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i know we have this discussion going in another thread unrelated, and we had one before called sinner or saint, but it is not curren, so here we go again...This is my take on it, i know there are many takes. (mod feel free to move to where you feel appropraite).

Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.

What is renewing? Changing something/someone from one thing to another thing.

So from what to what? What are we when we are not saved? Sinners.
What are we once we are saved, saints, or Sons of God, or the righteousness of God.

What is it that renews are mind? The Word of God.

How can one be transformed from and to the same thing? there is no transformation there.

You are now therefore NEW creations, ALL OLD things have passed away.

What is new? Can it be the same as the Old? No. it is something completely different.

Again what was the old? Sin. What is the new? Saint, righteous, Holy.

What OLD things have PASSED AWAY? Sin, selfishness, greed, etc.

What do we do with this? It is not a suggestion but a command:

Be ye perfect as I am perfect.

How does being a 'sinner' fall anywhere into being perfect? Is there perfection in sin?

But Paul said he was the chief of sinners, what about this? What about it? I would have said that at a point in my walk as well. And now I would say maybe a private, still have some weaknesses that cause me to fall into temptation. So I have not reached perfection yet, however it is my goal. Does this give me a 'label' of 'sinner'? No I am still a Son of God, the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I have just slipped and fell, but I have got back up and back on track, those transgressions where forgiven and forgotten, so there is no sin there, it is lost in the sea of forgetfulness. Is that what God see's when He looks down at us? Sin? But I thought it was Christ in us that God sees? So is Christ in sin? No, of course not.

What is it that we are being transformed into? The image of God, as we were originally created. How else will we live with God for eternity, with sin? No sinner will inherit the kingdom of heaven. No God is working in us the transformation from sinner to saint, with faith in and all thru Christ, who strengthens us.

Just to be clear, I am not claiming that I do not sin, I am saying that is not who we are, that is who we were. I am also not saying that it is anything to do with me, but rather, Christ in me, working out my salvation and perfecting my faith. So I have nothing to boast about.

My brothers,

I believe that if our brothers are offended by the use of the word "sinner" in reference to ourselves as disciples of Christ, that we should not use it.  We should say "saints who occasionally sin" or something like that.  We should not stubbornly cling to something just because we think we have the freedom to use it; it makes our brothers stumble in Christ by causing contention.  Read Romans 14 with this discussion in the back of your mind, and I think you'll find you'll come to a similar conclusion.

Kamakaz, I'm sorry for using the term.  If it's an offensive term to you, or to other Christians, I won't use it.

no it is not offensive to call yourself a sinner, but i do not like to be referred to as a sinner. which some insist on doing. I appreciate your love and care in this. how much brighter and awsome is the gospel when we can comprehend that we are one day going to be in the image of God! We are going to be as we were created to be. that is what is important. I do not claim i do not sin, just like to look at the final condition and have faith in it and in who is working our faith toward that.

The answer to the question in the title of this thread is "Yes".

Both.

I am offended by a lot of things that are said on this forum, but it would be inappropriate to list them all and expect everyone to comply. I will try not to call anyone specifically a sinner, but yes we all sin, which in my vocabulary means we are sinners.

I blog therefore I am a blogger, I read therefore I am a reader, I reply on threads therefore I am a replier to threads..........

A saint is a sinner saved by grace, but still sins as a saint, therefore stil a sinner, but yet a saint.

We should not be trying to offend people by stubbornly sticking to our preference in lexicon, though.  I agree with you on the word, Jamie, but if someone is offended, why use the word and make our brother stumble?  Also, if I have offended you by anything I've said, let me know.  I certainly don't mean this.

Quote from: Brian Kelley on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 09:40:59
We should not be trying to offend people by stubbornly sticking to our preference in lexicon, though.  I agree with you on the word, Jamie, but if someone is offended, why use the word and make our brother stumble?  Also, if I have offended you by anything I've said, let me know.  I certainly don't mean this.

I certainly agree to not single out an individual and label him or her as a sinner. No prob there. But I will not quit using the word generically nor do I think anyone would be offended by it's generic use. The personal label is the problem not the global label.

i am still trying to understand this position, and can not grasp it. can anyone reply to the questions and scriptures in my OP please.

Kamakaz writes:

Quotei am still trying to understand this position, and can not grasp it. can anyone reply to the questions and scriptures in my OP please.

You are not the first to struggle with this, by any stretch of the imagination.  Just by asking the question, I think, you are showing an earnest mind which wishes to please your Lord.  That's great!
Martin Luther struggled mightily with this question.  Have you ever heard of the phrase "simul justis et peccator"?  It's a Latin phrase which means "sinner and saint at the same time".

You ask

QuoteHow can one be transformed from and to the same thing? there is no transformation there.

The transformation is NOT from sinner to non-sinner.  John proves that for us:  "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".  That is written to believers, so it is a false notion to think that you will cease to sin.  What, then, is the transformation?  From unbeliever to believer!  From not trusting Christ as the one whose sacrifice has saved you to trusting in that truth.

QuoteWhat do we do with this? It is not a suggestion but a command:

Be ye perfect as I am perfect.

Are you perfect?  I'm not.  Think about what is being said here.  If we could be perfect, would we need a Savior?  No, there would be no reason.  Is the message of the Gospel that Jesus atoned for your sins so that you would have no need of Him?  Hardly!  Rather, the message of the Gospel is that we need Christ daily because we sin daily.  (If you think you don't sin every day, you're already in deep trouble.)    Paul spends quite a bit of time in Romans, especially chapter 7, talking about the fact that we continue to sin even though we are believers.

So, then, how can we be perfect?  We can't.  End of story.  Not on our own.  However, as believers, God sees us as perfect because we are wearing the white robe of righteousness.  Who gave us that robe?  We didn't earn that robe, we were given it as a free gift (Isaiah talks about how all of our righteousness are like filthy rags, not white robes, and Paul talks about faith being a gift, not of ourselves, in Ephesians and in other places).

So our paradox is this:  as men, we know that our human flesh still sins.  At times, we even take pleasure in these sins (did you ever lose your temper and feel really good about telling someone off, then realize later what a jerk you'd been?  I've done that).  Yet, at the same time, because Christ intercedes for us and covers our sins with his perfection, God sees us through the lens of Christ and he overlooks our sins (they are as far removed as the east from the west, no?).

Martin Luther said something that is rarely understood as he meant it.  He said "Sin boldly".  What could such a thing mean?  Well, you need to read the rest of what he said, which goes as follows:  "...but believe more boldly still."  Luther wrote, "God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners.  Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world."   

Sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. 

Blessings,
Extranos

All are sinners before accepting Christ but become saints after that. Yes, we might still commit sins, but we are now sons and daughters of God and no longer sinners.

QuoteAll are sinners before accepting Christ but become saints after that. Yes, we might still commit sins, but we are now sons and daughters of God and no longer sinners.

Jon-Marc wrote:

"Yes, we might still commit sins, but we are now sons and daughters of God and no longer sinners."

Your cognitive dissonance is showing.  Thank you for proving my point and disproving yours.  We're both sinners and saints - you've just admitted it.



Extranos

still not buying it, sorry. Jesus did not say I will be perfection for you, no He said You be perfect as I am perfect. That in no way implicates that Jesus is our perfection, also we are to be immitators of Christ, are we immitating His sin? of course not, we are to immitate his perfection in love. If we love God we will resist sin and crusify our flesh daily. This means to turn away from (repent) sins, and is this possible? Yes it is. If Jesus said it, it is possible. two times in the NT we are told directly 'do not sin, and go and sin no more' so it is possible. On our own strength and determination (works)? No of course not, but by Him who's very spirit is in us, working out our salvation. God or Jesus never calls us sinners, but we are called saints, Sons of God and the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

There is a man calling himself a chief of all sinners, that is the backbone of the sinners saved by grace idea, but that is a man calling Himself (not us) a sinner. At one point in my early walk, before I was able to resist sin, and lacking faith, I would have concidered myself a general of sin, but I have grown in the Lord and matured in faith in Him, now I would probably concider myself a private first class. There are many areas where I used to fall in tempation that I do not fall any longer when/if tempted. I do not take any of the glory, for if it were not God in me, I would be that old broken sinner, lost and ignorant. But I am not that any longer, thank God!

I prefer to call my self a sinner saved by grace rather than a saint and the reason for this is because I struggle with pride and control and I'm afraid if I call myself a saint rather than a sinner that I'll begin to think more highly of myself than I ought.  This is not to make myself feel bad or less than but just to always remember why I'm saved and how I got to be saved.  That it is NOTHING I did and it is everything Jesus did.  I just never want to forget that and always want to be grateful for Him and all He did and all He does.  Does this mean I go around woe is me and saying I can't do anything but sin so I might as well just sin without any thought or care?  Of course not.  Realizing I am nothing without Christ is not a bad thing.  It's actually the only way I am able to do any good or be any help to anyone else. 

As far as saying you or anyone else is a sinner or a saint, well, I just don't see that as my responsibility.  I'll leave that up to you and Your Lord.

i respect that Serenity, nor would I call anyone what they do not want to be called, however, i prefer to call Gods children, what God calls His children.

I understand the pride issue, but as you mature, all the more stronger your connection with Christ gets and we can boldly proclaim to be saints.

what is a saint, someone elevated, but who? Us? No, we are saints when we elevate Christ. Our focus is on Him alone. And then, God who loves His Son, sees our love for His Son, and GOd then elevates us.

Just as Christ brought glory to His Father, and then His Father gave glory right back to His Son, so it is also with us. We give glory to God thru Christ, and God returns that by giving glory to us!

I'm reading this book called, Hinds Feet on High Places, and the main character in the story is called Much Afraid.  Once she reaches the high places and He has transformed her, He gives her a new name and her new name is Grace and Glory.  Maybe you're right in that you feel transformed by Him and are ready for your new name.  I like that and respect that as well.   

i do not think i am there YET, but I believe i am much closer than 10 years ago. I have a few more issues and weaknesses that God has to work me thru. And He is good at keeping us humble. Just when I may think i am doing good, along will come a situation where i stumble and fall. not to mention all the toys and gatchets we have been given by satan to keep us distracted from God. TV, radio, Ipods, movie theators, etc.

To reach that level of perfection, i think one would have to give up all of that, or have great self-control and discipline. (cruisify our flesh daily) but God willing before i leave this earth i will be there, and all of His people. I think we are in times where there will be great evil but also great revival and a great outpouring of His spirit on His people.

I think that is what I am saying, I am not there yet so I'm not ready for the name change.  The cool thing in that story is it was the Good shepherd that changed the name and not until He thought she was ready. 

It's just looking at it at different angels don't you think?  neither right or wrong

Quote from: extranos on Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 07:53:54

Your cognitive dissonance is showing.  Thank you for proving my point and disproving yours.  We're both sinners and saints - you've just admitted it.



Extranos

I have to agree with that. However, the question was "Is our title 'sinner' or is it 'saint'? I suppose we could be called as many choose, "sinners saved by grace". Unfortunately, we still have our sin nature, but that doesn't mean we have to give in to that sin nature and let it rule as it did before we came to Christ.

actually we do not have the old nature unless we choose to take it back from the dead. WE are now therefore NEW creations in Christ, ALL OLD things have passed away. the bible says our OLD nature was buried with Christ and we have risen in a new nature. WE have the spirit of God in us! not just in heaven, but within us! The old nature (flesh) was cruicified with Christ, we only choose to retreive it from the grave of our free will. But it no longer has power over us unless we empower it.

God has given us spiritual armor, a sword ( the word) and the name which is above every name, which has power. Greater is He who is in us, than he who is in the world. Resist the devil and he WILL flee. Is satan afraid of our flesh nature? No, not at all! but is he afraid of our new nature (spirit of God in us) Yes in deed!

It is great to overcome as much sin in our lives as we can.  However, we will never live without sin.  If so there would be no need for grace.

Also we need to understand that as all have different gifts and tallents all have different sns and ability to over come them.  It is easy for one who has never suffered from depression to say "you just need to snap out of it.."  Likewise it is easy for one who does not deal with certain sins to say " They are a christian now and should not do those things.."  The grace of God covers all our sins.  Johnb

I forgot to answer the question.  We are sinners saved by grace. We are made saints by God.  Later Johnb

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 10:39:38
It is great to overcome as much sin in our lives as we can.  However, we will never live without sin.  If so there would be no need for grace.

Also we need to understand that as all have different gifts and tallents all have different sns and ability to over come them.  It is easy for one who has never suffered from depression to say "you just need to snap out of it.."  Likewise it is easy for one who does not deal with certain sins to say " They are a christian now and should not do those things.."  The grace of God covers all our sins.  Johnb

although I still have areas to grow in, and still sin. I do not concider myself a sinner. I am a saint in training, and still need the grace of God. However, grace should not be used as a crutch. God hates sin, therefore we should hate sin. And I have overcome difficult sins, fornication is a difficult one in our society where it is not only ok, its the norm. So we can overcome any sin, and it is the grace of God that does not kill us in our sin, but gives us the time we need to overcome! Not that grace is a free ride on the fun and exciting 'sin train'. We are to grow in faith, to be overcomers (overcomers of what? sin) and to grow from faith to faith.

but it is possible to live without sin. if we do ALL and exactly ALL and ONLY what Jesus says and does (follow His example) we can be perfect as He is perfect! amen.

Quote
but it is possible to live without sin. if we do ALL and exactly ALL and ONLY what Jesus says and does (follow His example) we can be perfect as He is perfect! amen.



Not in this life.  If the apostle paul could not do it neither can I.  There would be no need for grace and the sacrifice of Christ would be neccessary.  We would not need the NT all we would have to do is follow the rules and save our selves.  Christ was the only one able to keep the law perfectly.  I said nothing about using grace as an excuse.  Later Johnb

Rom 7
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I can be good enough.  I can not earn any part of my salvation.  I can be a better person but will always struggle with sin.  It is all of God none of me.  "If I say I have no sin I am a lier and the truth is not in me.."   "I have crusified the son of God a new.."

I am a sinner saved by grace period.  Later Johnb