Christian Forums

Quote from: kensington on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 23:00:20
Broach... if what you posted about Purgatory is "sound doctrine" and there is justification for praying those out of purgatory... What was the point in the "Blood of Jesus" for the remission of sins?  Wouldn't purgatory and praying the loved ones out make the Blood a moot point?

Resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ's redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn't. And one cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Quote from: kensington on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 23:00:20
Also... what about the poor soul who has no one to pray them out?

Obviously, you have never been to a Mass.  Every poor soul has someone to pray for them.

Quote from: kensington on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 23:00:20
Also.... The Catholic encyclopedia states that "Purgatory is an eschatological idea. Thus, it's importiance is the theological significance... "NOT IT'S FACTUAL EXISTANCE"... they also state it is a state of penance... which seems somewhat far fetched to me, after death, there is no repentance... is your sins are not covered by the blood. No time in a place called purgatory will matter. (Which the CC states is really only and idea and does not teach a factual existance of)... so, what is the real point?

Kensington, you have to understand the concepts of venial and mortal sins before you can grasp this one.  Again, Catholics do not believe that the soul is merely "cloaked in righteousness."  The soul can still be corrupted and blemished by the stain of sin, even after we are justified.  Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).  Actually, I am surprised that Protestants do not believe in Purgatory.  The Protestant understanding of justification would make it necessary.  Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that's not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Quote from: kensington on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 23:00:20
If you are saved by grace through the blood of Jesus, and it is the Blood of Jesus that was shed for the remission of sins, then there is no need for purgatory, which the church cannot prove has a "FACTUAL" existance to begin with.

I love the way you use the word "FACTUAL."  You are supposing that we can actually prove the existence of something that does not exist in the physical world.  It is like proving that there is a heaven and a hell.  When was the last time you have been to either?  It amazes me that the words "Trinity" or "Incarnation" are no where to be found in Scripture.  Based on your logic, are we to deny these two basic ideals which are so central to the faith?

While I was researching earlier, I came across the best analogy I have seen that puts the doctrine of Purgatory in perspective.  The last line really struck me when I read it.

The best way to understand the idea of already being forgiven but still having to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin is by analogy: imagine you are the parent of a 7-year old child who steals a candy bar from the local grocery. The child is repentant, in tears, sobbing his apologies. You, being the good parent (as God, our Father is!) forgive that child and love him and show him your mercy. But being a good parent means that you are also just and will expect that child to pay back the store. Purgatory is God's way of forgiving us, loving us, showing us His mercy and justice -- and making us "pay back the store." Can you imagine what would happen to the child of a parent who never expected that child to "pay back the store" (especially when that same parent believed also that there was nothing that child could do to become "disinherited," as in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine)? As always, the best way to understand Catholic doctrine is to think of God as the wisest, most loving, most merciful, and most just Father that we can possibly envision.

Ok boys and girls, we have touched on justification and purgatory.  I really like this.  As I argue and debate with you guys, my Catholic faith grows only stronger.  I do wish some of you would really present some solid arguments though.  If you are going to condemn Catholic doctrine and basically say that we are un-Christian and anti-Christ...back it up!  It amazes me that I too am able to cite Scripture to support my arguments.  Not only Scripture, but also history, writings of the Church Fathers, etc.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 16:08:28
Ok boys and girls, we have touched on justification and purgatory.  I really like this.  As I argue and debate with you guys, my Catholic faith grows only stronger.  I do wish some of you would really present some solid arguments though.  If you are going to condemn Catholic doctrine and basically say that we are un-Christian and anti-Christ...back it up!

There are lots of examples of controversy in the Bible.  In The New Testament a large amount was to try and catch Jesus out.    But they could not because Jesus is the way.
Here we are not trying to catch Jesus out.  The daft thing is we all agree that Jesus is the way.  So why is there all this may be not hatred as we don't actually know one another, but why is there this blind refusal to accept that we are ALL Christians believing that Jesus is the way.  Yes our doctrine is different to GCM . But at the end of the day, Jesus is the way.  Can we not discuss things without splitting hairs on matters to try and prove who is more right than the other? 

GOD LOVES US ALL whatever you may feel about different doctrines.

Broach, you are still saying (with many words) that the "Blood of Jesus" was not enough to wash away sins, to purify us and to give us eternal life.

No matter how you cut it, you are still saying that Jesus is not enough. 

"Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet they can be as white as snow"...  That is all Jesus said. He never implied that there was another cleansing processs, or place to go before "If I go to prepare a place for you"... that is heaven.  There is no "other place" first.  There is here, and the "Place he prepared" for us in His death, ressurection and acsention.  No more... Your religion add's words to the Bible that are not there. Places we do not have to go.

And I have been to too many Mass' to count.  I'm the few in my family and extended family that is not Catholic.  LOL.  You assume things that are not so. Just like with Purgatory. LOL.

I attended a funeral mass just the other day.  I watched the empty faces with Religion and no hope. No real understanding of what they did or said, or why. Just a time of doing what the priest told them, saying what he implied they should, and walking out on his promise (not God's) but his promise the body was in heaven.  I'm sorry, that is just not good enough for me.  You know, when the family lined up to go into the Mass, and they were placing the items on the casket for the rituals... the mom and dad looked at each other and asked, "do you have a bible to put on the casket?"... NO... NO.. came the reply... as the question passed through the immediate family members on back... the same reply... until they got to me... the aunt, the non Catholic, and I said... Yes, I have one.

Explain that to me.  Purgatory is a moot point, I know it doesn't exist.  But, explain this scenario to me.

"Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that's not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely."

HUH?  Do you see the inconsistency in this statement?   Through grace we are forgiven of our sins, and by the blood we are "CLEANSED" not covered, and can spend eternity in Heaven.... by your own words too, BUT.... That is not suffient to gain entrance?

This statement makes no sense. Jesus Blood does "cleanse completely"...  Totally and completely.  "Though your sins be as scarlet, they can be as WHITE as snow"... now WHITE is clean.  That is not covered, that is cleanesed.  It takes a WHOLE LOT of bleach to make something that is "scarlet" in color to "WHITE"... you may try a few times and get a pink, or pale pink.. but for it to be WHITE AS SNOW... takes the BLOOD OF JESUS. 

My husband spent his life in the CC and the religion system through schools, when I took this question to him, (today he is an Officer in the Navy, a Protestant Layleader) His reply was...    "THIS is exactly why I left that religious system, they are corrupting the word of God."...  anyway...

My point is, if Jesus says you are white as snow, then you are. And no idea of another cleansing is going to make you any cleaner than He can. HTH.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 15:36:10
He needs to be cleansed completely.

All who are in Christ are cleansed completely.

Heb 10:14  For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Notice the perfect tense of the verb translated "perfected." The Greek perfect tense indicates completed past action. In other words, it's a done deal. Christ's sacrifice has paid our sin debt in full.

Kensington,
No matter what I say, you will never understand the teachings and doctrines of the Church.  The sacrifice of Christ was enough.  However, the moment of acceptance was merely just the beginning of a life long process.  It doesn't end with the moment of that we are justified.  I would strongly advise to really research the Catholic understanding of justification and sanctification, and then it may appear clear.  You keep saying that we are cleansed, but you never elaborate on exactly what that means.  How are we "cleansed?"  What happens to the soul during this process?  Is being saved a one time event, or an ongoing process?  How can we be continuously cleansed if we continue to sin?  I am not saying that we can never be cleansed (you can use the term "state of grace" in place of "cleansed").

As far as the scenario you presented, you are generalizing.  Are you telling me that Protestant churches don't have members that don't know doctrine, read their Bibles, etc.  Give me a break.  It is a shame that most Catholics (and there are many) have lost touch with the faith.  I believe that Protestants who convert to Catholicism have a better appreciation of what the faith teaches.  I can't tell you just how excited I am to attend mass every Sunday.  I look forward to it every week.  So please, spare me the scenarios.  By the way, my Church, as most Catholic Churches do, actually provide a Bible in each pew.

Quote from: ann on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 16:23:29

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 16:08:28
Ok boys and girls, we have touched on justification and purgatory.  I really like this.  As I argue and debate with you guys, my Catholic faith grows only stronger.  I do wish some of you would really present some solid arguments though.  If you are going to condemn Catholic doctrine and basically say that we are un-Christian and anti-Christ...back it up!

There are lots of examples of controversy in the Bible.  In The New Testament a large amount was to try and catch Jesus out.    But they could not because Jesus is the way.
Here we are not trying to catch Jesus out.  The daft thing is we all agree that Jesus is the way.  So why is there all this may be not hatred as we don't actually know one another, but why is there this blind refusal to accept that we are ALL Christians believing that Jesus is the way.  Yes our doctrine is different to GCM . But at the end of the day, Jesus is the way.  Can we not discuss things without splitting hairs on matters to try and prove who is more right than the other? 

GOD LOVES US ALL whatever you may feel about different doctrines.

Ann, I would agree.  However, you have no idea what Catholics are subjected to.  Anti-Catholicism can be vicious and down right personal.  Just look at some of the postings on this board.  We are "anti-Christ" and "anti-Christian."  We adhere to a false gospel, even thought that gospel goes back 2000 years.  As I have stated before, there is little difference between Catholics and Orthodox Christians, but I haved never seen Orthodox Christians being subjected to this kind of stuff.  Catholics are not even considered to be Christian.  Catholics have to constantly justify their positions and tear apart misconceptions.  But, you are right...God loves us all.

Quote from: Machaira on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 17:38:07

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 15:36:10
He needs to be cleansed completely.

All who are in Christ are cleansed completely.

Heb 10:14  For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Notice the perfect tense of the verb translated "perfected." The Greek perfect tense indicates completed past action. In other words, it's a done deal. Christ's sacrifice has paid our sin debt in full.

So in other words, we can sin all we want without consequence.  Or better yet, we no longer sin.  Would that be a fair assessment?

The cleansing of our sins was a ONCE and for all thing. It was completed in an instant on the cross when Jesus said... "It is finished"... The only process left is to walk in faith with him. Believing in Him as LORD.

There is no other cleansing. If we sin, we confess and we are forgiven.  We do not go anywhere AFTER life for this to happen. It is done. At death... it's over.

At the point of death, the Christian goes immediately into the pecsence of Christ, there to enjoy fellowship with the Savior until the day of the resurrection and glorious transformation of the body.  The saved will then forever live in fellowship with God. And when the unbeliever dies, they are consigned to hell.  There they wait the day of judgement when they shall receive eternal tormented separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

Matt. 25:46, Luke 16:19-31, John 5: 25-29, I Cor. 15:35-58, II Cor. 5:1-10, Phil. 1:19-26,  Phil. 3: 20-21, II Thess. 1:5-10, Rev. 20:11-15 and Rev. 21:1 to 22:15. 

Quote from: broach972 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 21:37:08


Once again J Man, you have demonstrated your ignorance of Catholic doctrine, Church history, and Scripture.  I offer the following tidbits.  I am currently trying to get some straight answers from Machaira on another matter but I offer the following for thought.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

Why is this purification necessary?  As Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven (I can already see the next debate forming).

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren't in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn't use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one's sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man's work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man's work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can't refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can't be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible's approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner's Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Well, would you look at that.  A nicely formulated argument with Scripture verses.  I think that this is better than just simply saying that Purgatory is a lie.

You mention that some people must be in a third condition at least temporarily. That is contrary to scripture. Jesus only mentions of 2 roads, the wide road that leads to  destruction and the narrow road that leads unto life(Matthew7:13,14). That's either Heaven or hell. The road that leads to life, who is that life? That is Jesus Christ. Eternal life is found through His sacrfiice on that cross. John3:18 says that He that believe on Jesus Christ is not condemned, but he that believes not is already condemned. If yuo reject Christ, your on your way to hell, through accepting Him as saviour, all your sins are forgiven, therefore there is no "third condition." There is either life or death. One or the other. Romans8;1 says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus while 1st John1:9 says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Therefore, those who've repented of their sins, are not going to be condmened, all their sins are forgive, they do not need a third condition or purgatory. Those who die in their sins, will surely perish. The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus(Romans6:23). Ther eis "NO PURGATORY, there is either life or death!

Quote from: James A. Wyly on Sat Jul 21, 2007 - 18:35:13

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sat Jul 21, 2007 - 18:00:21
broach972


The Catholic church..... believe(s) that it is the Spirit working in ones life that makes them acceptable to God.  It is the Spirit that saves not Christ.

The Catholic Church, as do all other liturgical churches, recites the Nicene Creed every mass as a statement of its basic beliefs.  In part, that Creed says:

This is an inherently false statement because it presumes that all liturgical churches consider the observance of the Lord's Super to be a "mass" and this is not true. The way the Catholics, Episcopaleans, Lutherans etc. celebrate communion might look the same on some levels but there there are very different doctrines and theologies at play. Nevertheless, not all liturgical churches recite the Nicene creed when they celebrate communion.

Quote from: VerbumReale on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 21:07:21

Quote from: James A. Wyly on Sat Jul 21, 2007 - 18:35:13

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sat Jul 21, 2007 - 18:00:21
broach972


The Catholic church..... believe(s) that it is the Spirit working in ones life that makes them acceptable to God.  It is the Spirit that saves not Christ.

The Catholic Church, as do all other liturgical churches, recites the Nicene Creed every mass as a statement of its basic beliefs.  In part, that Creed says:

This is an inherently false statement because it presumes that all liturgical churches consider the observance of the Lord's Super to be a "mass" and this is not true. The way the Catholics, Episcopaleans, Lutherans etc. celebrate communion might look the same on some levels but there there are very different doctrines and theologies at play. Nevertheless, not all liturgical churches recite the Nicene creed when they celebrate communion.

I said that the Catholic Church recites the Nicene Creed every mass.  Other liturgical churches also recite the creed.  When I was a Presbyterian, we recited the Creed every Sunday.  I did not say that every liturgical church celebrated mass.  Just wanted to give a clarification.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 17:53:51

Quote from: Machaira on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 17:38:07

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 15:36:10
He needs to be cleansed completely.

All who are in Christ are cleansed completely.

Heb 10:14  For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Notice the perfect tense of the verb translated "perfected." The Greek perfect tense indicates completed past action. In other words, it's a done deal. Christ's sacrifice has paid our sin debt in full.

So in other words, we can sin all we want without consequence.  Or better yet, we no longer sin.  Would that be a fair assessment?

When and if you ever decide to take this discussion seriously, let me know.

Broach, I am well I don't know but I do know you are NOT the only Catholic here. I have repeated often enough that I am catholic!  do not hold crusades until you know what you are talking about.  Reading through you just seem to be happy shouting everyone down without any good reason.  get off your high horse and start behaving as though you are a catholic otherwise these guys are going to think they are better off not being a catholic judging by the way you talk down to everyone.  Grow up.  Catholics had it hard in the past but NOT NOW. The ones who have it hard now is through their own doing. It don't have to be like that now.  Stop plugging what you don't know

1 corinthians 3:15, says, "if it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

one of my major concerns with catholic doctrine lies with it's putting more emphasis on tradition rather than the written word.

this point is illustrated well in the catholic church's devotion to mary.

the following is an excerpt from the new advent (the catholic encyclopedia) on the origins of the exhortation of mary:

The first prophecy referring to Mary is found in the very opening chapters of the Book of Genesis (3:15): "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

This rendering appears to differ in two respects from the original Hebrew text(point one deals with the verb for crush and i did not include):


(2) The second point of difference between the Hebrew text and our version concerns the agent who is to inflict the mortal wound on the serpent:

our version agrees with the present Vulgate text in reading "she" (ipsa) which refers to the woman, while the Hebrew text reads hu' (autos, ipse) which refers to the seed of the woman.

According to our version, and the Vulgate reading, the woman herself will win the victory; according to the Hebrew text, she will be victorious through her seed.

In this sense does the Bull "Ineffabilis" ascribe the victory to Our Blessed Lady.

The reading "she" (ipsa) is neither an intentional corruption of the original text, nor is it an accidental error; it is rather an explanatory version expressing explicitly the fact of Our Lady's part in the victory over the serpent, which is contained implicitly in the Hebrew original.

The strength of the Christian tradition as to Mary's share in this victory may be inferred from the retention of "she" in St. Jerome's version in spite of his acquaintance with the original text and with the reading "he" (ipse) in the old Latin version.


to me, this is a rather damning testimony.

to justify a practice, that is admittedly not what the original text states, because jerome, despite clear evidence to the contrary, inserted a feminine rendering.

the writers of the catholic encyclopedia readily admit that the translation used by catholics today is foundationally corrupted.

but continue on undeterred and procede to fill hundreds of pages in it's bounds to show why traditionally this is sound doctrine.

this is one of many instances where the vatican has ignored scripture and supplanted it with their overwrought traditions.

(here is the link)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm

Quote from: broach972 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 21:44:40
Wow, Catholicism is such a complex system of theology that I feel as though I am juggling many balls at the same time--Purgatory, Justification, etc.  And again, there are very little theological differences between Catholics and Orthodox Christians, it would be nice if they could jump in. 

Hi everyone     I find it interesting that just the word "Catholic" sets off a 9-page thread.  Since asked, I will post a few comments about the Orthodox views here.

Salvation -
Salvation is ultimately God's business, not man's.  Nevertheless, the Orthodox church has some things to say about it. Broach is right; The Orthodox view is closer to the Catholic view on this one.  I would say that faith is the basis of salvation, with works going on top of it.  (After all, faith without works is dead.) There are no formulas about salvation just the idea that faith and works are both needed.  Even Hank Hanagraff says the Catholic view of salvation is within the pale of small o orthodoxy.   

Purgatory - The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory, because it is not found in Scripture.  A bigger issue here is the idea in the RCC that theology "develops."  Orthodox believe that Jude 3's statement that the faith was given once for all opposes this view.  We may -actually very rarely- find some expression of a Biblical principle and bring it into the church, but it must be based on the Bible.  Purgatory is not in the Bible, so it's out.
Furthermore, change is not implemented by a single person, but must be agreed to by ALL churches.  The means of doing this is in a council, modeled in Acts 15.  The last time this happened was (I think) a thousand years ago, but the last true clarification occurred in 787 .

Quote from: saved on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 02:55:36
one of my major concerns with catholic doctrine lies with it's putting more emphasis on tradition rather than the written word.

We view Scripture has part of tradition.  After all, the church, which is the "Pillar and ground of Truth (I Timothy 3:15), existed before the NT and in fact saw the need to compile the NT.  The Church cannot violate or go around the Scriptures (Purgatory) but, when there is consensus, we get things like the Nicene Creed, explanation of the Trinity, and some more controversial ones like the Sacrimental Life and worship using icons. 

Thanks for reading     
   

ann

I have a friend that is a Catholic.  I asked him if he is still donating to the Catholic church since the $600,000,000 scandle?  He said, no way Hosea.

Are you still supporting the church?

Robert, isn't Ann an Anglican, not a Roman Catholic?  They aren't the same, you know.

jmg3rd

I don't know, she said she was a Catholic post #120

I think she's distinguishing between little-c catholic and BIG-C Catholic.

don has a
plan

Is that anything like a first class Catholic, and a second class Catholic?

The first class have arrived, the second class are still struggling.

Quote from: ann on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 02:04:31
Broach, I am well I don't know but I do know you are NOT the only Catholic here. I have repeated often enough that I am catholic!  do not hold crusades until you know what you are talking about.  Reading through you just seem to be happy shouting everyone down without any good reason.  get off your high horse and start behaving as though you are a catholic otherwise these guys are going to think they are better off not being a catholic judging by the way you talk down to everyone.  Grow up.  Catholics had it hard in the past but NOT NOW. The ones who have it hard now is through their own doing. It don't have to be like that now.  Stop plugging what you don't know

Ann, I was under the assumption that you were Anglican--not the same as a Catholic.  I am aware of what I am talking about.  I have been on both sides of the fence.  How can I be shouting if I cannot be heard?  Trust me, I feel as though I am being talked down to...I am not the only one pontificating here.  I have read enough anti-Catholic literature to know that alot of it is vicious.  Even on this same board, how many have said that Catholics are not Christian.  Some even consider the Catholic Church a cult.  Have you ever seen the Chick tracts and comics?  Alot of the comments I have seen on this forum concerning Catholics and Catholicism have been pretty harsh...so excuse me if I seem a little irritated.  I refuse to let those ignorant of the Catholic faith to continue to trash it.  It IS these people who have no idea what they are talking about.

And your cute animation sums up how I feel at times....I do feel like I am beating a dead horse.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 11:10:50
ann

I have a friend that is a Catholic.  I asked him if he is still donating to the Catholic church since the $600,000,000 scandle?  He said, no way Hosea.

Are you still supporting the church?

Not only is this below the belt, this is just poor taste.  If this is all you have to contribute, then this is pretty sad.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 12:35:00
don has a
plan

Is that anything like a first class Catholic, and a second class Catholic?

The first class have arrived, the second class are still struggling.

Robert, the small "c" catholic simply means universal.  As such, everyone who is in Christ is part of the small "c" catholic church.  The large "C" Catholic church is the specific church which is under the authority of the Pope and attends mass at their local "Catholic" church.  I hope that clears things up for you.

I know enough to know that the creed is NOT recited at every mass.  They do not do it at a wedding mass or a  burial mass.  No, they do not.

So... the blanket statement that it is recited at EVERY mass is a mistake or .... whatever.

Quote from: kensington on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 16:56:37
I know enough to know that the creed is NOT recited at every mass.  They do not do it at a wedding mass or a  burial mass.  No, they do not.

So... the blanket statement that it is recited at EVERY mass is a mistake or .... whatever.

Oh Kensignton [shaking my head], I am aware of this.  I am talking about the masses attended to on Saturday Vigils and Sundays (solemn and sung masses).  Weddings and burials are different.  Please, I beg you.  Do some research.  Take some time off.  Let me recommend the following website that will answer all of your questions.

www.fisheaters.com

broach972

You may think it is below the belt, but I think it is a serious issue with your religion.

Broach, I forgive you for speaking to me that way.

No, I won't take time off. 

And I will add to my comments above... graduation mass' also don't recite the creed.  That's just the thing, you made the blanket statement, and when corrected, you cover yourself as though the rest of us should have known what you meant.

The "above you" attitude is one of the many things that separates the "religious" people from the body of Christ. The religious seem to think they are entitled to talk down to those not of the same religion.

Another thing my husband has clarified for me about the Catholic church and why he left.  They claim Christianity... but they speak to the rest of us as though we don't matter.  I'm not sure that is sound doctrine. On any level. God Bless.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 17:52:17

Quote from: ann on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 16:23:29

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 16:08:28
Ok boys and girls, we have touched on justification and purgatory.  I really like this.  As I argue and debate with you guys, my Catholic faith grows only stronger.  I do wish some of you would really present some solid arguments though.  If you are going to condemn Catholic doctrine and basically say that we are un-Christian and anti-Christ...back it up!

There are lots of examples of controversy in the Bible.  In The New Testament a large amount was to try and catch Jesus out.    But they could not because Jesus is the way.
Here we are not trying to catch Jesus out.  The daft thing is we all agree that Jesus is the way.  So why is there all this may be not hatred as we don't actually know one another, but why is there this blind refusal to accept that we are ALL Christians believing that Jesus is the way.  Yes our doctrine is different to GCM . But at the end of the day, Jesus is the way.  Can we not discuss things without splitting hairs on matters to try and prove who is more right than the other? 

GOD LOVES US ALL whatever you may feel about different doctrines.

Ann, I would agree.  However, you have no idea what Catholics are subjected to.  Anti-Catholicism can be vicious and down right personal.  Just look at some of the postings on this board.  We are "anti-Christ" and "anti-Christian."  We adhere to a false gospel, even thought that gospel goes back 2000 years.  As I have stated before, there is little difference between Catholics and Orthodox Christians, but I haved never seen Orthodox Christians being subjected to this kind of stuff.  Catholics are not even considered to be Christian.  Catholics have to constantly justify their positions and tear apart misconceptions.  But, you are right...God loves us all.

I've met very few Christians (no matter the denomination, Catholic or Protestant) who didn't, at least at some point in their life, feel like they got it right and condescended to others who "didn't have it right". 

And I've never met a person who didn't feel condescended to.  We've all been put upon -- even the non-religious have problems.  No one is special in this regard.  We all feel the need to defend ourselves.

Unless we allow Christ to do it for us.  :o)

Quote from: kensington on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 18:02:14
Broach, I forgive you for speaking to me that way.

No, I won't take time off. 

And I will add to my comments above... graduation mass' also don't recite the creed.  That's just the thing, you made the blanket statement, and when corrected, you cover yourself as though the rest of us should have known what you meant.

The "above you" attitude is one of the many things that separates the "religious" people from the body of Christ. The religious seem to think they are entitled to talk down to those not of the same religion.

Another thing my husband has clarified for me about the Catholic church and why he left.  They claim Christianity... but they speak to the rest of us as though we don't matter.  I'm not sure that is sound doctrine. On any level. God Bless.

Kensignton, please accept my sincere apology.  I am not above anyone.  I just made an assumption that when I talk of "mass," I am referring to the masses celebrated on Saturday Vigil and Sundays.  I don't agree with your characterization of the Church though.  Catholics certianly don't go around saying that Protestants are not Christians or members of cults.  We don't refer to Protestants as "anti-Christ" or "anti-gospel."  We actually recognize that our separated brethren are in fact Christian.  As my priest once stated, there are many Protestants who are better followers of Christ than many of the Catholics I know.  As far as your husband is concerned, I am sure he had his reasons for leaving the Chruch as I have my reasons for entering the Church.

Quote from: ann on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 02:04:31
  get off your high horse and start behaving as though you are a catholic

Actually Ann, he needs to behave as a christian, not a catholic. This is about being "christian," not about being catholic. All christians need to develop in the fruit of the Spirit(Galatians5:22,23). Colossians3:12 tells us to put on the bowels of mercy, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness and longsuffering. Even when people don't agree, there should be no reason for anyone to get ticked off at anyone. If everyone operated int he fruit of the Spirit and lived by the golden rule, people wouldn't react like that just because someone tells them they are wrong. Reality is though, many get offended if you don't tell them what they want to hear.

Quote from: broach972 on Wed Jul 25, 2007 - 16:20:21


  I feel as though I am being talked down to...

Were not doing this to put you down broach. Your perceiving it the wrong way. This isn't about judging you. But there are some who want the truth to come out about false gospels. All that info at Jack Chick's website simply exposes the falsities and corruption within the RCC. Have yuo even read the story from former jesuit priest Alberto Rivera and what he exposes about the RCC? Since he's been in the catholic system and was a jesuit priest, he knows what goes on. He knows how corrupt the RCC's leadership truly is.