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It seems to me there is a great chasm thinking between the one that cheats in a marriage and the one that does not. So much so that at least 40% of the time or better it leads to divorce. But for those who stick it out the prospect of a full recovery is not possible. What is generally accepted is a crippled marriage. One of the reason is simply this and that is the guilty party has lost the ability to empathize with there spouse. I believe this is a life time event and  though the marriage may heal it can never achieve what it was meant to be.

No, I disagree.  Maybe the ones here who have gone through this can tell you where they agree and disagree with you.

I don't think a marriage scarred by an affair can somehow go back to its unaffected previous state -- but I do believe it can be re-built and become a good marriage again, one that can honor God again and nurture the people in the home again.

Are you really saying that a marriage, ruptured by an affair or any other BIG problem, cannot be a good and useful marriage again?

I don't know or care how the guilty one feels about committing adultery. What I do know about from personal experience is how it feels to be cheated on over and over and then told, "I won't change." A few years after we were divorced, she actually asked me if I would remarry her. How could I remarry someone who told me she would never stop cheating on me?

Um... maybe she thought you'd value a mate who told the truth?   

There is nothing to be valued in that truth.

 I think it is possible to deal with   big problems like affairs or  someone on meth for example. But what I'm saying is that the one who (if you will) tips the scales to the extreme loses the ability to care for their spouse. It can be one or both of them. The ability to emotionally shut out your spouse  by an affair is similar to addiction or compulsive behavior. Once you learn this behavior a certain bias in the brain is portrayed for self gratification. And it is the gratification I believe is embedded in those who do such acts. Now is possible that one or the other  can control the behavior, yes  but the propensity to repeat such behaviors or turn them into other risky behaviors is very high.

QuoteI don't know or care how the guilty one feels about committing adultery. What I do know about from personal experience is how it feels to be cheated on over and over and then told, "I won't change."

Jon- Marc I can see shows this in own personal experience. Too notice the condition Jon Marc ex gave in the idea of remarriage it is total devoid of his own feelings.

Too the same things can happen between parents and children in which there is a loss of empathy. We see this particularly like we a child joins a cult or falls into gangs. The lure and power of such things will be life long that doesn't mean one can't break free but that what is impressed on the brain remains as euphoric high.  





 

I disagree with the idea that such a person can never change, or never have empathy toward another. Repentance, and the Spirit of Christ can enable a man or woman to become an entirely "new creation". With God all things are possible.

Quote from: James Rondon on Thu Dec 27, 2007 - 20:31:57
I disagree with the idea that such a person can never change, or never have empathy toward another. Repentance, and the Spirit of Christ can enable a man or woman to become an entirely "new creation". With God all things are possible.

Anyone can change if they want to, but it won't happen against their will. When someone determines and says "I WON'T change", there's nothing anyone can do but give up.

I would even go farther to say there is a point of no return. Everything has a price I just  think there some who are willing to sell their birth rite for a bowl of poridge.

Quote from: Jon-Marc on Fri Dec 28, 2007 - 20:21:51

Quote from: James Rondon on Thu Dec 27, 2007 - 20:31:57
I disagree with the idea that such a person can never change, or never have empathy toward another. Repentance, and the Spirit of Christ can enable a man or woman to become an entirely "new creation". With God all things are possible.

Anyone can change if they want to, but it won't happen against their will. When someone determines and says "I WON'T change", there's nothing anyone can do but give up.

Just so you know, what I said was in reply to comments made by Mark, not by you, Jon-Marc.

It would be a sad day if broken, busted relationships can NEVER be restored 'as it was before'  Every one of my relationships, including the one with God, has been dented to blown to bits at some point and I don't live as if they are second hand.  If memories are the cause of the "never" , then wouldn't the replacement of bad memories with good memories be the key?   Certainly, if a person is in the "I will never quit cheating on you" mode, I wouldn't be dillusioned that restoration (or repentance for that matter) is to be elevated to the level of likelyhood.   One day, she may wake up and have a broken heart and repent.  Resolutions do help make contemporary decisions.  (Good grief, such big words that still say nothing!!!)

Quote from: James Rondon on Fri Dec 28, 2007 - 22:52:49

Just so you know, what I said was in reply to comments made by Mark, not by you, Jon-Marc.

I figured that; I'm actually smarter than I look--I hope. Anyway, I just wanted to add my penny's worth.

Thanks, Jon-Marc. I just wanted to make sure...

Anyway -- how is the "bad guy" changed ?  The one who did the affair-ing?

I don't think they change in the way we think they do. If they stay with there spouse it is  different if they divorce. What mainly happens is a shading of the personality to opposite spectrum more often many years down the road. The Clintons are a good example of this. Hilary once quiet and reserved and Bill powerful and presidential now switching or at least attempting to switch roles. And can Bill be empathetic towards his wife in her bid for president?

To prove a point here we know we have had a string of teachers that have caught national headlines with their affairs with students. Assuming the guilty party escapes prosecution and manages to save their marriage how long is the stigma of such problems. I will say lifelong.

Having experienced this situation myself, I would answer that question with a question...Why did they cheat in the first place? Was it just lustful adultery? Or were they victims of an abusive relationship? Neither are excuses of course, but they both are totally different.

Having helped people in these situation (also lived through it myself), I have seen and heard some amazing things concerning this subject. I know of one woman who was in a terrible marriage..Mentally, verbally and physically abused....She did everything her husband asked for...Totally submissive...Sex...Whenever he wanted..multiple times daily..Everyday..Even if she was sick or on her cycle...She was expected to follow through. And she did...She cleaned, cooked, worked, etc...Well, she eventually had an affair...But she knew it was wrong...She was tormented about it...She eventually divorced, got her life cleaned up, rededicated her life to Christ and has never looked back. She beats herself up about what she did...She however, will NOT make excuses...She takes full responsibility....But she is scarred...She will never forget what happened....Take the other side, my ex wife...She had everything SHE ever asked for... She had the house she wanted, the car she wanted, the clothes she wanted, a devoted husband who loved her unconditionally (I did), kids, I helped her clean and cook....Why would she throw it all away? She has NEVER cared about what she did to our family. She has NEVER apologized for what she did...Not to me or our kids...(most on here know my story)...She has continued to live her life like that...She has been remarried and divorced..Adultery, living with guys, etc...Why does she not care?

How can someone who was treated like garbage and did wrong, see the error of their ways and feel awful..While another, who was literally treated like a queen, could care less about what they did and the impact it had?

Let's take God out of this for a minute..I am 38...Male...Love women...I love my wife very much...I love being intimate with her...I look forward to it...In other words, I am a typical male...But, even though I lived in an absolute terrible marriage, I never cheated on my first wife...I would go literally months with out sex....But, I loved her....I never even considered cheating..And believe me, I had my opportunities...Travelling out of the country for work, etc...I could have done what I wanted...But I didn't do anything wrong....In fact I have never cheated on any woman I even dated..Even as a teenager..And I know others like that...So, why the difference...Why do some cheat and others do not? Why do people who have everything cheat and hurt people? Why do people who literally live in Hell on earth endure and stay faithful? I think it boils down to character...

I truly believe that some of us would never, no matter the circumstances, have an affair...Even with out having a relationship with our savior, they would not do it...On the other hand, there are those who (like my ex wife), for what ever reason, can't help but do it...And they will tell you as much...They have no remorse in what they did...Only remorse in being caught doing it...There is a big difference in the two....They hate that they hurt someone, but not enough to stop doing it...It is pathetic really.

So, this brings me to my final thought...You will not change your character alone..Only Christ will change that for you...And believe me, it can happen....I am living proof...I may have never had an affair, but I was a filthy as any sinner until Jesus' blood cleansed and saved me...And with his help, I have changed my life....That is the only hope for all who want to change...But it does no good unless you are willing to take the first step.

One other thing, others have mentioned how an affair affected the marriage....Well, I will tell you what I observed personally in my own situation and in some of the others I have helped...The offender thinks it is over as soon as they admit to it...They think it should be gotten over really quickly..They tend not to understand the pain their actions have caused. They also do not want to talk about it...They get angry if it is brought up...They feel like a weight has been lifted from them when they are confronted and finally confess..So for them, it is over the minute they confess to their spouse what they have done....And they expect a like reaction and they get VERY agitated when it doesn't happen..This response is what is called worldly sorrow...They are sorry they got caught..No more..No less...

Now understand, I have seen people who have what is called, "Godly sorrow"..These are people who are REALLY convicted by the Lord and do all they can to make amends to the ones they offended..Even at the cost of inflicting great shame, pain and burdens on themself to make it right...They are willing to except responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences...I have also seen people get saved and as an act of obedience I suppose, apologize to an ex or someone they had wronged while married to them or what ever the circumstance...It is a life changing event...It is really easy to see..If you are looking for it that is....

I could be wrong, but I believe that most cheaters do it because they are not satisfied with one person. Some are just sex crazy--like my wife. I had a brother and sister-in-law who swapped. They wanted my wife and me to swap with them, but we didn't. I was drunk at the time, but not THAT drunk! They were both sex crazy. She had four children by four different men, one by her husband (my brother), two by two of my other brothers, and one by a black man. She wanted one by me, but I wouldn't oblige her.

QuoteThe offender thinks it is over as soon as they admit to it...They think it should be gotten over really quickly..They tend not to understand the pain their actions have caused. They also do not want to talk about it...They get angry if it is brought up...They feel like a weight has been lifted from them when they are confronted and finally confess..So for them, it is over the minute they confess to their spouse what they have done....And they expect a like reaction and they get VERY agitated when it doesn't happen..This response is what is called worldly sorrow...They are sorry they got caught..No more..No less...

So how does it effect the one who cheats?

They lose the ability to understand
They lose the ability to communicate
They lose the ability to be genuine in there sorrow

Interesting though about your story of the other women. You compared  an abusive relation and one that has everything you could possible want. What seems to be a factor is the motive of the affair in  the ability to change.

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QuoteWhat seems to be a factor is the motive of the affair in  the ability to change.

MarkHooper,

I am not quit sure what you meant by the sentence above....But if it is what I am trying to interpret it as, I would say the ability to change had really very little if anything at all to do with it..

With the first woman, she was a Christian when she had her affair..She was a severely abused woman..Very low self esteem and feeling of self worth...She had emotional issues she was dealing with...She still deals with them today..She had endured forced intercourse just about every day in her marriage..Most would call that rape...I know I do..But because she was married and did not resist, well you get the story...That is how she was basically lured into an affair with this guy who saw her weaknesses...Let's just say she fits the book definition of why some people have affairs...He was nice to her...He was actually her husbands best friend...But in the end, he did not care about her...Just what she could give him...She felt horrible about it and stopped it..She was never caught...She repented...Went to her husband and told him about it...They divorced..She continued on her path of healing and bible study, etc...She has never done it again...She is remarried...Happily...She is a wonderful wife and mother...God has been faithful to her..She truly was sorry for what she did...My point is, even after this woman was abused so severely, she had 1 affair...1..She knew immediately that it was wrong....And even though she wanted badly to be wanted and loved the right way, she stopped what she was doing...She loved her husband even though he was a piece of garbage...

The other one, my ex wife, would not have known abuse if she looked up the word in the dictionary...She was absolutely pampered...Had everything she wanted...Every need was met...But for some reason she had to have affairs...She had many until she was caught...If you have ever read my post, you will know that she got pregnant in on of these affairs...He kicked her to the curb and told her to abort the child....She only told me about it until it was obvious she had a GROWING problem and I confronted her...Her mother had put her out...She had nowhere to go...So, I confronted her and she told me...Well, long story short, I forgave her...Blah, blah, blah...She stayed...I accepted the child as my own...But, you guessed it, she did it again and again and again....When we finally divorced, it was discovered that 2 of my 3 children were not biologically mine...But I love them none the less...And they are mine and I am the only Daddy they have...So, ask yourself, why would she do it? What was so wrong in the marriage that she had to do what she did? It wasn't my looks...I am 6'3" at the time I weighed about 235...It wasn't my behavior or running around..So, why? The only conclusion I could come up with (and her explanation in the end) was that it was in her character to be that way...It is like the story of the scorpion and the toad..

A toad comes to a raging river to cross it...The land is flooding and it will mean sure death for any creature left behind...Well, as he gets to the river bank, he See's a scorpion...The scorpion ask for a ride across the river..The toad says, "no way, you would sting me half way across the river and kill me.."  The scorpion says, "Why would I do that? I would be killed also..We would both drown. That is not logical." So, the toad agrees and as the are crossing the river the scorpion stings the frog...As the frog is dying, he asks; "why did you do this? Now we will both die." The scorpion replied, "yes, you are right..We will die..I can't help it..It is my character.I am a scorpion..."

QuoteI can't help it..It is my character.I am a scorpion..."

This kinda supports my thinking there is a great character flaw in some people.

I contend that there are great flaws in all people.   Some are easier to repair than others, and for a real, true, full, healing-type repair and change, only the Lord can do that.

I had a brother-in-law who cheated on my sister all the time--including with my wife. He once told me, "I can't turn down any woman." So what makes a man that way? Is it an addiction that controls him--like alcohol or drugs? Maybe he's wired wrong.

Maybe he's never grown up.  Instant gratification outweighs waiting for the bigger payoff later.

Quote from: Jon-Marc on Tue Jan 01, 2008 - 23:49:26
I had a brother-in-law who cheated on my sister all the time--including with my wife. He once told me, "I can't turn down any woman." So what makes a man that way? Is it an addiction that controls him--like alcohol or drugs? Maybe he's wired wrong.

Jon-Marc,

I am sure there is a doctor out there that would say that your brother in law had an addiction...I have heard it used before..I have heard people say they are addicted to sex...My question is, who isn't?? I mean if you look at what they are saying they are addicted to....

In my opinion, people like that lack self control and a moral compass for recognizing right from wrong....Probably because they have never paid a price for their actions. A lot of people might look at a situation and say, "Well, he paid a price..His wife divorced him." Let me assure you, most do not think of that as a consequence to their actions. They just move on to their next "challenge."

That same brother-in-law was murdered by his daughter-in-law. She claimed it was because he had molested her daughter. After what my daughter told me about him wanting sex with her, I can believe that.

There are people who have sex addictions.  There are 12-step programs for sex addicts.  There are people who have successfully recovered from sex and love addictions.  There is help, but the person I know who went through the program said it was the hardest thing he ever did.  It was harder than becoming clean and sober from alcohol and drugs.

Well... whether or not a pattern is an addiction, and whether or not we ought to care about that if it is, is a good topic for another discussion.

QuoteThere are people who have sex addictions.

Is this a result of an affair? Much like taking the drug and altering the mind is indulging in unbound sex mind altering. This is my point of the thread how does an affair effect the one who has it. We now have at least 4 things that can happen to a person who indulges an affair. I am all for people to heal and change but what is obvious in retrospect is that, yes to do anything outside of any type of relationship is harmful and life altering.

Lets use another example with the same type of boundaries relationally hypothetically lets say the church Treasurer steals 50,000 from the church. The person is caught and wants to rectify the situation. Is the thrill of stealing mind altering to the point of addiction to point of losing the ability to care about people to the point never being genuine to the point of never being able to communicate.

Now think about this is the rectifying of the situation in regards to how we think the person now is? Will this person ever get to be a Treasurer again? Now back to a marriage and cheating is it not like the church Treasurer. There is more than just the reason why some one does something wrong. It is the  feelings of unbound emotions that become a life long struggle.

How does the affair affect the one who cheated?  It all depends on their attitude.  If they are truly repentant, the realization that they hurt someone can hang with them for YEARS.  Yes I do believe it is possible to restore the relationship, it will never be perfect, but it can be better than it was before the affair. 
I think it all comes down to whether you believe people can truly change.  Some can, but it usually takes counseling/therapy and a lot of hard work.

To add to my earlier comment, an affair isn't always about the sex.  Sometimes it is a "love" addiction.  No, not to real love, but the "high" that occurs when one is "in love" or infatuation.  For the excitement one feels to think that someone else is attracted to "me".  It's not all about sex.

QuoteHow does the affair affect the one who cheated?  It all depends on their attitude.  If they are truly repentant, the realization that they hurt someone can hang with them for YEARS.  Yes I do believe it is possible to restore the relationship,, but
I think it all comes down to whether you believe people can truly change.  Some can, but it usually takes counseling/therapy and a lot of hard work.

To add to my earlier comment, an affair isn't always about the sex.  Sometimes it is a "love" addiction.  No, not to real love, but the high" that occurs when one is "in love" or infatuation".  For the excitement one feels to think that someone else is attracted to "me".  It's not all about sex.

I guess we can add more to the list.  "it will never be perfect" However I'm a Little puzzled by the phrase  "it can be better than it was before the affair."  This doesn't make sense to me. You have just given a reason to have an affair to improve a marriage how can an imperfect relationship be better than it was before? Next you say an affair is not all about sex again a distortion between the physical and the spiritual. An affair is only about sex. Temptation is very different from committing a sin. Jesus was tempted with a stone to turn it into bread but he did not sin.

   

Quotebut the high" that occurs when one is "in love" or infatuation

This needs some more explaination if it is some type of mental disorder.

Re: the "high" of falling in love or nursing a crush...

No need to call a simple hormonal/endorphin rush a mental disorder.  Or even, necessarily, a sin.  It happens.  What do we do with it?

I think it is very important to clarify that the Bible is clear about actions verses thoughts. No one goes to jail for there thoughts. But I know there has been some people that have wanted to enforce such irrational thinking. I would a agree with janine some of our thoughts are just human in nature. Behavior thought speaks to a broader idea of whats going on with someone.

Markhooper

"However I'm a Little puzzled by the phrase  "it can be better than it was before the affair."  This doesn't make sense to me. You have just given a reason to have an affair to improve a marriage how can an imperfect relationship be better than it was before? "


Because after an affair the couple has to work so..o hard to please each other, for  the marriage to survive. If it does survive, it can be better than before. Most of the time the marriage falls apart.

In Proverbs 6:32 Says he destroyeth his own soul. Wound and dishonor shall he get and his reproach shall not be wiped away.

I understand this to say that it messes with his mind. He will live with it forever.

Quote from: janine on Thu Dec 27, 2007 - 18:37:38
Um... maybe she thought you'd value a mate who told the truth?   ::uhh::

that was funny in a VERY twisted way. i shouldn't have laughed at that!