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created by God

Quote from: mike on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 22:54:53
created by God

Ditto.  He used his freewill to rebel.

His name was Lucifer in heaven, and because of pride ("I will be like the Most High.") he was cast down.

I believe Satan was an earth being not an fallen angel.  The pre-flood world was very different.  People lived to be 900+.  The animals had not fear of man.  It is not a far stretch to imagine some or even all of them could talk.  It is also easy to see why they would be jealous of man's special place with God.

If you believe that the Pseudographia is inspired than its evidence that Satan was the leader of the angels who turned away from their heavenly abode, came to Earth and lusted after mankind.  The book of Jude alludes to the book of Enoch and Genesis the 6th chapter alludes to this as well. 

The word satan in greek (satanas) means an adversary, to resist to oppose or counteract...

Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6 - "Satan presented himself before the Lord"

II Cor. 11:14 - "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light"

How does this correspond to satan?


12 How you have fallen from heaven,
       O morning star, son of the dawn!
       You have been cast down to the earth,
       you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
       "I will ascend to heaven;
       I will raise my throne
       above the stars of God;
       I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
       on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain

So with that being said I believe that Satan was one of the heavenly host... possibly a seraph, who opposed God and led a group of angels to interact with mankind in a way that God had not intended.  They also lusted after God's new creation and had children with them which were known as the Nephilim.... and that is why God caused the flood to destroy the angelic/human hybrids from the planet, and later why he had Israel conduct genocide against Canaan.

I didn't know that angels have freewill, I thought that humans are the only beings that have been given this priviledge.

Just curious where that idea came from (angels not having free will)?

Usually the whole defense against my belief regarding the angels comes from Jesus saying there'll be no marrying in heaven (Matthew 22:30).... yet the fallen ones did their fornicating on Earth, and Jesus was actually talking about marraige in that verse and not sex.  Matthew 22:30 specifically is talking about the ceremonial bond of marraige, not "knowing someone" as the KJV would call sex.

The other defense against my beliefs about angels is that "sons of God" in Genesis 6 didn't refer to angels but to the descendants of Cain.  I have a pretty good rebuttal of this... if anyone needs to see it.

Clifty, I am one of those who do not believe that the "sons of God" refer to angels or to the descendants of Cain.  I believe the "sons of God" are Seth's descendants and the "daughters of men" are the descendants of Cain.  Though "Sons of God" is used symbolically of angels in other places of Scritpture, the much more common use of this phrase refers to those who worship the one living and true God.  Thus, the descendants of Seth, though not perfect in the least, are called the Sons of God and the descendants of Cain who had been thrust from God's presence are called the daughters of men. 

When the "sons of God" began to have relations with the "daughters of men" the descendants of Cain began to infect and bring down the "sons of God" to the point that God grieved that he had even created man in the first place.  This is the same thing that would happen when Israel intermarried with idol worshipers and the same thing that Paul we are warned against in the New Testament.  We don't have anything in common with the sons of Belial. 

I figure that angels long to look into a lot more than the grace by which Man is saved.  I figure it's no longshot at all that angels who left God's service would want to live in the flesh.

I also figure that those of us who read the Isiah Lucifer passage and stick to its primary application are standing on good ground.  I mean, a) it's prophecy directed at the king of Babylon, and b) Hell was already stirred up before the person being warned ever fell.

And as for the Earth still being infested with pre-Flood beings... Well, God's primary purpose was to wash that Man right out of His hair.  I suppose He could have left all kinds of other evil things crawling about lusting after our souls, eh,  johntwayne?  I mean, who could fault God for missing them?  He's not a professional exterminator after all.  He got rid of His primary target, most of evil/contaminated Mankind, didn't He?  We could give him at least a solid 85% there, couldn't we?

Spurly said...

QuoteClifty, I am one of those who do not believe that the "sons of God" refer to angels or to the descendants of Cain.  I believe the "sons of God" are Seth's descendants and the "daughters of men" are the descendants of Cain.  Though "Sons of God" is used symbolically of angels in other places of Scritpture, the much more common use of this phrase refers to those who worship the one living and true God.  Thus, the descendants of Seth, though not perfect in the least, are called the Sons of God and the descendants of Cain who had been thrust from God's presence are called the daughters of men. 

When the "sons of God" began to have relations with the "daughters of men" the descendants of Cain began to infect and bring down the "sons of God" to the point that God grieved that he had even created man in the first place.  This is the same thing that would happen when Israel intermarried with idol worshipers and the same thing that Paul we are warned against in the New Testament.  We don't have anything in common with the sons of Belial. 

While I know many people share this view it doesn't fit the context of the book of Jude 1:6, and Enoch whom Jude references as a righteous prophet in Jude 1:14 wrote an entire book that goes into depth regarding this.

Genesis 6:2 and 6:4 if these were normal men why were their offspring giants?  Were were those descendants unclean in a physical sense (read up on the meaning of Noah's generations were without blemish).  Why would descendants of Cain (if they were human) have physically made mankind unclean?

Job 1:6, Job 2:1 the sons of God here obviously refers to Angels.

Job 38:7 would mankind have been present at the creation of the world?

Hosea 1:10 was the only verse I could find that references mankind as "sons of God" but it was in the future tense.

Ecclesiastes 3:10, 3:18 and Daniel 5:21 mankind was referred to as "sons of men".

My study went much more in depth than this if you care to research your viewpoint further.

I don't want to hijack this thread further... but I think it is worth dealing with because if its true Satan was the leader of the first rebellious band of angels who left their first abode.  I also believe it indicates they are created beings of a higher order than mankind who are immensely strong, immensely wise and beautiful... yet in Satan's case can be immensely evil and dangerous.  I believe its obvious too from this viewpoint that they certainly can have free-will and do practically anything mankind can do.

QuoteAnd as for the Earth still being infested with pre-Flood beings... Well, God's primary purpose was to wash that Man right out of His hair.  I suppose He could have left all kinds of other evil things crawling about lusting after our souls, eh,  johntwayne?  I mean, who could fault God for missing them?  He's not a professional exterminator after all.  He got rid of His primary target, most of evil/contaminated Mankind, didn't He?  We could give him at least a solid 85% there, couldn't we?

I don't have much time to reply on this one Janine, but I don't think most proponents of this view believe God's extermination of the 1st batch of Nephilim didn't work.  I think they believe that after the flood the fallen ones did what they did back before Noah's time again.... that time in Canaan.

This is based on the Nephilim being in Canaan in Numbers 13:33, and also in Genesis 6:4 it says "the Nephilim were on the Earth in those days - and also afterward -

Quote from: angeleyes on Tue Jul 24, 2007 - 15:54:57
I didn't know that angels have freewill, I thought that humans are the only beings that have been given this priviledge.

Any cat owner will confirm that animals also have freewill. 

I have a cat, I guess that you are right!

We all know what is taught BUT I have a observation.  Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.

Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.

Quote from: Benoni on Sun Aug 05, 2007 - 20:49:18


We all know what is taught BUT I have a observation.  Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.

I always thought these passages were commonly taken out of context, and should only be applied only to the King of Babylon, and the Prince of Tyrus.

Isa 14:4
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Eze 28:2  
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

And the word "Lucifer" is a word meaning light-bearer as you can see is a transliteration of the definition.

Lucifer 
O.E. Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from L. Lucifer "morning star," lit. "light-bringing," from lux (gen. lucis) + ferre "carry" (see infer). Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its used in Bible to translate Gk. Phosphoros, which translates Heb. Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv.12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [KJV] The verse was interpreted by Christians as a reference to "Satan," because of the mention of a fall from Heaven, even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (cf. Isaiah xiv.4). Lucifer match "friction match" is from 1831.
[Taken from http://www.etymonline.com/]

Where I don't believe that a literal interpretation is the only way to view these passages, I do think it must be considered.

I agree. The reference is at least primarily about the king of Babylon.

Quote from: Benoni on Sun Aug 05, 2007 - 20:49:18
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

How do you see this passage as the origin of Satan?

Its seems to me for that kind of interpretation, you would be estranging it from the rest of the text. Also notice that the "waster" here in Isaiah 54:16 is the same Hebrew word (שחת, or shachath) used for the destroyer of Exodus 12:23. And you also see that the destroyer in 2Samuel 24:16 is an Angel of the Lord, not Satan. So I would conjecture based upon these passages, that Isaiah 54:16 is not speaking of Satan.

But this is just from a fleeting glance at the Scriptures.

I personally do not believe the word "lucifer" is or was a proper name for the devil.

The word "lucifer" comes from the Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome. While the KJV uses "lucifer" only in Isaiah 14:12, the Vulgate uses that same word four times (that I have found).

Job 11:17.
et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer. Latin Vulgate

Your life would be brighter than noonday;
Darkness would be like the morning. NASB

Job 38:32.
numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis. Latin Vulgate

Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites? NASB

Isaiah 14:12.
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes. Latin Vulgate

How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations! NASB

2 Peter 1:19.
et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris. Latin Vulgate

So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. NASB

Any ideas on why the KJV translators did not use "lucifer" in these other places?

Would anybody say it is the name of Satan in 2 Peter 1:19 (not to mention in Job)?

Quote from: soterion on Sun Aug 05, 2007 - 23:51:57The word "lucifer" comes from the Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome. While the KJV uses "lucifer" only in Isaiah 14:12, the Vulgate uses that same word four times (that I have found).

Fascinating, I never knew that. Nor did I ever consider looking at the Vulgate for Biblical information, but that is brilliant.

I will certainly be looking further into these passages.

Hello Everyone,

To me, the "nature of evil

I dunno what assignment the Accuser had from his creation onward --

And I do know that nothing surprises God, Him being always and everywhere if He's anywhen and anywhere at all --

So there is no need for the folks who figure God created Satan as evil to think that.

And no need for anyone to think that Satan was not created.  That which lives and has always been, having no beginning point, is by default God, IMO.  Anyone consider Satan to be God? (Yes, yes, I know, there are deluded thousands who hope he is... that's another thread.)

Quote from: janine on Mon Aug 06, 2007 - 06:05:36Anyone consider Satan to be God? (Yes, yes, I know, there are deluded thousands who hope he is... that's another thread.)

You should start that thread, I've got some comments already.

Benoni posted

QuoteThe word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.

To me it seems like your whole argument hinges on angels not being able to sin (or be murderers and liars).  Angels seem to have some sort of free will like humans if Genesis 6 is any indicator, and Job tells us that Satan tempted man and did evil to him which seems sinful to me.  In Job 38:7 "morning stars" which is closely related to "lucifer" relates to the host of heaven (angels).

But once again I think you're argument hinges on angels not being able to sin... and if Genesis 6 was any indicator the "sons of God" are altogether more than capable of doing all kinds of kinky and sinful things.  Maybe not in the host of God, but when they decide to prowl Earth they are (and Satan is the prince of the World).

And if we want to have a serious discussion about "Satan" we need to understand that Satan is just a descriptive term (satan) which means opposer or denier.  We need to investigate the words "Lucifer", "Samael", "Azazel" and "Belial".

Sorry I a bit new to this Forum and I should have gotten back earlier.  I just believe Satan is nothing but a tool in the hands of an all powerful God and Satan has no power unless God ordained it.  Look at Job it was God who inquired to Satan; it was God who had a hedge to protect Job.  It was God who inquired to Satan what about my servant Job.

God was already pleased with Job, but he had a plan that would make Job even better. Job was a perfect man, but his perfection needed to be tested. Job said, "God knoweth the way that I take, and when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold. For HE performeth the thing that is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him." Job 23:10 & 14. God has prepared a special kind of testing for each individual. In Job 32.13, Elihu said, "God thrusteth Job down, and not man." We can well add, "And not Satan, either!" God takes the full responsibility for every person's fall. These are parts of His ways. All negative forces are as a dog on a leash. They can only do what they are allowed to do by the Hand that holds the leash. The perplexities, the trials, the testings, the pressures and the failures are all God's responsibility and it will all be worked into our good.

It has been well said that "four walls do not a prison make," When we submit to the God of the circumstance instead of to the circumstance itself, then we can know the meaning of genuine freedom and peace. Are the silences of God comfortable to you, or are they frustrating? if you feel secure in the knowledge of what God is really like, then you will be able to accept God's apparent disinterest as part of His ways. Zephaniah 3:17 says, "The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty, He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will (literally) be silent in His love."

QuoteSorry I a bit new to this Forum and I should have gotten back earlier.  I just believe Satan is nothing but a tool in the hands of an all powerful God and Satan has no power unless God ordained it.  Look at Job it was God who inquired to Satan; it was God who had a hedge to protect Job.  It was God who inquired to Satan what about my servant Job.

I agree.  I believe that Satan is simply a created being.... created by God.  I believe he is an angel but one who chose to forsake his place in the throne room of heaven (with the other seraphim and cheribim) to be the prince of the world.  I think he is totally under command of God, but like mankind has freewill.  We are totally under command of God as well.  God could incinerate us anytime he wanted.... but he allows us to act on our own freewill.

I believe this makes Satan especially dangerous because God has given him power over this world and he is an angel with freewill.  Angels obviously have powers, knowledge, strength and longevity that mankind doesn't possess.

I cannot understand why some one would say Satan has a freewill and can do nothing outside of God's Will.  Man does not have freewill towards salvation; God draws Him by grace.
Attribute everything to God's control and the devil will lose his power over you. When adversity comes, don't think about how strong the devil is; think about what God is teaching you through it. Our adversary, the devil, cannot do anything to us unless God wants him to. Fear of what may happen, and ignorance of God's sovereign control combine together to rob us of true peace. Ephesians 4:27 says, "neither give place to the devil." Not many in Christendom know the peace of having their minds guarded by a knowledge of God's intimate sovereign control over Satan's activities. Many have been plagued with the thought about Satan's power that has kept us occupied fighting a war that doesn't even exist.
Proverbs 11:9 says, "Through knowledge shall the just be delivered." The Hebrew word "delivered" means, "drawn out, armed and fortified." Learning about God's intimate sovereign control over all negative activities will draw us out of Babylon's bondage and arm and fortify our minds to face them victoriously.
Neither God nor truth need any defense, for God's sovereign control is total all of the time. When Jesus said (Matthew 28:18), "All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth," He meant "ALL" power. That includes the power of the adversary. When we see God in everything, we will be able to face up to the temporary triumph of evil, for we will know that God is in control. Jesus said, "I can do nothing of Myself." And I declare unto you, neither can Satan. He has no power of his own. Jesus said to Satan, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve." This was not just a command. It was also a prophecy. God will see to it that everything that Satan has done will redound to God's glory.
The Adversary has been divinely placed by God, the Placer, to try us. Isaiah 63:17 tells us that it is God Himself Who causes us to err from His ways, and it is He Who hardens our heart. And Isaiah 66:4 tells us that it is God Himself Who chooses the delusions we get into. 
God is always in total control, always in total intimate sovereign control over everyone and every circumstance. Paul said, "There is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom are ALL things. Howbeit, there is not in every man that knowledge." 1 Corlnthians 8:6. God will lead everyone into an understanding of this truth according to His own perfect timing. Sooner or later He will reveal to everyone that He alone is in control, and He will end the duality of division that is in most minds.
When we learn that all powers are regulated by God, it will change the negatives in our life into positives. 


If Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning (beginning of source) then he could not of also been an angel; we cannot not have it both ways.

SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus
and should be enough to settle the querying minds of all, that he was never
a shining angel of light. He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE
BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD."

(Jn. 8:44; Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has
NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, and also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not likely that it is.

The very people who swear by the Bible never bothered to look up the word freewill in scripture.  Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation.   

Freewill is just another doctrine to put man in the driver's seat; this is God's will; His Word and all of God's it will be accomplished.  It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word that religious men use to make men feel guilty)   for the only freewill we have is to sin;  God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.



Romans 3:11 
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day

1670  helkuo (hel-koo'-o);  drag

Jeremiah 18:2
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.




Romans 9:12  It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.)  16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.  18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.  19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and  Why have you made me thus?   21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?     

Quote(beginning of source)

And there is your inference. 

Truthfully I'm not even sure the thing in the Garden, the being in Job, Satan, Lucifer and Azazel in Enoch are even the same entity.

As far as overcoming sin... its when I let the Holy Spirit operate in my life that I overcome it... as far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with Satan's "power" over me.  Satan has no power over me because I am a new creature in Christ... he can't stand to be near me.  I pretty much fail to let the Holy Spirit work if I stumble nowadays.

The word electricity isn't found in the bible anywhere but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist?

Just because freewill isn't found in the bible doesn't mean it isn't in existence.  It could be inferred that God creating man in his own image is when freewill was created.

I'm sorry but I'm not all into your idea of mankind being some puppet on a string of God.  God wishes for people to worship him in Spirit and in Truth, and from what I can tell if theres no freewill action on our part that wouldn't correlate to much Spirit in worship.

Quote from: Benoni on Wed Aug 08, 2007 - 11:00:21
The very people who swear by the Bible never bothered to look up the word freewill in scripture.

So Benoni, your Calvinistic too. My you are well rounded. predetermination and selfdetermination both exist in Scripture, if you read it closely without prejudice I'm sure you'll find it.

But I would like to hear your insight on this question I put to you, but you must have overlooked.

Lets really look at this word "beginning" too. 

You're referring to John 8:44 and beginning is arche in Greek...

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
a) of angels and demons

It is used by Jesus to refer to these things...

Mat 19:4 - beginning of the world
Mat 19:8 - beginning of the world
Mat 24:8 - generic... "start"
Mar 1:1 - generic... "start"
Mar 10:6 - beginning of creation
Mar 13:8 - generic... "start"
Mar 13:19 - begining of creation
Luke 1:2 - begginning of Christ's ministry
Luke 12:11 - authorities
Luke 20:20 - power
John 1:1 - beginning of all reality, creation?
John 1:2 - same as above
John 2:11 - "first"
John 6:64 - beginning of creation
John 8:25 - from when I "first" met you


Then we come to John 8:44... does it refer to his beginning, the creation of the world, or is it simply a non-literal descriptive phrase.

Personally I don't think it applies to God's existence in any way since God is the Alpha and Omega and is known as I AM.  Would you go so far as to put Satan (a murdered and a liar) in the prescence of God?  To me that is nearly blasphemy.... much worse as far as I'm concerned than believing a "false doctrine".

I know tradition is far more inportant than what scripture declares.  Lets ignor the word freewill is not scritural and as I pointed out above God Word declares He Draws us/drags us. 

Maybe what we have here is God's people not willing or able to change their old wine skins because the new wine does not fit in their old wine skins? 


As I said earlier I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan) I think all things are in God's presence and if God created the destroyer to destroy, is this not God doing a thing?

See you a bit later I need to go to work

Quote from: Benoni on Wed Aug 08, 2007 - 12:16:43
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

I posted this before regarding Isaiah 54:16, but you seemed to either ignored it or overlooked it:

Its seems to me for that kind of interpretation, you would be estranging it from the rest of the text. Also notice that the "waster" here in Isaiah 54:16 is the same Hebrew word (שחת, or shachath) used for the destroyer of Exodus 12:23. And you also see that the destroyer in 2Samuel 24:16 is an Angel of the Lord, not Satan. So I would conjecture based upon these passages, that Isaiah 54:16 is not speaking of Satan.

So just based on the textual analysis, Isaiah 54:16 is not speaking of Satan.