Christian Forums

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 19:14:16

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06There are many on this forum that are teaching. But they are not saying they are the ones to rule over others. Of those teaching which ones are you going to see as overseers, as sheperds? --  Oh yes, of course, those that agree with you. -- You can't see me, or Robert, as people of God trying to teach the truth in Christ.

I never said that anyone is to rule over anyone, thats just another of your scarecrows. Overseers are not people who rule the church, nor does the shepherd rule over the flock. The shepherd lovingly cares for the flock, and lies down his life for the flock. So your mischaracterization is telling of the weakness and lack of proof for your rejection of human eldership.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06Sloan, the scriptures characterized everyone as liars when God said that all men are liars. But , of course I am wrong to say it. I posted the scriptures that tell us where to place our trust and they don't say it is to be in men. But you say it is in men. Sorry I will believe the scriptures.

I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted. See, you take everything ot an illogical end just to justify your argument. Neither did I ever say our trust was to be in men over God, please if I have show me. But this is another of your strawmen in the ranks of your scarecrow army that you use to hedge your arguments.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06You said "I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10." --- Well don't hold your breath. If I went to the trouble you would not believe anything I said so why should I bother?

I won't be holding my breath because I know you can't explain it, the passages explain themselves.

Again I will pose the proposition that your disease with this topic, and my questions toward Robert is because you yourself don't go to church. And all you are doing is trying to quell your conviction by justifing yourself before men. But with all your dead horses and all your straw men you fail to prove why we shouldn't go to chuch over and over again.

You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."

The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.

Your "proposition" is just that "YOUR PROPOSITION." Frankly, you don't know what I do but you think you do. There is no need for me to justify myself before men. Men cannot save me or keep me from being saved. Nor does your proposition mean anything to me.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 20:50:13You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."

The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.

What you don't see is when a man is born again he puts off the old man and his works (cf. Eph 4:22, Col 3:8-9), but since everthing that is admonishment to repent and live godly instantly becomes works based salvation to you all such verses fall on deaf ears. I bet my proposition is spot on though, and that would explain why you reject eldership, teachers, preachers, assembly, etc.

You should be honest and examine youself, and stop taking everything said to you like this as a challenge but as a loving but serious rebuke (Pro 27:5).

Jesus said, Beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils. and they will scourage you in their synagogues.

When I was going to church the deacons were always having meetings about what I was teaching. Sometimes two or three of them would pop into my class and sit there and listen to my teaching.  I was never touched physically, but I was mentally abused.  I never did last very long in any church.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 22:20:04

Jesus said, Beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils. and they will scourage you in their synagogues.

When I was going to church the deacons were always having meetings about what I was teaching. Sometimes two or three of them would pop into my class and sit there and listen to my teaching.  I was never touched physically, but I was mentally abused.  I never did last very long in any church.

Robert,

I don't believe Jesus was warning us to beware of our Christian brothers...

Could it be possiable there was actually something wrong with your teachings? I mean if every church you visit has a problem with your teachings, wouldn't the common denominator be your doctrine?

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 22:18:27

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 20:50:13You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."

The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.

What you don't see is when a man is born again he puts off the old man and his works (cf. Eph 4:22, Col 3:8-9), but since everthing that is admonishment to repent and live godly instantly becomes works based salvation to you all such verses fall on deaf ears. I bet my proposition is spot on though, and that would explain why you reject eldership, teachers, preachers, assembly, etc.

You should be honest and examine youself, and stop taking everything said to you like this as a challenge but as a loving but serious rebuke (Pro 27:5).

So I am to blindly follow men who CLAIM they are teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's. Just because they claim they are. And I am to tell others that they should listen to these teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's because God has placed them over us. --- And if they are not really God's teachers, overseers, and Shepard's, God will save me anyway because I yielded to them and told others to listen to them and many went to hell because of it.

That just doesn't make sense to me. The scriptures tell me that I will know the truth and the truth will make me free.

When Jesus came the religious leaders (teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's) were corrupt. Before Paul died many of his followers had left him and were teaching false doctrines and claiming that they were teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's.

My question to you is how do you know who your teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are??? And do you listen to them blindly??

This is a serious question since it is you want me to see it as you do.

Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today.  It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather.  The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously.  When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa.  It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all.  We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.

We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others.  I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.

I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around.  Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 22:18:27

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 20:50:13You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."

The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.

What you don't see is when a man is born again he puts off the old man and his works (cf. Eph 4:22, Col 3:8-9), but since everthing that is admonishment to repent and live godly instantly becomes works based salvation to you all such verses fall on deaf ears. I bet my proposition is spot on though, and that would explain why you reject eldership, teachers, preachers, assembly, etc.

You should be honest and examine youself, and stop taking everything said to you like this as a challenge but as a loving but serious rebuke (Pro 27:5).

I have never said that a child of God will not WANT to stop sinning and want to do good works. Just as Paul did not WANT to sin and wante3d to do good in Romans 7. But a child of God will continue to sin while he lives in a body of sinful flesh.

The problem is that many seem to think they are not sinning anymore. They think their sinful flesh has changed and they do not sin any longer. These cannot accept the fact that they still sin. After all aren't they born again and haven't they put off the old man and his works like it says in Eph 4:22, and Col 3:8-9?

Now it is you that should be honest and tell us if you still sin just like the rest of us.

Quote from: John 1:1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:48:11
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today.  It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather.  The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously.  When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa.  It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all.  We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.

We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others.  I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.

I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around.  Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.

Thanks for your input. I think you are right on. Those that would be teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's must earn that position from the children of God.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:56:49

Quote from: John 1:1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:48:11
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today.  It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather.  The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously.  When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa.  It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all.  We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.

We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others.  I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.

I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around.  Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.

Thanks for your input. I think you are right on. Those that would be teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's must earn that position from the children of God.

It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.

Quote from: John 1:1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 07:04:21

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:56:49

Quote from: John 1:1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:48:11
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today.  It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather.  The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously.  When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa.  It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all.  We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.

We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others.  I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.

I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around.  Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.

Thanks for your input. I think you are right on. Those that would be teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's must earn that position from the children of God.

It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.

Now we know what it means in Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-10.

Charles Sloan

I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

I'll agree with 1 and 4, I'll let Charles discuss the rest. :)

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:35:30My question to you is how do you know who your teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are??? And do you listen to them blindly??

This is a serious question since it is you want me to see it as you do.

I appreciate this question since it seems like a sincere one amidst so much rhetoric. I agree there are false teachers in the world, I never said there isn't. But just because there are some false teachers in the world doesn't mean that everyone is.

The Bible says in 1John 4:1 "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." So trying the spirits is the true test for anyone who claim to be an apostle, prophet, teacher, or pastor. And how do you try them you may ask? Well against the Word of God of course.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:49:39The problem is that many seem to think they are not sinning anymore. They think their sinful flesh has changed and they do not sin any longer. These cannot accept the fact that they still sin. After all aren't they born again and haven't they put off the old man and his works like it says in Eph 4:22, and Col 3:8-9?

Now it is you that should be honest and tell us if you still sin just like the rest of us.

I never said that we don't sin anymore oh master of scarecrows. Neither did I even remotely allude to the idea that I don't sin anymore. I probably sin more than the rest of you to be completely honest. But I don't see how this adds to the discussion other than as an effort to again mischaracterize me as someone who is teaching the false doctrine of 'sinless perfection', which is completely foreign to all my responses.

My entire point id you are trying to make all men perpetual liars, when we are no longer walking in the course of this world. So pastors and teachers are not all liars like you are making them out to be so you can be justified in rejecting church attendance and submitting to the eldership.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 08:01:17

Quote from: John 1:1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 07:04:21
It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.

Now we know what it means in Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-10.

So now you agree there really are elders and shepherds, and the work is given to them by God alone. Just like I said in the first place by citing Acts 20:28.

So now why do you choose to reject the idea that we need to be apart of a fellowship of believers that submit to an eldership if they are made shepherds of the flock by God according to your own admission?

Comeon Richard be reasonable!

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan

I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Robert,

I agree with the first one, and thats as far as I need to go.

Again, I would like to point out as I did in your previous post: If you visit multiple churches and all the leadership there have a problem with your teachings, wouldn't it stand to reason there might be something wrong with your doctrine?

You don't believe that you are so infallible that you can't be in error, do you?

replace former with initial type of leader. whoops!!! :)

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:55:29

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:35:30My question to you is how do you know who your teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are??? And do you listen to them blindly??

This is a serious question since it is you want me to see it as you do.

I appreciate this question since it seems like a sincere one amidst so much rhetoric. I agree there are false teachers in the world, I never said there isn't. But just because there are some false teachers in the world doesn't mean that everyone is.

The Bible says in 1John 4:1 "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." So trying the spirits is the true test for anyone who claim to be an apostle, prophet, teacher, or pastor. And how do you try them you may ask? Well against the Word of God of course.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:49:39The problem is that many seem to think they are not sinning anymore. They think their sinful flesh has changed and they do not sin any longer. These cannot accept the fact that they still sin. After all aren't they born again and haven't they put off the old man and his works like it says in Eph 4:22, and Col 3:8-9?

Now it is you that should be honest and tell us if you still sin just like the rest of us.

I never said that we don't sin anymore oh master of scarecrows. Neither did I even remotely allude to the idea that I don't sin anymore. I probably sin more than the rest of you to be completely honest. But I don't see how this adds to the discussion other than as an effort to again mischaracterize me as someone who is teaching the false doctrine of 'sinless perfection', which is completely foreign to all my responses.

My entire point id you are trying to make all men perpetual liars, when we are no longer walking in the course of this world. So pastors and teachers are not all liars like you are making them out to be so you can be justified in rejecting church attendance and submitting to the eldership.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 08:01:17

Quote from: John 1:1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 07:04:21
It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.

Now we know what it means in Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-10.

So now you agree there really are elders and shepherds, and the work is given to them by God alone. Just like I said in the first place by citing Acts 20:28.

So now why do you choose to reject the idea that we need to be apart of a fellowship of believers that submit to an eldership if they are made shepherds of the flock by God according to your own admission?

Comeon Richard be reasonable!

I am being reasonable. I have been showing that many so called teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are not teaching the true gospel of grace and I am on this forum pointing that fact out. It seem you are saying I can't do that because I am not in a man ran physical organized church that you think has been placed over me.

I have stated, on this forum, that I attend a Sunday morning Sunday school class, a Sunday night Bible Study group, and a Tuesday night Bible study group. It is my contention that each of these groups meets the definition of a church. In these classes each member teaches on rotational basis. Two of these classes asked me to be their teacher but I believe I can contribute by participating in the discussions just as the others do. Therefore we have many teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's in these classes.

I do not attend the formal church services because they do not edify the knowledge of the church. They are feel good social moral teachings that put a smoke screen to cover up the fact that everyone is just as much a sinner in the flesh as anyone else.

When I started going to this church the membership was about 300. Now it is over 5,000. The pastor's salary was the same as the average salary of the congregation. Today his salary would make many doctors envious. How did it get that way, because the pastor seeded the committees with those that would support a higher salary. Those on the committees that objected were not encouraged to stay on the committee. How do I know that, my wife was on the committee while this was happening and was told she was causing a problem for the church. Not many of the original 300 are still at the church. Of those that are, few attend the formal services.

I believe you will say all of the 300, and myself, are rebelling against the authority that was placed over us. That we should go along like good sheep and ignore the fact that the truth of God is not taught. Just who do we think we are anyway?????

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 10:04:48

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan

I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Robert,

I agree with the first one, and thats as far as I need to go.

Again, I would like to point out as I did in your previous post: If you visit multiple churches and all the leadership there have a problem with your teachings, wouldn't it stand to reason there might be something wrong with your doctrine?

You don't believe that you are so infallible that you can't be in error, do you?

I would like to comment on the above. The Bible teaches that in the last days the church ran by men will become apostate.

Do you believe that the churches of today are not apostate? Everyone of Robert's 7 points are what the churches should be teaching but they aren't.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Which one(s) of the above would you disagree with?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:12:19
I am being reasonable. I have been showing that many so called teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are not teaching the true gospel of grace and I am on this forum pointing that fact out. It seem you are saying I can't do that because I am not in a man ran physical organized church that you think has been placed over me.

I never said you can or can't do anything based on your church affiliation General Scarecrow. I am just encouraging Robert and others like him who don't attend a group to find a fellowship they can get along with. Since you admit to attending, it doesn't even make sense now why you are withstanding me on this issue. Now you just seem like a huge hypocrite.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:12:19I do not attend the formal church services because they do not edify the knowledge of the church. They are feel good social moral teachings that put a smoke screen to cover up the fact that everyone is just as much a sinner in the flesh as anyone else.

And that is your choice, but as long as you are in some kind of fellowship I'm happy for you. But I don't think it fair for you to judge everyone in a church service as making smokescreens for their flesh. Could some people be there to sincerely worship God in spirit and in truth?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:12:19I believe you will say all of the 300, and myself, are rebelling against the authority that was placed over us. That we should go along like good sheep and ignore the fact that the truth of God is not taught. Just who do we think we are anyway?????

I believe you believe what you want to believe about what I believe, contrary to what I believe or what I tell you I believe... (getting dizzy) I am not passing judgement on you or your fellowship because you choose to attend or not attend a service or whatever you do. I'm just glad to hear that you have a group that you study and regularly meet with.

Although I don't like the idea of a division in a congregation, but thats really none of my business. And besides I don't know the whole story anyways.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:28:52I would like to comment on the above. The Bible teaches that in the last days the church ran by men will become apostate.

Do you believe that the churches of today are not apostate? Everyone of Robert's 7 points are what the churches should be teaching but they aren't.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Which one(s) of the above would you disagree with?

Robert, I mean Richard: If a church lives up to the first point they will meet the rest.

Its just that simple.

If you do not adhere to each of the seven points you are in a state of apostasy.

All seven points can be proven with scripture and are the gospel.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:59:28

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:28:52I would like to comment on the above. The Bible teaches that in the last days the church ran by men will become apostate.

Do you believe that the churches of today are not apostate? Everyone of Robert's 7 points are what the churches should be teaching but they aren't.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Which one(s) of the above would you disagree with?

Robert, I mean Richard: If a church lives up to the first point they will meet the rest.

Its just that simple.

Many think they are living up to the first one but their interpretation of the word of God is not correct. They can't accept the rest of the 7 because of their theology. Again my question. Which one(s) of the 7 do you agree on. I can say I agree to all of them. How about you?

I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:03:20
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?

I'll try again. Which one(s) of the 7 line up with scriptures in your opinion?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:08:10

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:03:20
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?

I'll try again. Which one(s) of the 7 line up with scriptures in your opinion?

Listen Rich,

Your list isn't sacred to me, if it pans out with Scripture then prove it. I'm not doing the leg work of matching the passages to your points. I know they match, but you should have the verses that correspond to your points.

Otherwise, I'm not going to concede to your list at all.

Charles Sloan

If you don't concede to the list, then you don't believe the gospel.  The gospel is far more than Christ died for our sins.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 16:19:26
Charles Sloan

If you don't concede to the list, then you don't believe the gospel.  The gospel is far more than Christ died for our sins.

Robert, your list isn't the Gospel.

I asked for Scriptural support for the points on your list before I agreed, you have provided none.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 16:19:26
Charles Sloan

If you don't concede to the list, then you don't believe the gospel.  The gospel is far more than Christ died for our sins.

I don't know that I agree with every point on your list, particularly the wording of a few of your points. Even so, why is your list THE list when it comes to the gospel, Robert? Could you please support each point in your list with Scripture, as well as adherence to the list itself as a measure against apostacy? Furthermore, why does the list stop at just 7 points? You left out several things, including the resurrection of Jesus from the dead which is a crucial part of the gospel according to the Scriptures... And as far as "Christ died for our sins" is concerned, your list doesn't even say that... How come?

James Rondon

The list is just a thumb print of the gospel,  Will expound later, I have an appointment.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan

I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Oh good more rules. So it is the Robert religion statement of faith.

Now you are a denomination. Finally, I thought we would never get here.

1. All agree I hope.

2. Lifts up Jesus Christ, Yes.

3. The Son of God, God in the Flesh. The new Adam that takes away the sins of the many.

4. Christ did fulfill the law.

5. No. I have no authority over Jesus Christ, and I am accepted because of Him.

6. You need to explain this one according to what you believe. I have put to death the old man, yes.

7. Yes.

FTL

#2 bugs me the most, not sure if I want to glorify man, he's not worthy of that, only God.

Looking over the list again, it is interesting that nowhere in it is the mention of sin...

I wonder why that is?

This is what I find troubling:

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:015.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.

Where in the Bible does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name?

Agreed... Sounds backwards.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:12:21

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:08:10

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:03:20
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?

I'll try again. Which one(s) of the 7 line up with scriptures in your opinion?

Listen Rich,

Your list isn't sacred to me, if it pans out with Scripture then prove it. I'm not doing the leg work of matching the passages to your points. I know they match, but you should have the verses that correspond to your points.

Otherwise, I'm not going to concede to your list at all.

First of all it wasn't my list. There is no need to do any leg work. They have been discussed on this forum many times.

I don't think you are being open and honest with us on this forum. You hide what you really believe.

Quote from: Harold on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 16:43:26

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan

I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.

1.  Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2.  Does it glorify Christ or man.
3.  Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4.  Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5.  Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6.  Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7.  Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.

Oh good more rules. So it is the Robert religion statement of faith.

Now you are a denomination. Finally, I thought we would never get here.

1. All agree I hope.

2. Lifts up Jesus Christ, Yes.

3. The Son of God, God in the Flesh. The new Adam that takes away the sins of the many.

4. Christ did fulfill the law.

5. No. I have no authority over Jesus Christ, and I am accepted because of Him.

6. You need to explain this one according to what you believe. I have put to death the old man, yes.

7. Yes.

FTL

Could you elaborate #6 for me? How have you put to death the old man?

Some say it is not sinning.

Some say it is no longer placing any faith in their flesh being able to stop sining by controling their will and because of it they have no confidence in the flesh. These deny their ability to stop sinning (deny self) and trust in Jesus to save them.