Christian Forums

Quote from: CSloan on Tue Aug 14, 2007 - 13:24:00
Chick tracts rule.

I totally agree! Chick tracts inform people of what is going on in society. He evangelises the need for a saviour, but also exposes the tactics of the adversary against the gospel. He exposes how witchcraft, human secularism, occultism are rampant these days and the strategies Satan uses to devour the youth. We need to be aware of these things for they are reality. We just can't ignore what is going on. God doesn't want His people being asleep. I love how Jack Chick Ministires exposes the devices of Satan.

Umm.... wait a minute...  IF that is not a statue of Mary those peoples are bowing to... Whom is it?

Mary, the mother of Jesus is who they say is the queen of Heaven

According to this simple statement...

''Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear thee words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion, and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to the most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotton Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard."

And if that ain't worship.. I'll eat my hat! 

But still... Let me repeat...

Then why isn't someone who is in an "OFFICIAL" position, teaching it and calling it sin?  Why don't we hear them speaking to it?

It's rediculous that they are standing by and watching HALF of their faithful participate in false worship and sin. Doesn't anyone care enough to go into the Parish's and speak to this... NO.. they worry more about being "apologetics" to those of us who are NOT worshipping idols and placing "PEOPLE" in the place that ONLY the Father, Son and Holy Spirit hold.

If I saw my child on their knees praying to a door, or a window, or a cement person, I'd speak the heck up!  I'd straigthen that out right now.  I'd care enough to do something more than call them "BAD".  Dagnabbit! 

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:00:17
Umm.... wait a minute...  IF that is not a statue of Mary those peoples are bowing to... Whom is it?

Do some research about who the queen of heaven is, I trust you'll find out soon enough.

Well, they BELIEVE it is Mary... In 1954 Pope Pius XII declared Mary the Official.. "OFFICIAL" Queen of Heaven. 

How come he didn't know what the Church "officially" teaches. You would think as Pope he would know better. Or at least studied the Catechism.

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:00:17
Umm.... wait a minute...  IF that is not a statue of Mary those peoples are bowing to... Whom is it?

Mary, the mother of Jesus is who they say is the queen of Heaven

According to this simple statement...

''Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear thee words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion, and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to the most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotton Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard."

And if that ain't worship.. I'll eat my hat! 

Concerning the "queen of heaven,"  this site explains how it is pure idolatry and occultic. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/queen_of_heaven.htm

And in 1964, Pope Paul VI declared she was "exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe"

I would have hoped one of the Popes would have read the Catechism and told someone about this wrong doctrine by now.  If they cared.

OKAY  Jman... Can SOMEONE tell me why the "GOOD" Catholics are not out there explaining to the "BAD" Catholics that they need to do the right thing and stop this Mary worship?

If SOMEONE in my church was participating in open sin, I would.  What good does it do to sit around and call them bad, if you are going to just watch them go down the slippery slope into idol worship? 

This is what Wikipedia says about it...  "Queen of Heaven (Latin Regina Caeli) is one of a number of titles used particularly in the Roman Catholic Church for Mary, the mother of Jesus. "-

Quote from: James Rondon on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 00:42:46

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 00:38:06
"Marian devotions"....  Excuse me, but wouldn't this be Mary Worship? 

Why would anyone need time devoted to Mary if she is not part of the God head to begin with.

And I have seen the "Queen of Heaven" prayer.  I'm not ignorant either. So, its not neccessary to speak to me as though I am.

I'm sorry most of your church or religion doesn't know what the rest of them are doing, and many are teaching something different than the rest are learning. But, that is not my fault.

My word says that Jesus is the Same... yesterday, today and forever. Maybe if you all didn't keep changing up your gospel, it wouldn't be so confusing to the rest of us.

Why are you calling her the bad Catholic? Maybe you are the bad one?  She seems to be doing in faith what she was taught, as was everyone in her Parish.  Why is your religion so split on these Marian matters anyway?  I saw the statement the Pope (John Paul) made about it.  In one breath he claimed a year of being more devoted to Mary, but explained he stopped short of proclaiming her part of "Redeption" as "HALF" of the church wanted.

Half of your religion believes that Mary is part of the dedemption.  I would think you would know that. It's been in full discussion and there has been sides taken on the issue for years.  Years.

A picture is worth a thousand words:

These "bad" folks seem to be doing some things that those rascally Israelites got in trouble with God.

God's will be done in all things.

I find bits and pieces of truth even in the most erroneous of things presented by man.

The Spirit speaks and man at times does the bidding in the midst of his own conjuring.

We who walk in the Spirit must discern. The Bible says all who confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh has the Spirit of God.

ollie

Holy Mary mother of god.

Only the queen of heaven could beget a god, so in the real beginning Mary beget god?

Just wondering.

FTL

Quote from: the J Man on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:11:07Concerning the "queen of heaven,"  this site explains how it is pure idolatry and occultic. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/queen_of_heaven.htm

Nice site, I particularly like the music.

Heres a few more that connect the pagan worship of the catholics to their sources:

Isis: "Queen of Heaven"
Ashtoreth The Queen of Heaven
Pagan Sun Worship and Catholicism The Sunburst Image, the Queen of Heaven and Baal.

Quote from: CSloan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 12:34:21

Quote from: the J Man on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:11:07Concerning the "queen of heaven,"  this site explains how it is pure idolatry and occultic. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/queen_of_heaven.htm

Nice site, I particularly like the music.

Heres a few more that connect the pagan worship of the catholics to their sources:

Isis: "Queen of Heaven"
Ashtoreth The Queen of Heaven
Pagan Sun Worship and Catholicism The Sunburst Image, the Queen of Heaven and Baal.

CSloan, those arguments are not based upon arguments that reputable scholars would recognize as having much basis in fact (I notice Teichrib didn't list any sources to back up his assertions). Its simply more anti-Catholic propaganda. I don't agree with Catholic veneration of Mary either, but to say they borrowed such veneration from pagan religions is to betray a lack of knowledge of how Catholic doctrine was actually formed and evolved through the centuries. On a superficial level there may seem to be similarities, but when these are studied in detail they vanish. There are good books-many written by non-Catholic scholars-that chart the evolution of the Catholic Churchs teaching on Mary and the saints.

Pax.

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 12:56:18I don't agree with Catholic veneration of Mary either, but to say they borrowed such veneration from pagan religions is to betray a lack of knowledge of how Catholic doctrine was actually formed and evolved through the centuries. On a superficial level there may seem to be similarities, but when these are studied in detail they vanish.

I'm sure eggs, ducks and rabbits have a few similarities with the resurrection, that just needs to be studied in detail. Then the similarities will just vanish away...

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 12:56:18

Quote from: CSloan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 12:34:21

Quote from: the J Man on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:11:07Concerning the "queen of heaven,"  this site explains how it is pure idolatry and occultic. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/queen_of_heaven.htm

Nice site, I particularly like the music.

Heres a few more that connect the pagan worship of the catholics to their sources:

Isis: "Queen of Heaven"
Ashtoreth The Queen of Heaven
Pagan Sun Worship and Catholicism The Sunburst Image, the Queen of Heaven and Baal.

CSloan, those arguments are not based upon arguments that reputable scholars would recognize as having much basis in fact (I notice Teichrib didn't list any sources to back up his assertions). Its simply more anti-Catholic propaganda. I don't agree with Catholic veneration of Mary either, but to say they borrowed such veneration from pagan religions is to betray a lack of knowledge of how Catholic doctrine was actually formed and evolved through the centuries. On a superficial level there may seem to be similarities, but when these are studied in detail they vanish. There are good books-many written by non-Catholic scholars-that chart the evolution of the Catholic Churchs teaching on Mary and the saints.

Pax.

"But when these are studied in detail, they vanish"??  Or is is more like, when studied in detail, more excuses, and and substitutions pop up?  When studied in detail and compared with the WORD OF GOD, the change up the meaning to suit the doctrine.

You don't walk through life related to half the Catholics in America and not notice a pattern.  I pay attention, I take notes.

The keep changing things, declaring things, and moving things around so that by the slight of the eye, they can explain away and excuse certain things actually forbidden in scripture...

"Jesus, THE SAME... Yesterday, Today, and Forever.) - The Word.

But, still I want an answer to my question, if these "Mary" worshippers have infiltrated the Catholic Church, and it wrong, WHY OH WHY isn't someone making it a mission to teach them truth and to separate them from this pagan ritual BEFORE the LORD returns.

The "GOOD" Catholics get very upset when we point out there is idol worship in the church.  THey demand we read the Catechism and see it's wrong.. Which btw, we have already noted by the word of God, and we don't need the Catechism to see that, but yet... while calling those Catholics "BAD" Catholics, they have not yet developed a Sunday School teaching, or a Catholic School class to teach those doing it to stop?? 

I want a REAL answer to that.  WHY DON'T THE GOOD CATHOLICS CARE ENOUGH TO TEACH THE TRUTH TO THE BAD CATHOLICS??   Where is the dogma discounting all of this Mary worship and the idols and statues in the church? Why is no one reaching them?  Who is warning them that Idol worship is sin?  Maybe, just maybe, if the C Church had not taken that commandment out of the BIG TEN... those people who are BAD could have been good too?? 

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:17:25
OKAY  Jman... Can SOMEONE tell me why the "GOOD" Catholics are not out there explaining to the "BAD" Catholics that they need to do the right thing and stop this Mary worship?

 

Perhaps the leadership of the RCC is more into idol worship than anyone else there? Former Jesuit priest Alberto Rivera exposes all that. Those who run things in the RCC are in league with Satan. They aren't even doing it out of ignorance.

Quote from: CSloan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 12:34:21

Quote from: the J Man on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:11:07Concerning the "queen of heaven,"  this site explains how it is pure idolatry and occultic. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/queen_of_heaven.htm

Nice site, I particularly like the music.

Heres a few more that connect the pagan worship of the catholics to their sources:

Isis: "Queen of Heaven"
Ashtoreth The Queen of Heaven
Pagan Sun Worship and Catholicism The Sunburst Image, the Queen of Heaven and Baal.

Each of these sites explain the ocucltism involved in "the queen of heaven." So many are being deceived through catholicism which mixes christianity with paganism.

Quote from: the J Man on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 15:54:57

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:17:25
OKAY  Jman... Can SOMEONE tell me why the "GOOD" Catholics are not out there explaining to the "BAD" Catholics that they need to do the right thing and stop this Mary worship?

 

Perhaps the leadership of the RCC is more into idol worship than anyone else there? Former Jesuit priest Alberto Rivera exposes all that. Those who run things in the RCC are in league with Satan. They aren't even doing it out of ignorance.

Facts don't matter.  Truth doesn't matter.  Who cares if a falsehood has been exposed; I'll keep repeating it anyway.

And no, I'm not talking about those Awful Papists, either.

Kengsington, all I'm saying is that to find out what the RCC officially teaches you need to read its own documents, esp. the Catechism. Are there Catholics who are ignorant of and abuse their faith? Of course. I know lots of Protestants who fit that desription as well.

The "good" Catholics do teach the difference between veneration and worship; they do teach that God alone should be worshiped. But the Magisterium can't police the thoughts and actions of every Catholic in the world and force them to be orthodox, can they? And just because a few Catholics go to extremes does this mean they all do? Of course not!

We Protestants would be mad if Catholics stereotyped us the way we do them. Why's it okay and even necessary for them to be fair towards us, but unnecessary for us to be fair towards them? It's be like saying that before the collapse of the Soviet Union all Russians were goose-stepping, KGB informing Communists, or that all white Southerners are racist good o'l boys. Or that all Democrats are pro-choice radical feminists. None of these is true.

Pax.

Quote from: marc on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 16:08:00

Quote from: the J Man on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 15:54:57

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:17:25
OKAY  Jman... Can SOMEONE tell me why the "GOOD" Catholics are not out there explaining to the "BAD" Catholics that they need to do the right thing and stop this Mary worship?

 

Perhaps the leadership of the RCC is more into idol worship than anyone else there? Former Jesuit priest Alberto Rivera exposes all that. Those who run things in the RCC are in league with Satan. They aren't even doing it out of ignorance.

Facts don't matter.  Truth doesn't matter.  Who cares if a falsehood has been exposed; I'll keep repeating it anyway.

And no, I'm not talking about those Awful Papists, either.

Alberto Rivera is not the issue here, the practices of idoltry are.

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 16:17:03
Kengsington, all I'm saying is that to find out what the RCC officially teaches you need to read its own documents, esp. the Catechism. Are there Catholics who are ignorant of and abuse their faith? Of course. I know lots of Protestants who fit that desription as well.

The "good" Catholics do teach the difference between veneration and worship; they do teach that God alone should be worshiped. But the Magisterium can't police the thoughts and actions of every Catholic in the world and force them to be orthodox, can they? does this mean they all do? Of course not!

We Protestants would be mad if Catholics stereotyped us the way we do them. Why's it okay and even necessary for them to be fair towards us, but unnecessary for us to be fair towards them? It's be like saying that before the collapse of the Soviet Union all Russians were goose-stepping, KGB informing Communists, or that all white Southerners are racist good o'l boys. Or that all Democrats are pro-choice radical feminists. None of these is true.

Pax.

And neither is saying... And just because a few Catholics go to extremes

The word "FEW" is misleading. Actually.   The church itself spoke to it being "Half" of the religion in the 90's.  I think that is more than a few.  Don't you?

BTW... If I spoke to my kids, you can get a FEW cookies and some milk... That would mean two or three....

I'm convinced that there is more than a "FEW" who are worshipping Mary.  When the CC calls it a "split" in the church on the Marian doctrine... a few doesn't come to mind.

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 16:17:03
Kengsington, all I'm saying is that to find out what the RCC officially teaches you need to read its own documents, esp. the Catechism. Are there Catholics who are ignorant of and abuse their faith? Of course. I know lots of Protestants who fit that desription as well.

The "good" Catholics do teach the difference between veneration and worship; they do teach that God alone should be worshiped. But the Magisterium can't police the thoughts and actions of every Catholic in the world and force them to be orthodox, can they? And just because a few Catholics go to extremes does this mean they all do? Of course not!

We Protestants would be mad if Catholics stereotyped us the way we do them. Why's it okay and even necessary for them to be fair towards us, but unnecessary for us to be fair towards them? It's be like saying that before the collapse of the Soviet Union all Russians were goose-stepping, KGB informing Communists, or that all white Southerners are racist good o'l boys. Or that all Democrats are pro-choice radical feminists. None of these is true.

Pax.

Lee, your stance grieves me to hear.

It's almost like you are defending a sect that promotes idolatry, invoking "veneration" as if its some kind of defense against their practices of worship. Idoltry is idoltry in the eyes of God, and the Bible is clear.

Exd 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Why you have taken this position is astonishing to me.

Lee, you must admit that to a certain extent, Kensington has a point.  Where were the knowledgable priests and teachers when the picture James shared in post #65 was taken?  Why didn't they rush out and immediately tell those people not to worship a statue?  If this had happened at your church [perhaps substituting a cross for the statue] would you have just shrugged and gone about your business?

Quote from: CSloan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 17:58:56

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 16:17:03
Kengsington, all I'm saying is that to find out what the RCC officially teaches you need to read its own documents, esp. the Catechism. Are there Catholics who are ignorant of and abuse their faith? Of course. I know lots of Protestants who fit that desription as well.

The "good" Catholics do teach the difference between veneration and worship; they do teach that God alone should be worshiped. But the Magisterium can't police the thoughts and actions of every Catholic in the world and force them to be orthodox, can they? And just because a few Catholics go to extremes does this mean they all do? Of course not!

We Protestants would be mad if Catholics stereotyped us the way we do them. Why's it okay and even necessary for them to be fair towards us, but unnecessary for us to be fair towards them? It's be like saying that before the collapse of the Soviet Union all Russians were goose-stepping, KGB informing Communists, or that all white Southerners are racist good o'l boys. Or that all Democrats are pro-choice radical feminists. None of these is true.

Pax.

Lee, your stance grieves me to hear.

It's almost like you are defending a sect that promotes idolatry, invoking "veneration" as if its some kind of defense against their practices of worship. Idoltry is idoltry in the eyes of God, and the Bible is clear.

Exd 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Why you have taken this position is astonishing to me.

I'm not a Catholic, nor do I agree with the Catholic doctrine of the veneration of saints. But I'm trying to be fair to Catholics. I've read everything I can on the formation of Catholic doctrine, including the veneration of saints, rather than just parrot back what someone like Chick or a CoC minister told me they believed. I've read what Catholic theologians have written and what non-biased non-Catholics have written. Consequently, I can say with some reasonable certainty that the whole issue is way more complex than you're making it out to be.

Yes, I believe there ARE some Catholics who for all practical purposes worship Mary, but NO, this isn't the Churches actual teaching.

As for James' photo, it's of Catholics kneeling before a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Protestants automatically equate that with "worship"-but does it automatically connote worship to a pious Catholic? No. If I knelt down in front of Queen Elizabeth II would that automatically mean I was worshiping her? Or might it be nothing more than my paying honor and respect to her? If I kneel down in front of my grandmother's gravesite at the cemetery, and someone saw me, they might think I was worshiping her. But I'm not-I'm paying honor and respect to a departed loved one. When Catholics kneel they are paying honor and respect to the Mother of Jesus; they may also be praying to Mary that she will peitition Christ on their behalf-because Catholic theology teaches that Mary is ALWAYS subordinate to God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Also, God through Mary or another saint, might perform some type of miracle, but the honor goes to God and not the saint in question. Yes, sometimes people leave God out of the equation, but it isn't the Churches fault every single time this happens.

So I'm NOT defending the veneration of saints, only trying to be fair and precise as to what Catholics actually believe about it.

Pax.

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Thu Aug 16, 2007 - 09:32:08

Quote from: CSloan on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 17:58:56

Quote from: Lee Freeman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 16:17:03
Kengsington, all I'm saying is that to find out what the RCC officially teaches you need to read its own documents, esp. the Catechism. Are there Catholics who are ignorant of and abuse their faith? Of course. I know lots of Protestants who fit that desription as well.

The "good" Catholics do teach the difference between veneration and worship; they do teach that God alone should be worshiped. But the Magisterium can't police the thoughts and actions of every Catholic in the world and force them to be orthodox, can they? And just because a few Catholics go to extremes does this mean they all do? Of course not!

We Protestants would be mad if Catholics stereotyped us the way we do them. Why's it okay and even necessary for them to be fair towards us, but unnecessary for us to be fair towards them? It's be like saying that before the collapse of the Soviet Union all Russians were goose-stepping, KGB informing Communists, or that all white Southerners are racist good o'l boys. Or that all Democrats are pro-choice radical feminists. None of these is true.

Pax.

Lee, your stance grieves me to hear.

It's almost like you are defending a sect that promotes idolatry, invoking "veneration" as if its some kind of defense against their practices of worship. Idoltry is idoltry in the eyes of God, and the Bible is clear.

Exd 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Why you have taken this position is astonishing to me.

I'm not a Catholic, nor do I agree with the Catholic doctrine of the veneration of saints. But I'm trying to be fair to Catholics. I've read everything I can on the formation of Catholic doctrine, including the veneration of saints, rather than just parrot back what someone like Chick or a CoC minister told me they believed. I've read what Catholic theologians have written and what non-biased non-Catholics have written. Consequently, I can say with some reasonable certainty that the whole issue is way more complex than you're making it out to be.

Yes, I believe there ARE some Catholics who for all practical purposes worship Mary, but NO, this isn't the Churches actual teaching.

As for James' photo, it's of Catholics kneeling before a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Protestants automatically equate that with "worship"-but does it automatically connote worship to a pious Catholic? No. If I knelt down in front of Queen Elizabeth II would that automatically mean I was worshiping her? Or might it be nothing more than my paying honor and respect to her? If I kneel down in front of my grandmother's gravesite at the cemetery, and someone saw me, they might think I was worshiping her. But I'm not-I'm paying honor and respect to a departed loved one. When Catholics kneel they are paying honor and respect to the Mother of Jesus; they may also be praying to Mary that she will peitition Christ on their behalf-because Catholic theology teaches that Mary is ALWAYS subordinate to God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Also, God through Mary or another saint, might perform some type of miracle, but the honor goes to God and not the saint in question. Yes, sometimes people leave God out of the equation, but it isn't the Churches fault every single time this happens.

So I'm NOT defending the veneration of saints, only trying to be fair and precise as to what Catholics actually believe about it.

Pax.

Lee Freeman,

How can someone be fair about practices that the Bible condemns?

You know what I always noticed in the Old Testament concerning idolatry? Idolaters never called it idolatry, only The Almighty did.

But how you dismiss bowing before a graven image by comparing it to knelling before a Queen, or your Grandma's grave is very catholic in practice.

You claim your not defending these practices, but thats exactly what your doing.

The Bible condemns worshiping "graven images" as if those images were divine or the divine inhabited them. As I keep telling you, orthodox Catholics don't worship Mary nor do they believe she's divine. You should read some Catholic writings on veneration of saints before you make such sweeping judgments about the practice. Then, disagree all you want with the practice, as I do, just be fair and precise as to what Catholics really teach and believe about it.

Pax.

I really don't think I need to read their justifications for their idolarty to determine if its wrong, but what I find interesting is you seem to have come to a conclusion that I haven't. Just to let you know, my whole family is involved in this organization, so I needn't look much further for exposure to these doctrines.

But just to set your mind at ease, I have read my share of their lies. I'm not convinced.

From New Advent's "Beatification and Canonization":

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

The true origin of canonization and beatification must be sought in the Catholic doctrine of the worship (cultus), invocation, and intercession of the saints. As was taught by St. Augustine (Quaest. in Heptateuch., lib. II, n. 94; Contra Faustum, lib. XX, xxi), Catholics, while giving to God alone adoration strictly so-called, honour the saints because of the Divine supernatural gifts which have earned them eternal life, and through which they reign with God in the heavenly fatherland as His chosen friends and faithful servants. In other words, Catholics honour God in His saints as the loving distributor of supernatural gifts. The worship of latria (latreia), or strict adoration, is given to God alone; the worship of dulia (douleia), or honour and humble reverence, is paid the saints; the worship of hyperdulia (hyperdouleia), a higher form of dulia, belongs, on account of her greater excellence, to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Church (Aug., Contra Faustum, XX, xxi, 21; cf. De Civit. Dei, XXII, x) erects her altars to God alone, though in honour and memory of the saints and martyrs. There is Scriptural warrant for such worship in the passages where we are bidden to venerate angels (Exodus 23:20 sqq.; Joshua 5:13 sqq.; Daniel 8:15 sqq.; 10:4 sqq.; Luke 2:9 sqq.; Acts 12:7 sqq.; Revelation 5:11 sqq.; 7:1 sqq.; Matthew 18:10; etc.), whom holy men are not unlike, as sharers of the friendship of God. And if St. Paul beseeches the brethren (Romans 15:30; 2 Corinthians 1:11; Colossians 4:3; Ephesians 6:18-19) to help him by their prayers for him to God, we must with even greater reason maintain that we can be helped by the prayers of the saints, and ask their intercession with humility. If we may beseech those who still live on earth, why not those who live in heaven?

It is objected that the invocation of saints is opposed to the unique mediatorship of Christ Jesus. There is indeed "one mediator of God and man, the man Christ Jesus". But He is our mediator in His quality of our common Redeemer; He is not our sole intercessor nor advocate, nor our sole mediator by way of supplication. In the eleventh session of the Council of Chalcedon (451) we find the Fathers exclaiming, "Flavianus lives after death! May the Martyr pray for us!" If we accept this doctrine of the worship of the saints, of which there are innumerable evidences in the writings of the Fathers and the liturgies of the Eastern and Western Churches, we shall not wonder at the loving care with which the Church committed to writing the sufferings of the early martyrs, sent these accounts from one gathering of the faithful to another, and promoted the veneration of the martyrs.


Pax.

Lee Freeman,

I don't need more of their propaganda justifying their practices while they turn around and do the opposite. I understand what they are doing, they are playing the games of logical fallices and smokescreens simply to justify their false doctrines. Much like the Pharisees of Jesus time, interestingly enough.

Don't tell me you buy into this trash?

Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

By your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

Quote from: kensington on Wed Aug 15, 2007 - 01:25:30
This is what Wikipedia says about it...  "Queen of Heaven (Latin Regina Caeli) is one of a number of titles used particularly in the Roman Catholic Church for Mary, the mother of Jesus. "-

Oh brother. 

In the Davidic Kingdom, the "Queen" was the mother of the king.

Who is the mother of our Savior and King? Mary...hence, she is the queen.

It's really not rocket science.

That does not mean we believe she is on equal footing with God. Protestants tend to have an "on/off" switch for holiness...you're either a Christian/holy or you're not. No spectrum of holiness exists for them, all Christians are equal, to "raise" one above the other is seen as bad, because to them, only two levels exist...Christian, and Deity. If they see us raising anyone above other Christians, they automatically think we're raising them to the level of Deity. Well, think that all you want, but the simple fact is, we're not.

For Catholics, we believe there is a spectrum there, there are lots of saints who are holier than I am, who provide good examples, who followed Christ and point to Him and encourage us to follow Christ as well. Mary is the epitome of how we should follow Christ. "Be it done to me according to your will." This is what we should all be saying to God. We honor her just as the scriptures say she would be honored, "all nations will call you blessed."

Just because YOU have an "on/off switch" idea of holiness doesn't mean we do. We can honor someone as holy without honoring them as deity, completely different things for us.

By the way, thank you, Lee, for your fairness and attempts at understanding what we believe rather than just believing anything a chick tract tells you we believe. It's very refreshing to see such honesty and willingness to listen. I appreciate it!

Quote from: kensington on Thu Aug 16, 2007 - 11:57:35
Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

We ask saints to pray for us, just like we ask family members to pray for us. Ever asked a friend or family member to pray for you? Watch out, you've got a mediator other than Jesus, then, better repent! And no more asking family and friends to pray for you, only Jesus is allowed since he's the one and only mediator.

QuoteBy your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

You say Jesus is the ONLY mediator...but then ask family and friends to pray for you...what a contradiction! Get the indication?