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QuoteMaybe what we have here is God's people not willing or able to change their old wine skins because the new wine does not fit in their old wine skins? 

Nope what we have is someone trying to change someone's mind with an inconclusive, inferior argument.

I posted a pretty good exposition of the usage of "arche" in the gospels.  It can refer to the beginning of the universe, the beginning of creation, generic "beginnings", powers and authorities... the ONLY time "arche" conclusively references a "beginning" that could be before the creation of the world was John 1:1, 1:2.  But even then it could be referring to the creation of the world.  Once again God is "I AM" he exists... so to label God with terms regarding single points in time doesn't quite make sense anyway does it?

I really don't understand your argument about Satan not being an angel.  As I pointed out John 8:44 could be a matter of fact statement... "he's been a murderer and liar since his inception".... couldn't you see yourself saying "that man has been a scoundrel since he was born"?  Would that mean he was slitting the doctor's throat while he lept out of the womb"?  No.  It could also mean Satan was a murderer and liar since the beginning of human creation.  You have nothing in the context of John 8:44 to say that Satan existed with God before the creation of the world, but even if it did why couldn't he be a murderer and a liar before the creation of the world?  What keeps angels from being murderers and liars?  Angels had the ability to be fornicators in Genesis 6.  One of the heavenly host in Job (more than likely Satan) did evil to mankind (I call knocking a house over on a bunch of sons and daughters for no reason, murder)... which was in the form of murder.


continued...

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Benoni, You should study Isaiah 14:12 a little closer....  Perhaps all of us should.

#1 if this verse refers to simply the King of Babylon then he was an angel... ("naphal shamayim" or in English he "fell from heaven")
#2 it names this individual as "heylel" or Lucifer "light bearer"
#3 it names his origin as SON of the morning (ben shachar)

So your argument saying "Satan isn't lucifer because if he is Jesus in Rev 22:16 is Lucifer" totally misses the fact that Isaiah 14:12 says "son of the morning".

As far as I'm concerned this only goes on further to support that Satan was an angel, because angels are frequently called "sons of God".

Quote from: Cliftyman on Wed Aug 08, 2007 - 15:04:21
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You should study Isaiah 14:15 a little closer....  Perhaps all of us should.

#1 if this verse refers to simply the King of Babylon then he was an angel... ("naphal shamayim" or in English he "fell from heaven")
#2 it names this individual as "heylel" or Lucifer "light bearer"
#3 it names his origin as SON of the morning (ben shachar)

So your argument saying "Satan isn't lucifer because if he is Jesus in Rev 22:16 is Lucifer" totally misses the fact that Isaiah 14:15 says "son of the morning".

As far as I'm concerned this only goes on further to support that Satan was an angel, because angels are frequently called "sons of God".

What verse are you talking about?

Isa 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

I dont see any of those points in this verse.

Sorry I mistyped that verse... Isaiah 14:12...

The Jews should have taught us one thing in Jesus day and that is our heavenly Father cannot be contained in systems of man; He is just too big and awesome. No dogma will be strong enough; no creed will can contain enough and no system of man can hold back the rivers of life that will flow and gets deeper and wider as His spirit moves.

It has long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" I have never seen where some one has declared as they did in this FORUM  that Satan sinned from the beginning when he was a so called angel.  This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today.
Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!

The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "Adobe not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (ed: Greek form of steko(?)), I keep my standing, or simply, I stand, and the form is (esteken(?)) meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8). This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit - it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned. Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8 W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M  T-H-E  B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G! Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.

God is not so shallow and naïve as to have such a creature pull the wool over His eyes.  Adam and Eves fall was as much a part of His plan as the death of Jesus on the cross; Satan is but a tool in God's hands.   

QuoteHow authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!

You continue to say the beginning means Satan's formation but your beliefs are based on conjecture, and your usage of the Greek seems suspect to me.  You are reading quite a lot into the verse.

Two verses refer to "Satanas" in Greek that signifies him as an angel
What of Luke 10:18?  "Jesus saw Satan as lightning falling from heaven"?
What of 2Cr 11:15? "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light"?

one verse refers to "Satan" in Hebrew that signifies him as an angel
Job 1:6, 2:1 "Now there was a day when the sons of God (angels) came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan came also among them"

Then if we believe Lucifer referred to Satan, he was the "light-bearer" who was the son of the morning star (Christ, "sons of God") who was cast out and fell from heaven.

So you have been quite open about telling me I'm a person who believe in "traditions of men from ages ago" but the fact is I've formulated my viewpoint on this myself through study.  I'd rather not focus on the teachings of the past but figure it out myself.  Yes, it turns out this doctrine is the historical point of view of the RCC, and most protestant bodies and its also the historical Jewish belief.  Also if you believe in the pseudographia and believe its inspired word of a prophet of God (Enoch) which I believe it is... its a no brainer.

So please save your breath about telling me how I'm believing a false doctrine ignorantly or some tripe like that.  I make my own decisions... and my decision is the evidence in the bible supports Satan being an angel at this time in my opinion.

I'm not perfect and if it could be shown that its otherwise I'd certainly change my mind.

Personally it seems to me that you belong to some tradition that requires you to believe this doctrine for some reason or other.  Perhaps you should look at the way which you are required to believe certain things to associate with a certain group of believers and see if that is the proper way to conduct your life in the kingdom of God?  I don't ascribe to any name, creed or tradition.  Do you?

How does Luke 10:18 speak of the origin of Satan; it merely says he fell from heaven?  He was in the Garden of Eden; obviously he has been in the presence of God.  God spoke to Satan directly in Job.   We are speaking of his origins. 

And as far as 2 Corinthians 11:14 speaking of Satan transformed into an angel of light if you look at the Greek the word transformed is NT:3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo); from NT:3326 and a derivative of NT:4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation):  Is not what my point is that Satan has deceived or disguised God's people that He is an Angel of light. 

Sorry I did not mean to ignore Job 1:6, and do not agree with you that the Son's of God are angel; instead they are men.  The Word God their in the Hebrew is Elohim which is used all though scripture. 

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

Psalm 82
1   God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little "g

if the phrase "sons of God" always just refers to men...

- then why was the Earth totally inundated and mankind was destroyed for simple sin?  Genesis 6:9 refers to Noah's generations as being perfect.  Does this mean Noah was perfect (sinless)?  Absolutely not!  But the Hebrew word "tamiym" is also the word used to denote sacrificial lambs "without blemish" elsewhere in the bible.  This word doesn't refer to their spiritual standing before God obviously... it refers to physical attributes  Why did Israel have to commit genocide on Canaan for simple sin?  It makes no sense that God would take such drastic measures against sin.  Look at Sodom... remember how the male inhabitants wanted to copulate with the angels that came to take Lot out?  Interesting... it all begins connecting together once you wrap your mind around it.

- Why does the book of Enoch referenced by the inpspired writer Jude say the "sons of God" are angels?  Why was the book of Enoch a generally accepted part of the bible until RCC times?  It was the traditional position of both early Christians and Jews that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were angels.

- Sons of god can obviously refer to men in an adoptive sense.  It can not be a matter of fact sense.  In the bible its quite clear that we become sons of God through the sacrifice of the one pure lamb Jesus Christ.  If you read the context of every single place you see sons of god refer to man its always talking about God's adoption of us as spiritual children.  Genesis 6 stands out like a sore thumb if you try to read men into that description.  Especially considering that "son of man" is used frequently in the Old Testament to refer to mankind.

- and the most important question, why if the sons of god were mere men were their offspring giants?  Last time I checked extremely wicked people copulating don't produce children who invariably grow into 12+ foot adults! (see Og of Bashan, Goliath, etc. or the Canaanites who make the Israelites look like grasshoppers).

but this isn't a thread about whether or not the sons of God were men or angels, so I'll begin another thread on this topic with a paper I wrote up a while back.  If you wish to respond to any of these points please do so there.

Benoni posted

QuoteHow does Luke 10:18 speak of the origin of Satan; it merely says he fell from heaven?

It gives me some clues... I don't know many men who've fallen from heaven!

Benoni posted

QuoteAnd as far as 2 Corinthians 11:14 speaking of Satan transformed into an angel of light if you look at the Greek the word transformed is NT:3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo); from NT:3326 and a derivative of NT:4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation):  Is not what my point is that Satan has deceived or disguised God's people that He is an Angel of light. 

The question is is if Satan is an angel or a man.  Why does Paul even place "angelos" in his description.  Do you ever see Paul describing a Judaizer, false teacher, or sinner who tries to mask their identity as an "angelos of light" in any shape form or fashion?  I'll admit that I might call my own child an angel knowing that he certainly isn't one of that group of God's creations... so this evidence is circumstantial, but if you place it with the rest I think it forms a pretty nice case.

Benoni posted

QuoteSorry I did not mean to ignore Job 1:6, and do not agree with you that the Son's of God are angel; instead they are men.  The Word God their in the Hebrew is Elohim which is used all though scripture.

I really don't have much else to say about this subject.... if you believe that the sons of God in Job 1:6 were men.... I can't even fathom that.  Nowhere in the bible does it ever say that men were in the prescence of God directly.  And if you say Job 1:6 alone is the reference... sorry that doesn't work.  Thats circular logic.

Not to say one way or another regarding Satan's origins or whether he was an angel, but I believe the Greek behind Luke 10:18 doesn't support any particular argument regarding those issues.

Luke 10:17-20.
The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"  And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.  Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.  Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." ESV

The imperfect tense would have Jesus saying that He was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning (check the NASB), or better yet, "I have been watching...".  I believe in this context He is referring to the casting out of demons.  Jesus was watching Satan falling from his authority over others due to the gift given to the apostles.  Heaven in this context is being used figuratively of God given authority.

Has anyone brought up these verses?

QuoteRev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Now I know it doesn't directly refer to Satan as an angel, but it doesn't refer to Michael as an angel either.... but regardless he was in heaven and he was cast out.

Quote from: Cliftyman on Tue Aug 14, 2007 - 13:17:03
Has anyone brought up these verses?

QuoteRev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Now I know it doesn't directly refer to Satan as an angel, but it doesn't refer to Michael as an angel either.... but regardless he was in heaven and he was cast out.

Cliftyman,

Read the context (look at the events in the whole chapter).  When would you say this took place?

QuoteCliftyman,

Read the context (look at the events in the whole chapter).  When would you say this took place?

I wish I could say... some of it appears it could have taken place before Jesus's birth, but some of it doesn't appear to fit in well with history before or after that event....

Cliftyman,

If I am understanding the events described in Revelation 12 correctly, then I would have to say that this throwing down of Satan out of heaven took place after Christ was born and resurrected (caught up to God and His throne).

After Satan was thrown down, salvation was proclaimed.

Interesting subject.  It has been known to be argued that Satan was the outcome of keeping the lowly classes in order.  threaten them with hell and the devil if they do not do their work.... Fire and brimstone sermons....
But Satan existed before this era, he must have done for the people of this time to use it against the the lowly classes.
Origin of Satan, right back to Adam and Eve when the serpant told Adam about the Apple!  So probably before Adam and Eve since God told them not to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree.  Concept of forbidden. Rule. if you break the rule then you have sinned. if you have sinned, Satan must be prevailent for the sin to take place in the very early days of earth.  So for me the origins of Satan dates back to the week that God created the Earth.

Who knows if it was weeks, days, months, ages or what ever time God ordained; Satan is limited to what God ordains and no more.

Quote from: chandrus on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 21:15:06
Your thoughts.

God.

Quote from: spurly on Sat Aug 18, 2007 - 09:51:48

Quote from: chandrus on Mon Jul 23, 2007 - 21:15:06
Your thoughts.

God.

Col 1:14  His Son paid the price to free us, which means that our sins are forgiven.
Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16  He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.
Col 1:17  He existed before everything and holds everything together.

FTL

We really only have 3 options on Satan's origin right?

1 - God created him
2 - He existed
3 - something/someone else created him

Since I think option 2 and 3 are nearly blasphemous... I'd have to go with 1, then we have question 1A, what is Satan...

1 - Angel (angelic host)
2 - Man
3 - part of God
4 - other

I think its pretty obvious that Satan isn't a man since I've never heard of a man that could be in God's prescence with the angelic host, or that could go through space and time like Satan or live practically as long as recorded history has been recorded like Satan, I think it would be blasphemous to say Satan existed as part of the godhead and other is nothing more than speculation.  Personally I think the most logical option would be #1.

2Co 11:14  And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

I agree clifty.

FTL