been baptized for a specific purpose. 
Act 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I thought 1 Peter 3:21 called baptism the answer of a good conscience.  Have I forgotten what it says? 

If it's the answer of a good conscience, then....

the good conscience comes first.  Otherwise, it's a bad translation.

So you have a dichotomy.  First, the verse says baptism saves us.  Second, the verse says a good conscience comes before baptism.

You can explain this any way you want.  To me, it says I don't understand all I think I do.  Maybe we're trying to get something out of this other than what Peter was talking about.

What (and, not being a good lawyer, I'm asking a question I don't immediately recall the answer to) was Peter's larger point in this section of his book?

(two quick points:  not to offend, but I see no reason not to think this is talking about water baptism.  second, I've asked the translation before and have received conflicting answers.  Most translations agree with the KJV, though, and put the clear (or good) conscience first.)

btw, the one version I've read that reverses the order is the NASB, which says something along the lines of "an appeal to God for a good conscience".  I haven't read another version, including the ASV, that does this, though.

Quote from: churchmember on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 16:36:20
You found a verse that says the words good conscience but you didn't prove your point with it.  In fact, that verse has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

Actually, that verse has everything to do with the verse you are discussing. In fact, I suggest you read the whole letter of 1st Peter, and don't stop and start at chapter 3 verses 20 and 21 (without context, a prooftext is only a pretext).

Quote from: churchmember on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 16:36:20When does the participant obtain a good conscience.

See Marc's post, reply #3, regarding the "answer of a good conscience".

'scuse me for posting three times in a row (well, it's not really three posts in a row because James posted while I was cutting and pasting), but I'm just trying to work through this.  Here's the context (NIV):

Quote13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. 11If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

This is just a thought, but perhaps the reason we come up with what seem like contridictory ideas to us when we read this verse is that how baptism is connected to salvation isn't Peter's main point?  Perhaps taking the verse and reading it by itself obscures the fact that this is an illustration of a larger concept? That the whole point involves Jesus' suffering and our suffering, not the exact point of salvation?

Just a thought.

That has been my contention for quite some time with the passage in 1st Peter. In fact, there is a thread from a few months back that I am looking to revive very soon that discusses this very aspect of it...

The word "save" can mean to be "kept safe," as Noah was kept safe in the ark.  The context of the passage is Christians coming under persecution.

In some Muslim countries, for example, Christians are not persecuted until they are water baptized.  Why? Because they are testifying in the open when they step forward to get water baptized.

There are various translations, but the best one, I believe, is that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience toward God."  There is empowering and grace that comes as one steps forward and is publicly baptized.  Those in some parts of the world need it!  Peter recognized this.  The outward testimony keeps our testimony for Christ safe.  That's what Peter was saying. 

Quote from: SammySmile on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 18:16:58


... they are testifying in the open when they step forward to get water baptized.

...There is empowering and grace that comes as one steps forward and is publicly baptized.  Those in some parts of the world need it!  Peter recognized this. 

I would certainly count myself among those who need empowering and grace. I think even those in the Bible belt might need it!

(as to the keeps safe...I don't know.  I don't speak Greek, but I would assume that if that were what it meant then someone, somewhere would have translated it that way.)

We are baptized for two reasons the first because we have been instructed to and we want a clear conscience through obedience.  The second reason is it is a testimony that we have been emersed in the Gospel.  The writer of Hebrews speaking of the children said, "They were all baptized by Moses in the cloud and in the sea.  Of course they weren't physically baptised but they were emersed in the understanding of God that came through their deliverance from Egypt and the care that God provided for them. Baptism only has saving power in obedience."  If Adam and Eve had understood all the reasons for not eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they might not have been seduced by Satan.  God always has our best in mind but we must learn obedience.  If you will remember when Jesus told the crowd you must eat of my flesh and drink of my blood they thought, YUCK! and left.  They did not understand.  The disciples did not understand either but when Jesus ask them would they turn away too.  They said where shall we go you have the words of eternal life.  For God to take the time to manifest his infinite knowledge about baptism or any other subject is wonderful, but in most situations obedience without understanding comes first.   revdcb

Yeah...I'm not sure anyone understands everything there is to understand about baptism at the time they submit.  I know I didn't.  I likely still don't.

I'm sure that I don't, either. That used to bother me, in my former mindset, so much so that I was "re-baptized" after I came to "know more"... "just in case". I'm not really concerned about my baptism anymore, and knowing all of the ins and outs about it. I would much rather focus on my Lord, and knowing Him.

Greek scholars have had some difficulty in properly translating the phrase "the pledge of a good conscience toward God" (NIV).  There seems to be some ambiguity in the Greek construction of the phrase.  This is what Allen Black states in the College Press NIV Commentary on 1 Peter:

"This is another difficult clause.  The NRSV provides the main alternative: 'but as an appeal to God for a good conscience.'  The main questions are whether the first of the two key words (eperotema) should be translated 'pledge' or 'appeal' and how the word 'conscience' relates to 'pledge' or 'appeal.'  Grammatically 'a good conscience' may be the object or the subject of the verbal idea contained in either 'pledge' or 'appeal.'  France and Achtemeier provide detailed discussions of the complex issues involved.  I am mildly inclined to agree with them that Peter intends to say baptism involves pledging a good conscience to God; that is, in baptism one makes a pledge to God to maintain a good conscience, to live a life of service to God.  This understanding fits well with the overall thrust of the letter."

As I understand Dr. Black's explanation, the different translations of this phrase are not due to scholars trying to impose their beliefs on the text.  It's simply that the Greek is difficult to translate in this phrase.  Perhaps that was intentional.  Perhaps Peter wanted us to appeal to God for a good conscience as we are being baptized, while pledging to have a good conscience as we start our following of Jesus in baptism.  When something can be legitimately translated in more than one way, I try to see if the different ways can be coherently reconciled.  I hope that this is coherent.

Here is an interesting commentary by Rev. Eric H. H. Chang:


1. Baptism: A Pledge To God From A Good Conscience
Let, us look at 1 Pet. 3:21,22 and I will read from the Revised Standard Version (RSV) although it does not give a good translation of the verse as I will explain in a moment.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, ("this" here refers to the great flood waters in Genesis which Peter has just spoken of in v.20) now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him."

Peter tells us that baptism corresponds to the whole event of the flood, with particular reference of course to the Ark, by which, as Peter says, eight people were saved through the floodwaters. From that whole generation only eight people survived through the Ark, through faith.It is important to understand clearly what is meant here. It says here that baptism is "an appeal to God for a good conscience." This translation is incorrect. If you have the New International Version (NIV) you will have the correct translation and a very good one. The NIV translates that baptism is "the pledge of a good conscience toward God." This is an accurate translation and I will briefly explain why.

Liddell and Scott's Greek English Lexicon gives three meanings for the Greek word "eperotema" which has been translated in the RSV as "appeal". The first meaning of the word is a question; the second, an answer to a question, especially an affirmative answer to a question, hence having the meaning of sanction or approval; the third is equivalent to the Latin "stipulatio" which means, an obligation, a contract, or a commitment, or a pledge. This meaning is also supported by Moulton and Milligan's The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. I cite these references for those of you who are more familiar with the technical aspect and would like to study it more closely.

Now you will notice from this definitive Greek lexicon (i.e. dictionary) that nowhere does it give the meaning of this word as "appeal". A question and an appeal are by no means one and the same thing. They are quite different. An appeal is one thing and a question is quite another thing. In fact, "eperotema" rarely has even the meaning of question. Generally it means a response to a question - a specific response in fact - and from there it went on to have the meaning of agreement, which became further extended to have the meaning of contract, commitment, pledge. For those of you who would like to study the matter technically, you can refer to E.G. Selwyn's standard commentary on 1 Peter which gives a careful discussion of this matter.

Suffice it to say that I can find no linguistic evidence for the meaning given here as "appeal". Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament gives the definition of "eperotema" as appeal but fails to give any evidence as to where in Greek literature this word has this meaning. Usually they give linguistic evidence for a definition and they may cite many examples from Greek literature to substantiate it, but here they fail to give any such evidence. And I simply cannot find any linguistic evidence for such a meaning for the word "eperotema". Now this means that the word "eperotema" is correctly translated in the NIV as "a pledge". Baptism is a pledge. It is a commitment to God. This is very important to understand.

From A Good Conscience
What is more, the genitive in the Greek text is correctly translated as the pledge of a good conscience, not for a good conscience. It is a pledge made from a good conscience. Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. How do we have a good conscience? We have a good conscience when we repent of our sins - when we genuinely, honestly, and sincerely do something with no double-mindedness and no deceitfulness. That is what it means to do something from a good conscience. No fraud, no lies, no untruthfulness - that is a good conscience. You cannot have a good conscience when you are being untruthful, or not wholly truthful. But baptism then is a pledge to God made out of or from a good conscience. When with a genuine heart, with a right attitude, I make my pledge of total commitment to God, that is baptism.

This word "eperotema" is particularly interesting because it expresses a question and a response. You make a pledge (as those who are about to be baptized are going to do) in answer to a question. The response amounts to a commitment, a pledge. When they say "I do", that is a pledge, a commitment, in response to the question posed to them in baptism. This word is particularly suitable because in the Early Church it was their practice before baptism to ask the baptismal candidate certain specific questions which he or she must answer in the affirmative. And we have noticed that "eperotema" is not only an answer, but an answer in the affirmative. This is very important, and hence the choice of this word here begins to be very clear. This answer constitutes a pledge. This is also the reason why, in the Church, baptism was called a sacrament and is still called a sacrament.

The writer makes the distinction that its not the external thing that happens in the act of baptism but the internal thing that happens in the act of baptism. 

It takes a lot of effort to not see that. 

Quote from: churchmember on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 22:10:45
It takes a lot of effort to not see that.

Or maybe, dishonesty? After all, it is "clear", "plain", "obvious", pick your adjective... Right?

I was reading at John Piper's website this morning, when I thought about looking into what he had written about this verse.  After reading the following sermon, I thought that others may like it, too.

What is Baptism and Does it Save?






(modified because the link was making the board too wide to read--this should still work)

Quote from: James Rondon on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 22:13:53

Quote from: churchmember on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 22:10:45
It takes a lot of effort to not see that.

Or maybe, dishonesty? After all, it is "clear", "plain", "obvious", pick your adjective... Right?

"You have to try not to understand it!" is the phrase I hear most often.  This is used as a trump card when discussions get deeper than expected.

There's been some interesting stuff here.  Me, I go back to context.  I think it's best not to pull doctrine on one issue from something that's primarily talking about something else and only mentions said doctrine in passing.  I'd say go back to the passages that primarily talk about this doctrine to gain an understanding of it.  And, of course, there are verses that primarily talk about baptism.

As a Language Arts-type person, I can't emphasize the importance of context when understanding any type of writing enough.

Marc,

How about pulling a command for all time from a history book?  What do you think of that?

We talked about such things in our Wednesday night class this week.  The kids didn't even know that the books that Paul (and a few others) wrote were really letters.  We went over the different types of books in the Bible and I asked them what would happen if you pulled a single line out of a letter or a history book and treated it as if it were a law.

We obviously have many scriptures that show the importance of water baptism.

However, when some give the "you have to believe it is for the remission of sins for your baptism to be saved" doctrine, I believe they are going to far with the text.

The book of Acts is a historical account of the early church, it is not a book of law.

From history, particularly from firsthand accounts, you can gain an understanding of what was done and why it was done.  This makes it a useful tool for understanding, but using it as law can cause misunderstanding instead.  See the way we've used Acts 20's "breaking bread" account.

Quote from: marc on Sun Mar 11, 2007 - 08:30:50
From history, particularly from firsthand accounts, you can gain an understanding of what was done and why it was done.  This makes it a useful tool for understanding, but using it as law can cause misunderstanding instead.  See the way we've used Acts 20's "breaking bread" account.

I was hesitant to bring that up in a baptism thread.

Yeah, but it's the most obvious example.  I've heard people take this and lay it alongside "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" and use the commandment to interpret the example, saying if it means every Sabbath it must mean every Sunday.

Which is an absurd way of reading text.

I believe the Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 "you must believe it is for the remission of sins" to be absurd as well.

marc hit the nail on the head, on the first page of this thread.

Peter is not talking about salvation...he is talking about when we suffer for doing the right thing.  He is encouraging us to keep doing the right thing, for, "it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil." (v 17).  He then goes on to explain that Christ was a good as good can be and He suffered and died for us.  The good of our salvation came out of Christ's suffering, so suffering for doing good is not a bad thing.

Peter then goes on, in chapter 4, "Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.  As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God." (v 1,2)

The idea is suffering as a Christian and continuing to do what is right in God's eyes in spite of the suffering and even ridicule we may suffer.

That is the main point of the passage, not what me must know or believe when we get wet.

Just myt 2¢...

KP

Quote from: marc on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 19:43:24

Quote from: SammySmile on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 18:16:58


... they are testifying in the open when they step forward to get water baptized.

...There is empowering and grace that comes as one steps forward and is publicly baptized.  Those in some parts of the world need it!  Peter recognized this. 

I would certainly count myself among those who need empowering and grace. I think even those in the Bible belt might need it!

(as to the keeps safe...I don't know.  I don't speak Greek, but I would assume that if that were what it meant then someone, somewhere would have translated it that way.)

How does baptism save?  Is Peter saying baptism saves us from our sins? or saving us from something else?

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.  I Tim. 2:15

Is a woman washed of her sins by having children?  or is this verse referencing some other saving?

The word "save" is sesosmai which means deliver, make whole, preserve safe from danger, loss or destruction.  The root word sozo is used in the Gospels 14 times in connection with deliverance from demon possession, 20 times in connection with rescue of physical life from peril, and then 20 times in connection with spiritual salvation.  The basic meaning of the verb is to rescue from peril or to protect or to keep sound. 

I agree that context must be considered to understand the verse.

but in each of these usages, it seems that the meaning is to save, not to keep safe.  The saving is an active thing, not a preserving of what has already happened.  My doubts concerned your suggestion that this means to keep safe.

anyway....

A strange part of this is that baptism is said to save not in the same way as the ark saved Noah and co., but in the same way that the water of the flood saved them--the same water that destroyed everyone else. 

I'm not completely sure what to do with this idea, but I keep coming back to the contextual idea of suffering and of Christ's suffering. 

The contextual meaning of this verse is more interesting than the non-contextual application, I think.

Quote from: marc on Sun Mar 11, 2007 - 10:41:19
but in each of these usages, it seems that the meaning is to save, not to keep safe.  The saving is an active thing, not a preserving of what has already happened.  My doubts concerned your suggestion that this means to keep safe.

anyway....

A strange part of this is that baptism is said to save not in the same way as the ark saved Noah and co., but in the same way that the water of the flood saved them--the same water that destroyed everyone else. 

I'm not completely sure what to do with this idea, but I keep coming back to the contextual idea of suffering and of Christ's suffering. 

The contextual meaning of this verse is more interesting than the non-contextual application, I think.

Well, I think that "being saved" and "being safe" can go hand in hand.  One viable meaning of the term is "to protect."  So Peter could actually be saying, "even baptism protects us."  Protects us from what?  Well, in light of rest of the chapter he could be saying that one's testimony is being protected by water baptism.

And certainly Noah was not saved by the flood, nor did he become a man of God by the flood.  But I think the picture here is just as eight people gave testimony of salvation through the flood, so we give testimony of salvation through water baptism.

 A clear conscience may be from the attack our conscience gets when we hear the cross preached..repentance is attacking our conscience..and Peter says that the resurrection saves us in !Peter3:21...and being baptized cleanses our soul's conscience...but Peter made sure that the righteousness came from the resurrection not our baptism..

In 2Peter1:9...Peter says you are blind..having forgotten that you have been cleansed of your"past sins"..Their conscience had been clear of their past sins but were gathering sins that needed newer cleansing to keep their conscience clear..Even today,we cleanse our conscience through prayer asking for forgiveness...and God says..Don't worry..You have an advocate with the Father to clear your conscience again..

So,it's not just baptism that clears our conscience..It's a life time of holy living.

Just some thoughts

God bless,Peck

Quote from: Gary on Sun Mar 11, 2007 - 08:42:37
I believe the Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 "you must believe it is for the remission of sins" to be absurd as well.

Can a person be baptized by any other authority than Christ's? 
Can a man be baptized by his own authority?  How about President Bush's authority?  Can he be baptized by John Lennon or Allah or Buddha's authority? 

If you say that he must be baptized in the name of or authority of Christ, then we have a problem.  For there are conditions in Acts 2:38:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Both conditions apply or neither condition applies.

Quote from: churchmember on Sun Mar 11, 2007 - 14:38:44

Quote from: Gary on Sun Mar 11, 2007 - 08:42:37
I believe the Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 "you must believe it is for the remission of sins" to be absurd as well.

Can a person be baptized by any other authority than Christ's? 
Can a man be baptized by his own authority?  How about President Bush's authority?  Can he be baptized by John Lennon or Allah or Buddha's authority? 

If you say that he must be baptized in the name of or authority of Christ, then we have a problem.  For there are conditions in Acts 2:38:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Both conditions apply or neither condition applies.

How about this:  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name, whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.  Acts 10:43

So water baptism is for or because of remission of sins that came at the moment of believing on Jesus.

This also is consistent with Paul's theology:  The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach

Quote from: SammySmile on Sat Mar 10, 2007 - 18:16:58
The word "save" can mean to be "kept safe," as Noah was kept safe in the ark.  The context of the passage is Christians coming under persecution.

In some Muslim countries, for example, Christians are not persecuted until they are water baptized.  Why?  

Because they are not yet Christians according to God's Word!

Tommy

You are correct, Tommy.  Acts 2:41, 47 demonstrates that only those that have been baptized 1) In the name of Jesus & 2) For the remission of sins
have been added to the church.