Christian Forums

Quote from: Barabbas on Sat Sep 22, 2007 - 21:05:25
Hi Renee,  Did you ever see the movie "Jesus Camp"?   If you did - did you think it was a fair portrayal of penticostal evangelicals?

I saw bits and pieces.  Sorry but that just looked like a cult to me.

I found myself strangely attracted yet repulsed by the movie,  attracted to the obvious zeal and passion that the followers had, yet repulsed by what seemed to me a manipulation of young children's minds.

Quote from: Barabbas on Sun Sep 23, 2007 - 10:39:15
I found myself strangely attracted yet repulsed by the movie,  attracted to the obvious zeal and passion that the followers had, yet repulsed by what seemed to me a manipulation of young children's minds.

yep

I have no problem with christians teaching their children bout christ. We are teaching our boy bout Jesus. But man there is such a thing as let them be kids while your teaching them.

OP question,

Renee and other Pentacostals,

Do you believe in the Trinity?   I know that some pentacostals do and others do not.
Can you tell me which Pentacostals do and which do not?

For those who reject the Trinity, why do they do so? 

Quote from: trifecta on Sun Sep 23, 2007 - 23:18:57
OP question,

Renee and other Pentacostals,

Do you believe in the Trinity?   I know that some pentacostals do and others do not.
Can you tell me which Pentacostals do and which do not?

For those who reject the Trinity, why do they do so? 

Hello "trifecta", and how are you?

Good question(s) ... Amen?

Now, I'm not Pentecostal but ... here's how I'm led.

As with Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals reject the historic biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

They teach that Jesus IS the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (no distinction of Persons).

In Oneness theology God exists as a unipersonal monad, that temporarily manifested as the "modes," "roles," or "offices" of the "Father," the "Son," or the "Holy Spirit" at different times. The unipersonal deity of  Oneness theology lives in absolute solitude. Hence they deny that God has revealed Himself in three distinct coequal, coeternal, and coexistent Persons. In the end, their theology is decidedly unitarian, which denies the Person Jesus Christ as revealed in Scripture (e.g. Jesus "IS

Quote from: Harold on Sat Sep 15, 2007 - 14:24:53
The Assembly of God Pentecostals Baptize in the Mat 28:19 formula. That would include most of the TBN Pentecostals. T.D. Jakes would be Jesus name only.

Apostolic Pentecostals Baptize in the name of Jesus only. Acts 2:38, and 4:12.

FTL

Hello Harold,

Interesting observation ... Amen?  But to my knowledge, T.D. Jakes is not a "TBN Apostolic Pentecostal".

Quote from: bvaug on Fri Sep 14, 2007 - 19:37:45
The History of your beginning? Just what movement did your church come from. What set your church at difference than others?

I'm led that there are four waves of Pentecostalism and they are:

1. The "Classical Pentecostal Movement" started in 1901 by Parham and Seymour has now over 11,000 pentecostal denominations throughout the world.

2. The "Neo-Pentecostal" movement started in 1960 in Van Nuys, California, under Dennis Bennett, Rector of St Marks Episcopal (Anglican) Church. In ten years it spread to all major Protestant families of the world, reaching a total of 55 million people by 1990.

3. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement started in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in 1967 among students and faculty of DuQuesne University, and by 19993 it has touched the lives of over 100 million Catholics in over 238 nations.

4. The Evangelicals started in 1981 at Fuller Theological Seminary with John Wimber. By 1990, 33 millions in the world were moving in signs and wonders, though they disdain labels such as "Pentecostal" and "charismatic".

Gracious 

Quote from: trifecta on Sun Sep 23, 2007 - 23:18:57
OP question,

Renee and other Pentacostals,

Do you believe in the Trinity?   I know that some pentacostals do and others do not.
Can you tell me which Pentacostals do and which do not?

For those who reject the Trinity, why do they do so? 

Gracious was correct. It is the oneness, apostolic and unity or united pentecostal sect that are unitaritan or reject the trinity.

I was raised Assemblies of God which are trinitarian presently we are with the Pentecostal Church of God which is also trinitarian.

Quote from: Gracious on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 02:47:16

Quote from: Harold on Sat Sep 15, 2007 - 14:24:53
The Assembly of God Pentecostals Baptize in the Mat 28:19 formula. That would include most of the TBN Pentecostals. T.D. Jakes would be Jesus name only.

Apostolic Pentecostals Baptize in the name of Jesus only. Acts 2:38, and 4:12.

FTL

Hello Harold,

Interesting observation ... Amen?  But to my knowledge, T.D. Jakes is not a "TBN Apostolic Pentecostal".

T D Jakes came out of the UPC a oneness pentecostal fellowship. He still explains the trinity the same as they do. One caveat I have not searched out his web site lately.

QuoteAlister McGrath offered some insight pertaining to the word persons in reference to the Trinity that modern Oneness believers completely agree with:

The word "person" has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the "threefoldness of God." When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word "person" with a different meaning. The word "person" originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor’s face mask-and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play.
By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. … Confusing the word "person" inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee….49
Alister E. McGrath, Studies in Doctrine (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1987)

The complete article can be read at this location.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/trinoneness.htm

Modern day oneness Pentecostals are not modalists. They are not as with the JW's. The above quote from a trinitarian would sound the same in a Oneness Fellowship.

The two largest groups in the Pentecostal churches are the UPC (Oneness) and The Assemblies of God (Trinitarian) they split over their differing views. Most Pentecostals that are apostolic are oneness in theology.

FTL

Quote from: zoonance on Sat Sep 22, 2007 - 17:37:16
At the moment, I would settle for being papercut by the Spirit.     Just a glimpse and move beyond the rhetoric.

Do you believe the Spirit can give you a paper cut, are you asking God to give you a paper cut?

Get the analogy?

FTL

Posted by: Harold  Posted on: Today at 11:46:11 AM

Quote"...Modern day oneness Pentecostals are not modalists. They are not as with the JW's. The above quote from a trinitarian would sound the same in a Oneness Fellowship...

Let us also not forget that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian they are a cult.

Quote from: Gracious on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 16:10:59
Posted by: Harold  Posted on: Today at 11:46:11 AM

Quote"...Modern day oneness Pentecostals are not modalists. They are not as with the JW's. The above quote from a trinitarian would sound the same in a Oneness Fellowship...

Quote from: Harold on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 17:10:21

Quote from: Gracious on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 16:10:59
Posted by: Harold  Posted on: Today at 11:46:11 AM

Quote"...Modern day oneness Pentecostals are not modalists. They are not as with the JW's. The above quote from a trinitarian would sound the same in a Oneness Fellowship...

Exactly, my point.

The CoC is not in any way like the Branch Davidends.

FTL

Quote from: Harold on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 17:21:46
Exactly, my point.

The CoC is not in any way like the Branch Davidends.

FTL

Thats not what you said, you said "CoC, like Branch Davidends are followers of Christ."

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 17:24:00

Quote from: Harold on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 17:21:46
Exactly, my point.

The CoC is not in any way like the Branch Davidends.

FTL

Thats not what you said, you said "CoC, like Branch Davidends are followers of Christ."

Go back and read the post before these, where gracious stated, the Jw's like the Oneness Pentecostals. I am showing to him that they are not alike, by groping diametrically opposed groups. Baptist/Catholic Coc/Branch Davidends. I think I misspelled their name.

FTL

as a staffed leader of a "charismatic", "pentecostal" church, i can without hesitancy state, we have no "doctrine of being slain in the spirit".

and anyone who denies the unquestionable triune nature of god, is a heretic.

as far as why the upc, jesus name, and some apostolic churches have come to this conclusion, i believe it is an attempt to explain a complex god in a simplistic way.

but unfortunately, they became dogmatic on this issue and built the entire emphasis of their doctrine on this solitary point.

there is truth in them, but when they only emphasis one aspect of the truth, they become a cultic organization.

Quote from: saved on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 18:16:15

as far as why the upc, jesus name, and some apostolic churches have come to this conclusion, i believe it is an attempt to explain a complex god in a simplistic way.
 

I think you've just hit on the root of a lot of problems in many sectors of Christianity.

Quote from: saved on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 18:16:15
as a staffed leader of a "charismatic", "pentecostal" church, i can without hesitancy state, we have no "doctrine of being slain in the spirit".

and anyone who denies the unquestionable triune nature of god, is a heretic.

as far as why the upc, jesus name, and some apostolic churches have come to this conclusion, i believe it is an attempt to explain a complex god in a simplistic way.

but unfortunately, they became dogmatic on this issue and built the entire emphasis of their doctrine on this solitary point.

there is truth in them, but when they only emphasis one aspect of the truth, they become a cultic organization.

The UPC has not built their doctrine on any such thing. They are most often attacked on this issue, so they have to defend themselves on this issue.

Heretic according to whom?

I do not belong to a UPC fellowship BTW. Why attack a group, who like you, lift up Jesus Chrsit and Him crucified. As in most cases these issues come down to, "Well I heard."

FTL

Quote from: Harold on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 18:42:49

Quote from: saved on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 18:16:15
as a staffed leader of a "charismatic", "pentecostal" church, i can without hesitancy state, we have no "doctrine of being slain in the spirit".

and anyone who denies the unquestionable triune nature of god, is a heretic.

as far as why the upc, jesus name, and some apostolic churches have come to this conclusion, i believe it is an attempt to explain a complex god in a simplistic way.

but unfortunately, they became dogmatic on this issue and built the entire emphasis of their doctrine on this solitary point.

there is truth in them, but when they only emphasis one aspect of the truth, they become a cultic organization.

The UPC has not built their doctrine on any such thing. They are most often attacked on this issue, so they have to defend themselves on this issue.

Heretic according to whom?

I do not belong to a UPC fellowship BTW. Why attack a group, who like you, lift up Jesus Chrsit and Him crucified. As in most cases these issues come down to, "Well I heard."

FTL

i have not heard, i know!

i will quote a local upc pastor in the following explanation.

as a member of a large "pentecostal" church, we are often invited to several "revivals" and or conventions to either speak or teach.

some of these events are several days long and include other preachers from various churches.

and on many occasions, i have had to sit through a upc pastor's attempt at convincing us, that we are wrong.

we are satanists and have fell for the catholic lie of a three headed god.

one particular upc pastor, as he preached from acts and the account of stephen's murder, got to the point in the scriptures where it tells of stephen looking skyward and seeing jesus with the father.

the pastor stops, leans over the podium, and with conviction states, "but we all know he only saw one" !!!!

so many of our congregation, including our pastor come from this belief system, and most of them will tell you that every message that came from their pulpits at some point would include the idea that only oneness ideas were correct and all other thought was hell bound.

i meet several upc and jesus name folks, and they love god, but only their idea of who god is.

OKAY... is this thread about the "Pentecostal" church?

Or people who are pentecostal in belief as in the day of pentecost?

Charismatic, pentecostal, fundamental evangelical...? 

Cause... I may have posted in the WRONG topic.  I am NOT part of the Pentecostal Church.

I like the Bapticostals actually... Teach the WORD... Lifting hands, praising God, tapping toes during praise...   

Quote from: kensington on Mon Sep 24, 2007 - 22:08:26
OKAY... is this thread about the "Pentecostal" church?

Or people who are pentecostal in belief as in the day of pentecost?

Charismatic, pentecostal, fundamental evangelical...? 

Cause... I may have posted in the WRONG topic.  I am NOT part of the Pentecostal Church.

I like the Bapticostals actually... Teach the WORD... Lifting hands, praising God, tapping toes during praise...   

It is questions about Pentecostals in general, but we have to be name throwers while we are in a discussion.

If a UPC Pastor challenged you to think differently then I guess he did. But as I said I am not UPC, but I have been around a lot of UPC people, I have never heard any of them attack a group. Done with this line of thought.

Back to Pentecostals in general. Bapticostals now that would be interesting.

FTL

OK STOOOOOOOOP! Stop the name calling stop the bickering stop the arguing stop the fighting.

The purpose of this thread was because I saw alot of things being said about what Pentecostal people believe and the most of them was wrong. This is so people can find out what we believe and to stop the accusations.

NOW STOP!!

Now I know why I started my own forum.

Quote from: renee-1 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 - 12:38:49
OK STOOOOOOOOP! Stop the name calling stop the bickering stop the arguing stop the fighting.

The purpose of this thread was because I saw alot of things being said about what Pentecostal people believe and the most of them was wrong. This is so people can find out what we believe and to stop the accusations.

NOW STOP!!

Now I know why I started my own forum.

I agree. Tell me you had your hands on your hips, and you stomped your foot when you wrote this. Sounded like my Mam Maw. 

FTL

Quote from: Harold on Tue Sep 25, 2007 - 17:22:09

Quote from: renee-1 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 - 12:38:49
OK STOOOOOOOOP! Stop the name calling stop the bickering stop the arguing stop the fighting.

The purpose of this thread was because I saw alot of things being said about what Pentecostal people believe and the most of them was wrong. This is so people can find out what we believe and to stop the accusations.

NOW STOP!!

Now I know why I started my own forum.

I agree. Tell me you had your hands on your hips, and you stomped your foot when you wrote this. Sounded like my Mam Maw. 

FTL

ummm How could I have had my hands on my hips and type at the same time?

Quote from: renee-1 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 - 18:03:35

Quote from: Harold on Tue Sep 25, 2007 - 17:22:09

Quote from: renee-1 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 - 12:38:49
OK STOOOOOOOOP! Stop the name calling stop the bickering stop the arguing stop the fighting.

The purpose of this thread was because I saw alot of things being said about what Pentecostal people believe and the most of them was wrong. This is so people can find out what we believe and to stop the accusations.

NOW STOP!!

Now I know why I started my own forum.

I agree. Tell me you had your hands on your hips, and you stomped your foot when you wrote this. Sounded like my Mam Maw. 

FTL

ummm How could I have had my hands on my hips and type at the same time?

Oh, alright you were sitting and just stompped the floor.

FTL

Excellent thread!  When it comes to "teaching classes on how to speak in tongues"  I can't believe that people actually do that.  It is wrong.  That is like trying to teach people how to lay on hands and heal!  All gifts come from our Father in Heaven and He gives to whomever He chooses.  I was given the gift through the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues - I didn't even know what tongues was at the time (as I did not belong to any religious sect) all I know is I received the gift.  It is my personal prayer language and one that is between me and God.  If God asked me to speak in tongues then according to His word - someone would be there to interpret what was being said.

I never attended a "Tongues" class either    but, I
m guessing that its not a required class credit... Cause I speak in tongues. LOL...

God didn't ask permission when he gave it to me, it was just there.   

Do you find yourself starting prayers with your mind, and ending up praying in the Spirit?

I know I do.

FTL

Quote from: Harold on Fri Sep 28, 2007 - 13:33:57
Do you find yourself starting prayers with your mind, and ending up praying in the Spirit?

I know I do.

FTL

No, for me usually, I am actually already praying outloud and my prayer language wells up and I pray.  And my infilling came when I was praising.  I was in the middle of a song, and there it came.  It was a gentle, rush of peace and my language just changed.

  This has been an interesting thread to start out on. I was raised missionary baptist now southern baptist. I also have embraced the gifts of the Spirit. At first with a legalistic outlook. I ended up on my knees asking God to teach me the truth. To erase what I was taught by religion. My journey with the Holy Spirit has been one adventure after another. I did not have to seek long, God poured information to me from every source. My soul hungered for his word like never before.

I have learned a great deal from the Pentecostal. I was so closed minded at first. But God has delivered me from my legalistic views.

You would be surprised how many baptist believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: grace on Sun Oct 07, 2007 - 17:16:30
This has been an interesting thread to start out on. I was raised missionary baptist now southern baptist. I also have embraced the gifts of the Spirit. At first with a legalistic outlook. I ended up on my knees asking God to teach me the truth. To erase what I was taught by religion. My journey with the Holy Spirit has been one adventure after another. I did not have to seek long, God poured information to me from every source. My soul hungered for his word like never before.

I have learned a great deal from the Pentecostal. I was so closed minded at first. But God has delivered me from my legalistic views.

You would be surprised how many baptist believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I can tell, they are looking over their shoulder for the deacon board. 

I used to be a Southern Baptist.

FTL

question:

"in Charismatic churches, or at least the first one i attended, i felt something on me and started praising God... it was like wind and was cool'...

i then later looked around and figured out it was the wind, it was their air conditioners... blowing wind into the congregation.....

i notice this in all charismatic and pentecostal congregations....


          is that how pentecostals get people to believe in the baptism of the holy spirit,
by conjuring up the holy spirit artificially?

i'm now afraid of any church COC also that keeps a cool building....

COLD CHURCHES ARE OUT OF IT IN MY OPINION:
Why can't we go into warm buildings anymore?


another beef:

I believe the holy spirit will stay in a church until they bring a dead body into it....
you know for a funeral.....
after that... you might as well dig a hole for that church!
i just bet leviticus or something dealt with that.

I have never seen anything like what you are talking about.

Churches have A/C because it is hot. If you don't know the difference between an A/C, and the moving of the Spirit then you have never witnessed a moving of the Spirit.

FTL