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  Friends: (Not Christ's Foes)
Let us remember that Mary was and may still be in His Heart, as His Mother. I have been reading and hearing alot of insulting remarks about the Catholics and Hail Marys and mean talk of praying to her and all. God said Mary will be Honored among women in the Holy King James Bible. The Catholics take care of this Holy Work for God, seeing to it that this gets done everyday, all around the world. Faithful in a few things....
1.They bring babies and small childeren unto Christ like He said and full baptism that they start their blessed Christian life with the Savior for LIFE, until they leave this earth and then Heaven, forever.
2.They have Holy Communions just like He said.
3.They pray the Lord's Prayer just like He said, they confess, oh how they confess, just like He said. James-... confess your faults one to another...
4.Confirmations are made, about Him and other  Holy Works or Sacraments are made. 5.Priests forgive as He told His ministers they could forgive.
6.They are believers of the entire Godhead.
And yes they make mistakes, like the other denominations or churches and they are NOT perfect, they strive, and they are under some kind of divers trouble right now, they need prayers not more persecution..judge NOT...but unless I am very wrong, and I have Faith in One God that I am not, they will be found faithful in a few things and MORE than some of the other churches or brides taken up in His coming back for us. This will be at the judgment Throne of the Living God. But, be very fearful to make insults about a Holy Man's Mother, when He is a God in Heaven. Be very careful. Let us let Him take care of  questionable matters that we know not, and stay out of trouble with Him. Our Words will be accounted for someday.
Thank you merciful Savior they know not what they do. please forgive us all. No one wants to go to Hell. Amen. 

  And never last they HONOR Mary among women for Jesus. Most of all because He loved her and He still does. Let us not be Parisees and Saducees??!! Glory Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!1

I talk to Mary. She's an amazing woman.

Quote from: Just As I Am on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 14:23:49
I spent a very long time visiting St. Patrick's Cathedral this fall. I was reminded of how much Mary is to be regarded among women. I wish I could accept what God gives me so willingly, humbly and obediently.

In NY, NY?  That's an amazing building, isn't it?  And it is peaceful and quiet in the midst of the Manhattan hubbub....always on my itinerary when in town.

Luke 1:47  Mary said,  And my Spirit has rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.

The only one's that need a saviour are sinners.  Right?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:51:16
Luke 1:47  Mary said,  And my Spirit has rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.

The only one's that need a saviour are sinners.  Right?

Ah, I LOVE the Magnificat!  It's a beautiful Catholic prayer...

My soul doth magnify the Lord.
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.



Just in case you weren't aware, we believe God is Mary's saviour in an even bigger way than for most of us...we believe He kept her from even inheriting original sin, not for her own sake, but to provide a spotless vessel for His Perfect Son, to honor Him. To provide a New Ark of the Covenant, which would carry God's Word (this time, not in written form but actually MADE FLESH!) inside it, a vessel which was not to be touched by any unclean thing. By acknowledging the creation, we give praise and honor to the Creator.

Praise God for His Mercy and Goodness! 

Quote from: mllevaleur on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 16:25:35

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:51:16
Luke 1:47  Mary said,  And my Spirit has rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.

The only one's that need a saviour are sinners.  Right?

Ah, I LOVE the Magnificat!  It's a beautiful Catholic prayer...

My soul doth magnify the Lord.
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.



Just in case you weren't aware, we believe God is Mary's saviour in an even bigger way than for most of us...we believe He kept her from even inheriting original sin, not for her own sake, but to provide a spotless vessel for His Perfect Son, to honor Him. To provide a New Ark of the Covenant, which would carry God's Word (this time, not in written form but actually MADE FLESH!) inside it, a vessel which was not to be touched by any unclean thing. By acknowledging the creation, we give praise and honor to the Creator.

Praise God for His Mercy and Goodness! 

Where does it say he kept her from inheriting orignal sin?  I can't find that in my Bible.

If he did that for Mary, as you believe, why didn't he do it for all of us?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:24:39
If he did that for Mary, as you believe, why didn't he do it for all of us?

Ummmm...I don't think that anyone of us will be giving birth to the Saviour of mankind anytime soon....I have a feeling that it was a one time deal....

broach972

She said, I will rejoice in God my savior.

She didn't say, I have been made free from original sin.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:24:39
Where does it say he kept her from inheriting orignal sin?  I can't find that in my Bible.

One could look at "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).

What part of "full" do you not understand?  Of course, we can go beyond this and make a solid argument.

Where in the Bible does it say she wasn't saved from original sin??  We need to get over this "if it isn't in the Bible, then...."

broach972

I believe that Mary was saved just like the rest of us sinners.  By the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:36:12
broach972

She said, I will rejoice in God my savior.

She didn't say, I have been made free from original sin.

Why would she?  She needed a savior just like anyone else.  I think this may be a little over your head Robert.  You might want to leave this one alone.

The word used in the King James is "blessed" and not "honored". Also, it was Elisabeth (as well as the angel who came to Mary) who said, "Blessed art thou among women." Mary referred to herself as the "handmaid of the Lord" in Luke 1:38. Yes, she is the mother of Jesus, but nowhere in God's word is she called the mother of God. While she is blessed for being the instrument God used to bring Jesus into the world, she is not on an equal standing with our Lord. She doesn't sit at the right (and probably not even the left) hand of the Father as co-ruler with Jesus.

broach972

Are you changing your original statement?

You said, that "He kept her from inheriting original sin."

And now you are saying she needed a savior just like everyone else.

I would like to understand Catholicism, but it is all so confusing.

  Thank you Jon Marc for using scripture to bring to my attention the exact Words of the Bible. And thank you for all your replies. Still, if I were the Holy Man, Jesus, a God with our Father in Heaven...I would like for very blessed things to be said about my mother and sister in earth and someday, Heaven, because God said so in His Word. You must admit, many mean things are said about mary and Hail Marys....and this could be a personal insult to His throne.
I hope I never want to. For my sake. Let us pray and lift up one another, the Catholic Church is under persecution and need our requests and petitions before God, to answer. Praise you Father and thank you for answering. Amen.

The "mean things" as you put it are not said about Mary, but about those who appear to elevate her to a position equal to God.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:24:39
Where does it say he kept her from inheriting orignal sin?  I can't find that in my Bible.

The phrase "full of grace" implies it. We see original sin as a lack of sanctifying grace, thus the phrase full of grace implies that she was not lacking it.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel's greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel's visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

QuoteIf he did that for Mary, as you believe, why didn't he do it for all of us?

As broach mentioned, none of us are planning on being a vessel for God Himself anytime soon, now are we?

This special grace extended to Mary is actually to honor Christ, not Mary, to provide for Him a spotless vessel. We honor her choice to cooperate with this grace, but we certainly don't place her on the same level as Christ himself.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:36:12
broach972

She said, I will rejoice in God my savior.

She didn't say, I have been made free from original sin.

I would assume you're aware that Catholics don't hold to sola scriptura...so this isn't a problem for us. Not every last thing needs to be explicit in scripture for us to believe it, since we also believe in Sacred Tradition. We do believe that sacred Tradition will never contradict Sacred Scripture, seeing as they are basically two sides of the same coin, one written tradition, the other oral tradition.

The two statments above do not contradict each other, therefore it's not a problem for us. 

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:48:03
broach972

I believe that Mary was saved just like the rest of us sinners.  By the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Um...just FYI, Catholics believe that too! Thought I covered that in my first post...

Quote from: Jon-Marc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 19:19:30
The word used in the King James is "blessed" and not "honored". Also, it was Elisabeth (as well as the angel who came to Mary) who said, "Blessed art thou among women."

Who knew that Elizabeth spoke King James English? 

QuoteMary referred to herself as the "handmaid of the Lord" in Luke 1:38. Yes, she is the mother of Jesus, but nowhere in God's word is she called the mother of God. While she is blessed for being the instrument God used to bring Jesus into the world, she is not on an equal standing with our Lord. She doesn't sit at the right (and probably not even the left) hand of the Father as co-ruler with Jesus.

Of course she's not on equal standing with Our Lord!! Who on earth said that?

As for not being called mother of God....Do you not believe that Jesus is God? 

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 19:21:26
broach972

Are you changing your original statement?

You said, that "He kept her from inheriting original sin."

And now you are saying she needed a savior just like everyone else.

I would like to understand Catholicism, but it is all so confusing.

Let's see if I can help you out....

Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ's grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

Remember, God is outside of time...all time is present to Him at once, so it's not a big deal for Him to apply the work of the cross to Mary. God is cool like that! 

Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ECTDOC.HTM

Blessed among, not above women. Mary has never heard a prayer from anyone.

Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

We also know this because God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent. Mary is none of the above.

The Holy Spirit, Comforter, teacher, who lives in us, is THE Sovereign distributer of all things, this includes Grace, faith, wisdom, peace, understanding, etc.. Everything that the Catholic church tells you can be achieved through prayer to Mary (which is idolatry) is in fact the ministry of the Holy Spirit, not Mary.

Power of the Holy Ghost, The
http://www.bible-topics.com/Power-of-the-Holy-Ghost-The.html

Holy Ghost, the Comforter, The
http://www.bible-topics.com/Holy-Ghost-the-Comforter-The.html

Holy Ghost, The Personality of
http://www.bible-topics.com/Holy-Ghost-The-Personality-of.html

Holy Ghost, the Teacher, The
http://www.bible-topics.com/Holy-Ghost-the-Teacher-The.html

Holy Ghost, The, is God
http://www.bible-topics.com/Holy-Ghost-The-is-God.html

Ephesians 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

When we pray in the Spirit (Jude 20), we are praying according to God's will because He gave us our desires (Psalm 37:4), and makes known to our hearts what to pray (Ephesians 6:18).

His Holy Spirit makes intercession for us, not Mary.

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The only acceptable prayers are through Christ (in His name).

John 14:1 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. (Also see John 15:16, John 16:23-24)

Jesus, in teaching us how to pray and giving us an example, and I stress the word "example" (these are not magical words as in 'open says me'), tells us to pray to the Father, not using vain repetitions. Notice, in His teaching and example, nowhere is Mary mentioned.

Matthew 6:5-13 5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen

In all of scripture that teaches, talks of, or gives examples of prayer, Mary is never mentioned as part of the process.

Prayer
http://www.bible-topics.com/Prayer.html

Prayer, Answers to
http://www.bible-topics.com/Prayer-Answers-to.html

Prayer, Intercessory
http://www.bible-topics.com/Prayer-Intercessory.html

Prayer, Private
http://www.bible-topics.com/Prayer-Private.html

Prayer, Public
http://www.bible-topics.com/Prayer-Public.html

Prayer, Social and Family
http://www.bible-topics.com/Prayer-Social-and-Family.html

In Christ

Dave

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=21725.0

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 19:21:26
broach972

Are you changing your original statement?

You said, that "He kept her from inheriting original sin."

And now you are saying she needed a savior just like everyone else.

I would like to understand Catholicism, but it is all so confusing.

Robert, you just answered your own question.  Look at your post very carefully.  HE kept her from inheriting original sin.  This is something she could not have done on her own.  She did need a savior just like everyone else.

Quote from: Nevertheless on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 20:30:32
The "mean things" as you put it are not said about Mary, but about those who appear to elevate her to a position equal to God.

Catholics do not elevate her to a position equal to God.  She is not a deity nor is she divine.

Dave, you might want to read the following article that more or less kills your argument.

Praying to the Saints

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ's mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ's unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ's role as mediator.

"No Contact with the dead"

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God's prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother's grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I'm having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one's behalf.

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God's willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner's argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King's English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed's book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

"Directly to Jesus"

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person's faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God's presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That's something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

In Heaven and On Earth

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren't just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

All of this is chasing chihuahuas around a water fountain.  The core difference is not Mary, saints, candles and cathedrals, those are just fruits of the root difference, which is as was pointed out somewhere along the line--sola scriptura v. tradition. 

The problem from where I'm sitting is that the hurdle with tradition is only "if it doesn't contradict scripture."  On the surface that sounds fine, but in practice it leads to all kinds of proof-texting, eisogesis, hermeneutical gymnastics.  I could say that angels fly in UFOs because there is no scripture that contradicts, and because I could draw you one using Ezekiel as a guide (then I could run as a Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich running mate, too, but that's for another section of the forum ).  I could teach this and preach this and defend it saying, "It doesn't contradict scripture," and I'd be right...or would I?  It could be I'm dead wrong, but not "contradicting scripture".  And to me, that a big hangup.

However to be fair, this is not a Catholic issue alone.  Many of us do this already no matter what part of "Christendom" we're in, and as a result have adopted our sets of Tradition as well, and are every bit as adept at proof-texting, etc. as anyone else.

Broach, to answer your post, I would only ask you to read my post again. Your Queen of heaven has her roots in Babylon, not the earthy mother of God incarnate. She cannot hear your prayers.

Dave

Quote from: jmg3rd on Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 07:11:14
All of this is chasing chihuahuas around a water fountain.  The core difference is not Mary, saints, candles and cathedrals, those are just fruits of the root difference, which is as was pointed out somewhere along the line--sola scriptura v. tradition. 

The problem from where I'm sitting is that the hurdle with tradition is only "if it doesn't contradict scripture."  On the surface that sounds fine, but in practice it leads to all kinds of proof-texting, eisogesis, hermeneutical gymnastics.  I could say that angels fly in UFOs because there is no scripture that contradicts, and because I could draw you one using Ezekiel as a guide (then I could run as a Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich running mate, too, but that's for another section of the forum ).  I could teach this and preach this and defend it saying, "It doesn't contradict scripture," and I'd be right...or would I? 

Actually, no you couldn't. Part of Tradition is the three-fold test of antiquity, universality, and consensus. Not just anybody can teach that any idea they come up with which isn't specifically contradicted in Scripture is therefore valid. In fact, that's exactly what you find most prevalent among sola scripturists: the idea that if I read the bible and come to my own understanding, then it's at least as good as anybody else's understanding. Insert postmodernism into the equation and you find that MY interpretation is superior for me than any other interpretation ever. Tradition, on the other hand, builds onto Scripture an ever-increasing doctrinal center of mass with the understanding that those who build this Tradition are as trustworthy to do so as those who wrote the Scriptures, and are similarly guided by the Holy Spirit. But not at all in a modern Pentecostal "I felt it in my heart; therefore it is from the Lord" kind of way.

Now we can argue all day long over whether the builders of Tradition were really all that trustworthy. But in the end, all we're doing is pitting our own interpretation of Scripture, shaped, by the way, by Tradition whether we like it or not, against that of those who built that very Tradition. We trusted them when they gave us the canon, taught us about the Trinity, had us take the Lord's supper with a teeny pinch of matzo and a shot glass amount of grape juice, had us architect our worship places to be dependent on a few (or one) star players with the rest spectators. And now we break our own rule by treating the teachings handed down to us like a cafeteria where we can pick what we like and pass on what we don't think we'd like to have.

But then we go one step further. We take our pick of the historical truths we subscribe to, box them up and head to the parking lot. But not before turning around and proclaiming that everybody who eats there is poisoned and is a murderer for getting others to join in. Then we set up shop on our tailgates and dispense the leftovers we just got from that same place to passers by.

Charlie, I kind of being tongue in cheek.  I realize there's much more to it than that.  However, I also realize that there are doctrines held that do not meet the three-fold test you've given, yet there they are.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 09:10:13
Charlie, I kind of being tongue in cheek.  I realize there's much more to it than that.  However, I also realize that there are doctrines held that do not meet the three-fold test you've given, yet there they are.

I know you do. I wasn't ranting at you. I was using your post as a springboard.

Spring away.  It was good post, btw.

Quote from: Dave... on Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 08:20:42
Broach, to answer your post, I would only ask you to read my post again. Your Queen of heaven has her roots in Babylon, not the earthy mother of God incarnate. She cannot hear your prayers.

Dave

Before you play the "pagan" card, you might want to read this...

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=20874.msg440872#msg440872

Quote from: broach972 on Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 06:59:19

Quote from: Nevertheless on Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 20:30:32
The "mean things" as you put it are not said about Mary, but about those who appear to elevate her to a position equal to God.

Catholics do not elevate her to a position equal to God.  She is not a deity nor is she divine.

Now you're the one who's not reading carefully. The wording of that sentence was quite intentional.