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Thank you for all your sincere comments.

I will not get into another argument denying the link between baptism and  salvation...As far as I am concerned, we have beaten that pony to death elsewhere.

However, I would like to say that most of our traditional arguments tying immersion to baptism, exclusively, are actually quite weak.  As one who has coached a L2L debate team on this subject several years ago, I am surprised that we have not lost more arguments on this than we may have had.

The sole watertight justification for the claim that I have discovered is the following:

1. We read in John3:23 that John the Baptist chose areas in which to baptize where there was much water.  And we have seen that the John's baptism of Jesus, and Philip's Christian baptism of the Ethiopian Eunuch are described nearly identically.

While the desire for, or use of, a lot of water does not necessarily rule out sprinkling or pouring...

2.  Baptism must also symbolically resemble Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:3-5, Col 2:12). 

3.  We read in all of the Gospel accounts (Matthew 27:60, Mark 15:46, Luke 23:53, John 19:42), that Jesus' body was laid down in the tomb. 

From all this, we must conclude...

4.  If we are laid down in much water, we will indeed have been immersed!

Now, having said that, if anyone has what they think is a better, stand alone, argument for immersion, I would be glad to try to challenge it.

That is why historical context is necessary for hearing with their ears and seeing with their eyes.   One thing is likely clear, if one does not even find baptism (of any kind!) of great import, then the form will likely be even less an issue!  Only when baptism is considered relevant, will all relevancy be considered relevant!

If as I understand it you, Person X, are not (yet) one with Christ -- saved -- submitted -- dead and alive again --

Then you are not my brother or sister in that sense.  You have a ways to go in life before you have access to some blessings and gifts waiting for you in the hands of the Lord. 

Me getting all smiley about your love of the Lord and whatever else is attractive about you and not ever bothering to explain anything to you more fully, not bothering to tell you there is something else to explore, is NOT and act of love and sensitivity toward you on my part!

Thank God that He is the ultimate judge.  Thank Jesus that He advocates and judges and sets up His very self, the Word, as our judge.  Thanks be to God all that ain't got nothin' to do with me.

My opinion about where you stand, Sister Y, spiritually, are just that, opinions.  They certainly don't sway God one way or another.  But, keeping that in mind -- if I think my opinion happens to be right -- and of course I do, or else why would I hold it? --

And if I think you may not know the Lord, or more importantly, if I think He may not know you --

It is a Satanic thing and evil if I do not try to tell you what I think you need to know, to manifest your salvation.

A quick and short answer to the two part question...

Is baptism necessary to get into Heaven?  Yes
Does it have be done by immersion?  No

Have a great day.

Thanks!

Quote from: chandrus on Thu Jul 19, 2007 - 02:15:29
I strongly believe it is required, by the grace of God I took it.


**edited by Admin. Note: Please capitalize proper nouns--especially God.

Hello Everyone

Please forgive me for ... sqeeeezin' in ...  rather late on this thread (some 7 pages deep in fact )

Gotta' a question for anyone who's "up to answering it    ...

With reference to the "original" thread question ...

" Is immersion baptism necessary to go to Heaven? "

In the "Apocalypse of John" (Book of Revelation) - Chapters 7 & 14:

Does not John speak of some 144,000 (non-immersed/un-baptized "sealed-souls" ascending to the 3rd Heaven

Surely, we know this Book not only to be the last canonical book of the New Testament in the Bible ... BUT ... it is also, the only biblical book that is wholly composed of apocalyptic (prophecy of devastation)  literature.

What say you, Church   Hmmmmmmm?


Gracious

Quote from: Gracious on Thu Aug 02, 2007 - 05:15:38

Quote from: chandrus on Thu Jul 19, 2007 - 02:15:29
I strongly believe it is required, by the grace of God I took it.


**edited by Admin. Note: Please capitalize proper nouns--especially God.

Hello Everyone

Please forgive me for ... sqeeeezin' in ...  rather late on this thread (some 7 pages deep in fact )

Gotta' a question for anyone who's "up to answering it    ...

With reference to the "original" thread question ...

" Is immersion baptism necessary to go to Heaven? "

In the "Apocalypse of John" (Book of Revelation) - Chapters 7 & 14:

Does not John speak of some 144,000 (non-immersed/un-baptized "sealed-souls" ascending to the 3rd Heaven

Surely, we know this Book not only to be the last canonical book of the New Testament in the Bible ... BUT ... it is also, the only biblical book that is wholly composed of apocalyptic (prophecy of devastation)  literature.

What say you, Church   Hmmmmmmm?


Gracious

Rev 7 and 14 say they weren't baptized??  I just read them and maybe I possibly overlooked it, but verse please?

Hello Gary & Errr-body,

In The "Book Of Revelation", chapter 7:1-5 (actually the whole chapter - verses 1-17) and also in chapter 14:1-5 ... Nowhere is it written ...(that I can see anyways) ... that these "Sealed" People (144,000 - of the 12 original tribes of Isreal) ... under went "immersion-Baptism" ... as this thread's subject line suggests.

Please know, that if "it" is there, show "it" to me, and as always, I will "humbly" stand corrected.


Gracious

Quote from: Gracious on Thu Aug 02, 2007 - 15:23:09
Hello Gary & Errr-body,

In The "Book Of Revelation", chapter 7:1-5 (actually the whole chapter - verses 1-17) and also in chapter 14:1-5 ... Nowhere is it written ...(that I can see anyways) ... that these "Sealed" People (144,000 - of the 12 original tribes of Isreal) ... under went "immersion-Baptism" ... as this thread's subject line suggests.

Please know, that if "it" is there, show "it" to me, and as always, I will "humbly" stand corrected.


Gracious

Gracious, there is a whole about the 144,000 that we don't know and I guess their baptismal status is one of them. Doesn't say they were or were not baptised. The fact that it didn't say doesn't mean necessarily that they weren't baptised. It doesn't say whether they were male or female, but we do know they were Jews. (Messianic Jews)

It's like the places that talk about we are saved by faith. Sometimes it doesn't mention repentence, in every occasion, but it wouldn't be out of line to interpret that repentence is necessary even if it is not mentioned in every salvational context. Same is true with baptism or confessing the name of Jesus.

Thank You Jaime,

I agree, the Bible appears "silent" regarding this matter. YES, "they" (the "entire" 144,000) were all Messianic (related to THE MESSIAH - promising deliverance).

Soooo ... "YES", Scripture does show that "they" (at the time of their SEALED-ascention) were "Saved"... BUT ..."immersed-Baptized" ... I tend to doubt it.

Thanks again,

Gracious

Quote from: Gracious on Thu Aug 02, 2007 - 15:23:09
Hello Gary & Errr-body,

In The "Book Of Revelation", chapter 7:1-5 (actually the whole chapter - verses 1-17) and also in chapter 14:1-5 ... Nowhere is it written ...(that I can see anyways) ... that these "Sealed" People (144,000 - of the 12 original tribes of Isreal) ... under went "immersion-Baptism" ... as this thread's subject line suggests.

Please know, that if "it" is there, show "it" to me, and as always, I will "humbly" stand corrected.


Gracious

I don't see that they were baptized or not baptized, so I will not assume they were not and force someone to prove it.

Quote from: Gary on Thu Aug 02, 2007 - 16:33:41

Quote from: Gracious on Thu Aug 02, 2007 - 15:23:09
Hello Gary & Errr-body,

In The "Book Of Revelation", chapter 7:1-5 (actually the whole chapter - verses 1-17) and also in chapter 14:1-5 ... Nowhere is it written ...(that I can see anyways) ... that these "Sealed" People (144,000 - of the 12 original tribes of Isreal) ... under went "immersion-Baptism" ... as this thread's subject line suggests.

Please know, that if "it" is there, show "it" to me, and as always, I will "humbly" stand corrected.


Gracious

I don't see that they were baptized or not baptized, so I will not assume they were not and force someone to prove it.

I doubt John spoke of the 144,000 with immersion baptism in mind anyway.  I am not even convinced that he wrote it with DNA in mind for that matter.  Nor apparently did Jesus with the great commision or peter with his gospel sermon or Paul when he was immersed.

I'm inclined to agree with you,

Because ...

(Now, please bare w/ me 'cause this may "appear" to steer away from topic a bit ... Amen?)

According to Revelation 20:4, there will be people ruling in the Millennium with CHRIST. These people will be comprised of the Church (believers in Jesus CHRIST), Old Testament saints (believers who died before CHRIST's first advent), and Tribulation saints (those who accept CHRIST during the Tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people.

Furthermore, the Millennium is different from the Eternal State, which will take place at the completion of the Millennial Kingdom. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our GOD and we will be HIS People (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in CHRIST and "Sealed" by the HOLY SPIRIT (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours and we will all be co-heirs with CHRIST (Romans 8:17).


Gracious