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Charles Sloan

The whole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace.  If a book in the New Testament Bible does not reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace I am not sure that it is inspired.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 18:59:54

Quote from: dayspring08 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 17:46:33

Quote from: RichardBurger on Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 12:49:01

Quote from: dayspring08 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:56:28

Quote from: RichardBurger on Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08,  You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."

Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?

If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?

You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.

I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message.  Are you saying that you don't sin?

There is sin and there is SIN.  Do you know the difference between them?  I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.

dayspring08

Now, now, I asked two questions and you did not answer either one of them. But now you expect me to answer yours. A little one sided isn't it?

You asked, "Are you saying that you don't sin?"

My answer; no, I have NEVER said that. --- I HAVE said we still sin in the flesh and will always sin in the flesh. --- How you can equate that to my saying I don't sin is amazing.

However, God says I am cleansed, justified, sanctified and saved because I trust in Him; in what He did on the cross.

My faith is in the promise of God, "in Christ." That his work on the cross pays for ALL of my sins in the flesh. --- I am placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. When God sees me, He sees me through Christ and I am sinless.

Don't you know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven? You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that does not sin and will enter heaven, later to be joined to a resurrected body like Christ has. -- Don't you know that the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (John 3:16-18 - 16:8-9). If you think your sin are condeming you, then you do not believe in Jesus.

You are the one telling me that God has given you the power to not sin in the flesh ""indicating"" that others who sin are either not saved or not using the power. --- And then, when I asked you if you still sin you said yes.

Why are you on this forum preaching that others must stop sinning when you haven't?

It's obvious to me that you have only half or less of a Bible.  Do you honestly think you can separate your sins from yourself?  That is ridiculous.  If you are sinning God sees that sin!  If you don't ask for forgivesness and forsake that sin, it will cost you your soul.

James1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Does your Bible have the book of James in it or have you took it out?  Why do you not believe the Bible? 
I have witnessed to many people like you and it's usually unfruitful and useless.

dayspring08

Martin Luther said the book of James is a book of Straw. It is totally void of the grace of God and filled with the law. ---- And he was right.

The Book of James was written to the Jews (James 1:1) who were under the law. It was not written to the grace church.

dayspring08, I believe the Bible. When it says who the book was written to I accept it. I don't say it was written to everyone else. --- If you say it was written to the Gentiles in the grace church then you obviously don't believe James in chapter 1, verse 1.

So who is it that does not believe the Bible?

Yeah, Martin Luther did a lot of talking about a lot of things but he wasn't always right.  Other books in the Bible back up what James has written. For instance the book of Romans - that you refuse to digest.
Quite frankly I am tired of   
I don't think we need to discuss anything any further.  I will leave you to believe what makes you happy.

dayspring

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 14:00:18

Quote from: RichardBurger on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:48:15

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:39:28

Quote from: RichardBurger on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:35:33Sorry if I am butting in but didn't James, Peter and John agree to stop going to the Gentiles and let Paul go to them?-- If Paul was/is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and James, Peter and John agreed to go only to the Jews then why is the grace church built on Peter? ---- (Galatians 2:7-10)

Does that mean that only Paul's writtings are consider inspired?

I never said anything about, or brought up, ""inspired.""

I believe the Bible is given to us by God. I believe that James, Peter and John agreed to go to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles.  -- In other words I believe the words written in the Bible. How about you?  -- My question is a vailid one, why do people think the grace church is built on Peter? -- Please answer the question if you know.

I never heard of a "grace church", as if there are more than one. But Peter was the if Apostle sent to the Gentiles if I remember correctly. And the first sermon delievered on the day of Pentecost was from Peter as well. So I believe a case can be made that Peter was the founding Apostles for the church. Even Jesus commissioned Peter specifically to feed the flock (John 21:15-17).

But you are rabbit trailing my question, do you consider the writtings of Peter, James, Jude, etc. of the same inspiration as the writtings of Paul?

Since you will not acknowledge what Paul wrote in Gal. it means that you do not believe what he wrote. Doesn't that mean you do not think the book of Galatians 2:7-10 is inspired?

I will answer your question. Yes, I consider the writings of Peter, James, Jude, etc. to have the same inspiration as Paul's writings. They were all men of God. --- But I do not think you can believe one and not the other. THEREFORE there must be a reason for differences. Only when you understand """WHY""" the reasons can you see why they exist.

For example; What James wrote in the book of James was written to the Jews (James 1:1)who were given the law. It was not written to the Gentiles who were not given the law. If anyone insists that the book of James was written to the Gentiles then they ignore what James wrote in James 1:1 making James a liar.

Read Eph. 3:2 The church of today is the church in the dispensation of the grace of God

Therefore the grace church.

Read Titus 3:7 The church of today is justified by His Grace

Therefore the grace church.

Just to name a few.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 14:11:06
Charles Sloan

The whole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace.  If a book in the New Testament Bible does not reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace I am not sure that it is inspired.

This is what I am getting at, and thank you for your honesty.

Is there some books you believe not to be inspired?

Charles Sloan

Not really sure.  But because of the gospel we have the freedom to examine all things and to judge all things.  We even have the freedom to be wrong.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 16:35:44
Charles Sloan

Not really sure.  But because of the gospel we have the freedom to examine all things and to judge all things.  We even have the freedom to be wrong.

I think you need to submit to the Scripture as the greatest and highest authority, not judge them based on your interpretation of what the gospel is. That is where I think all your trouble and disagreements are stemming from. I believe you have made your understanding of the gospel law, reinvented the Bible as a result. Although I agree with your views on our complete need for dependency on Christ, I cannot agree with your theology and dismissal of Scripture. I think you should let the Bible be the Bible, the Word of God to man.

But this is just my thoughts, not meant as an indictment.

Charles Sloan

I use the Bible for what it was intended to be,  A witness for Christ.  It is not the Christians Thora.

The Bible can be separated into to entities.  Law and Gospel.  The law says "do,"  The gospel says, "done"  most of the problems are in mixing the do's with the done's.

Christians are not under the law, they are under grace. This means that I am not subject to a lot of religious instructions.  The religious find this offensive because they want to be motivated by law.  My motivation is grace not law.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 17:03:18Christians are not under the law, they are under grace. This means that I am not subject to a lot of religious instructions.  The religious find this offensive because they want to be motivated by law.  My motivation is grace not law.

But Robert, there is a law under Christ and faith establishes the law. Otherwise what you are doing is promoting antinomianism. I mean look at those that Jesus rejects on the day of judgement in Matthew 7:23, he calls them workers of iniquity or lawlessness. If there is no law, them why would they be rejected for working lawlessness?

Your hermeneutic renders the simplest passages unreconcilable to the whole of Scripture.

Charles Sloan

We are not called to live by the letter of the law.  We are called to live by the Spirit of Christ.  Living by the Spirit is how Christ wants us to live.  Living by Spirit is a life of gratitude for what Christ has done for us.  Living by law means that you are trying to be obedient because you think you have to.  Living by Spirit is living in the light of the gospel.  In the gospel we are complete in him.  We are not trying to be better than what he has made us.  Living in the Spirit means that we are resting in his righteousness, we are resting in his work.  Living by law means that you are striving to be holy.  Living by the Spirit means that we are complete in him.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 17:26:20Living by Spirit is a life of gratitude for what Christ has done for us.  Living by law means that you are trying to be obedient because you think you have to. 

This is your entire problem, what you believe in is a false dichotomy. It is not an either/or, either you live in gratitude or you try to be obedient. It is both, because of your gratitude you live your life in obedience.

But if you really believe and teach that believers aren't to live their lives better than the sinners they were before they came to the Lord, there is something seriously wrong with you and your doctrine. That is called antinomian heresy, and the grace of God used for licence.

Charles Sloan

Now when did I say that we are to live our lives like we did when we were unsaved sinners?  This is what I like about the forum.  The religious are always saying that I said things that I have never said. What I did say is that we are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  He knows that you are a sinner.  Do you think he doesn't know that?
We should always be confessing that we don't measure up.  We are falling short of what is required.  That is unless you think you have attained.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 20:28:45
Charles Sloan

Now when did I say that we are to live our lives like we did when we were unsaved sinners?  This is what I like about the forum.  The religious are always saying that I said things that I have never said. What I did say is that we are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  He knows that you are a sinner.  Do you think he doesn't know that?
We should always be confessing that we don't measure up.  We are falling short of what is required.  That is unless you think you have attained.

The religious... does this make you feel better if you can group everyone that doesn't agree with your theology under one stereotype?

So living your life as you did when you were lost is somehow different than living your life as a sinner? Your semantics do not conceal the spirit at work within your teachings very well. Your belief that "we are not trying to be better than what he has made us" sounds kind of like you are not willing to repent of your sins. God did not make you the sinner that you are, you made yourself a sinner when you rebelled against heaven with your sin. It is not Gods fault because you are fallen, it is your fault. Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and every preacher through out history said the same thing: "Repent or perish..."

This is a command to you and me alike. Call me religious, legalist, judizer or whatever you want. Just remember I never shunned to tell you the whole counsel of God, neither will I not make light of sin. Which is exactly what you are doing with such unbiblical doctrine as "Living our lives before the Lord as sinners".

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 20:48:45

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 20:28:45
Charles Sloan

Now when did I say that we are to live our lives like we did when we were unsaved sinners?  This is what I like about the forum.  The religious are always saying that I said things that I have never said. What I did say is that we are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  He knows that you are a sinner.  Do you think he doesn't know that?
We should always be confessing that we don't measure up.  We are falling short of what is required.  That is unless you think you have attained.

The religious... does this make you feel better if you can group everyone that doesn't agree with your theology under one stereotype?

So living your life as you did when you were lost is somehow different than living your life as a sinner? Your semantics do not conceal the spirit at work within your teachings very well. Your belief that "we are not trying to be better than what he has made us" sounds kind of like you are not willing to repent of your sins. God did not make you the sinner that you are, you made yourself a sinner when you rebelled against heaven with your sin. It is not Gods fault because you are fallen, it is your fault. Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and every preacher through out history said the same thing: "Repent or perish..."

This is a command to you and me alike. Call me religious, legalist, judizer or whatever you want. Just remember I never shunned to tell you the whole counsel of God, neither will I not make light of sin. Which is exactly what you are doing with such unbiblical doctrine as "Living our lives before the Lord as sinners".

Amazing! The whole counsel of God is that we are sinners and need Him (Jesus) to wash away our sins of the flesh by His blood. We are born in sin, in a body with a sinful nature. With a will to survive at all costs and to have comfort and pleasure at all cost.

Where have you been during your lifetime. Tell me of all the sinless people you have met.
TO ME, you sound like the Pharsee who prayed telling God how wonderful he was. Not like the beggar who prayed admitting he was a sinner and because of it he was justified.

You said, "The religious... does this make you feel better if you can group everyone that doesn't agree with your theology under one stereotype?"
--- That is the black pot calling kettle black. You do the same thing.

Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.

One thing I notice about the RELIGIOUS is that they are always writing and talking as if they don't sin any longer, only the others sin. They try to decieve others and only fool themselves. They certainly don't fool God.

Well hello there captain scarecrow, I haven't heard from you in awhile. I figured you were to busy stuffing straw to comment on my exchanges with Pate, but it seems you have caught up on production. So I guess now you are going to be parading the latest and greatest of Richard's épouvantail à moineaux down the GCM catwalk...

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09
Amazing! The whole counsel of God is that we are sinners and need Him (Jesus) to wash away our sins of the flesh by His blood. We are born in sin, in a body with a sinful nature. With a will to survive at all costs and to have comfort and pleasure at all cost.

Yeah, and don't forget repentance. Since that seems to be the glaring omission from both you and Pate's so called "Historical Gospel" renditions. The whole counsel would include everything, not just the parts that fit with the antinomian theology that you and your posse are promoting.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Where have you been during your lifetime. Tell me of all the sinless people you have met.
TO ME, you sound like the Pharsee who prayed telling God how wonderful he was. Not like the beggar who prayed admitting he was a sinner and because of it he was justified.

Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.

TO ME and OTHERS on this board you and Pate's doctrines would be found in Jude 1:4, "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" Since thats what grace is without repentance.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.

You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09One thing I notice about the RELIGIOUS is that they are always writing and talking as if they don't sin any longer, only the others sin. They try to decieve others and only fool themselves. They certainly don't fool God.

Scarecrows, scarecrows, everywhere.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 12:50:09
Well hello there captain scarecrow, I haven't heard from you in awhile. I figured you were to busy stuffing straw to comment on my exchanges with Pate, but it seems you have caught up on production. So I guess now you are going to be parading the latest and greatest of Richard's épouvantail à moineaux down the GCM catwalk...

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09
Amazing! The whole counsel of God is that we are sinners and need Him (Jesus) to wash away our sins of the flesh by His blood. We are born in sin, in a body with a sinful nature. With a will to survive at all costs and to have comfort and pleasure at all cost.

Yeah, and don't forget repentance. Since that seems to be the glaring omission from both you and Pate's so called "Historical Gospel" renditions. The whole counsel would include everything, not just the parts that fit with the antinomian theology that you and your posse are promoting.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Where have you been during your lifetime. Tell me of all the sinless people you have met.
TO ME, you sound like the Pharsee who prayed telling God how wonderful he was. Not like the beggar who prayed admitting he was a sinner and because of it he was justified.

Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.

TO ME and OTHERS on this board you and Pate's doctrines would be found in Jude 1:4, "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" Since thats what grace is without repentance.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.

You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09One thing I notice about the RELIGIOUS is that they are always writing and talking as if they don't sin any longer, only the others sin. They try to decieve others and only fool themselves. They certainly don't fool God.

Scarecrows, scarecrows, everywhere.

Wonderful! --- I noticed you left out this part of my reply. "Repenting has become your license to sin."

Anyone that acknowledges they are sinful and need the blood of Christ ""ARE,"" in fact, repenting. But the religious can't understand this because it is not a religious ritual.

You said, "Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.

Then why do you say Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins? You have, in the statement above, admitted you still sin too.

To get on a forum and say others are sinning when in fact you sin too fits the definition of a hypocrite doesn't it?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48
Wonderful! --- I noticed you left out this part of my reply. "Repenting has become your license to sin."

Maybe you should read the posts instead of just quoting them:

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 12:50:09

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.

You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?

Now let me reply to one other thing (as if you will actually read it...):

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48You said, "Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.

Then why do you say Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins? You have, in the statement above, admitted you still sin too.

When did I say that Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins?

Please, point that one out for me.

Theres a huge difference in admitting your sins, and admitting you are living your life as a sinner. And then encouraging others to follow you and do the same. That is called antinomianism, your subtle reactionism to what you consider legalism.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 17:47:41
Harold

Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the one he stated.

To which I replied believe what? But I got no answer.

Also:

Must believe the historical gospel.

Must believe Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.

Must believe that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.

There's a few.

FTL

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:22:42

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48
Wonderful! --- I noticed you left out this part of my reply. "Repenting has become your license to sin."

Maybe you should read the posts instead of just quoting them:

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 12:50:09

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.

You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?

Now let me reply to one other thing:

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48You said, "Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.

Then why do you say Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins? You have, in the statement above, admitted you still sin too.

When did I say that Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins?

Please, point that one out for me.

Theres a huge difference in admitting your sins, and admitting you are living your life as a sinner. And then encouraging others to follow you and do the same. That is called antinomianism, your subtle reactionism to what you consider legalism.

Well I don't see the difference. --- If you admit you still sin then you are living as a sinner just as much as Robert, myself, and everyone else.

Show me where Robert, or I, encourage others to sin. That is the strawman you are trying to build.

Both Robert, and I, say we are sinners saved by God's grace. But it seems you can't say that. To do so would be YOU telling everyone else to live in sin (your logic). So the religous go around trying to imply they are not living in a body of sinful flesh that sins. They are above that kind of life. Then, out of the other side of their mouth they say they still sin.

I can agree that there is a huge difference in living with God acknowledging you are sinful and those that try and live before God claiming they are not sinning. Those claiming they are not sinning are being deceitful with God.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:57:12
I can agree that there is a huge difference in living with God acknowledging you are sinful and those that try and live before God claiming they are not sinning. Those claiming they are not sinning are being deceitful with God.

See this is the problem Richard, no ones saying they are not sinning.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:57:12Show me where Robert, or I, encourage others to sin. That is the strawman you are trying to build.

I'm building a strawman, thats funny coming from the master.

Well, you asked me to show you, so here you go:

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 19:39:46We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  Why? because we fail to obey the law.

That is the antinomian anthem my friend.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 14:10:04

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:57:12Show me where Robert, or I, encourage others to sin. That is the strawman you are trying to build.

I'm building a strawman, thats funny coming from the master.

Well, you asked me to show you, so here you go:

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 19:39:46We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  Why? because we fail to obey the law.

That is the antinomian anthem my friend.

Would you rather try to live your life before Him claiming you are not a sinner?? I don't think He will believe you since you have already admitted you still sin.

Quote from: Harold on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:35:06

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 17:47:41
Harold

Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the one he stated.

To which I replied believe what? But I got no answer.

Also:

Must believe the historical gospel.

Must believe Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.

Must believe that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.

There's a few.

FTL

Richard the rules you asked for........

FTL

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 14:14:09Would you rather try to live your life before Him claiming you are not a sinner?? I don't think He will believe you since you have already admitted you still sin.

So you have moved from the propaganda tactic of strawmen to using false dichotomy's. Well at least you are making progress, even if it is in the wrong direction.

So according to you I either have to live as a sinner, or I have to live claiming I am not a sinner. Could there be another option of trying to not live your life as a sinner? Maybe could we add that one to the ballot?

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 16:58:43

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 14:14:09Would you rather try to live your life before Him claiming you are not a sinner?? I don't think He will believe you since you have already admitted you still sin.

So you have moved from the propaganda tactic of strawmen to using false dichotomy's. Well at least you are making progress, even if it is in the wrong direction.

So according to you I either have to live as a sinner, or I have to live claiming I am not a sinner. Could there be another option of trying to not live your life as a sinner? Maybe could we add that one to the ballot?

Are you saying you can live your life without sinning. I thought you said you still sin.

The truth is that you are living your life as a sinner and you know it.

No child of God WANTS to sin but they do, and just as Paul admitted he still sined in Romans 7 a child of God must admit that he/she still sins or he/she is being dishonest.

Are you being dishonest???

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00Are you saying you can live your life without sinning. I thought you said you still sin.

I think it has been made abundantly clear that I have neither said, nor am I saying that. If anyone is being dishonest in this discussion it's obviously you, since no one could have possibly arrived at that conclusion if they were reading my posts. And yet you continue making these outlandish accusations.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00The truth is that you are living your life as a sinner and you know it.

I think you need to bridle your tongue and stop accusing Christians of living lawless lives.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00No child of God WANTS to sin but they do, and just as Paul admitted he still sined in Romans 7 a child of God must admit that he/she still sins or he/she is being dishonest.

Are you being dishonest???

I have admitted repeatedly that I am a sinner, but that doesn't seem to satisfy you neither does it curb your accusations of living a lawless life toward a brother Jesus commanded you to love. If anyone should be honestly examining themselves, I suggest that might be you.

But allow me the courtesy to ask you a question since I have answered yours.

Rom 8:13 
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Question: Do you live after the the flesh (live as a sinner), or do you mortify the deeds of the body?

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 10:21:46

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00Are you saying you can live your life without sinning. I thought you said you still sin.

I think it has been made abundantly clear that I have neither said, nor am I saying that. If anyone is being dishonest in this discussion it's obviously you, since no one could have possibly arrived at that conclusion if they were reading my posts. And yet you continue making these outlandish accusations.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00The truth is that you are living your life as a sinner and you know it.

I think you need to bridle your tongue and stop accusing Christians of living lawless lives.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00No child of God WANTS to sin but they do, and just as Paul admitted he still sined in Romans 7 a child of God must admit that he/she still sins or he/she is being dishonest.

Are you being dishonest???

I have admitted repeatedly that I am a sinner, but that doesn't seem to satisfy you neither does it curb your accusations of living a lawless life toward a brother Jesus commanded you to love. If anyone should be honestly examining themselves, I suggest that might be you.

But allow me the courtesy to ask you a question since I have answered yours.

Rom 8:13 
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Question: Do you live after the the flesh (live as a sinner), or do you mortify the deeds of the body?

No one is accusing you of not being a Christian. We are trying to find why we see this differently. If you are not willing to discuss this in a mature manner then we will stop.

What I am saying is that since you admit you sin in the flesh just like all the rest of us how can you also claim to be living a sinless life? The logic escapes me.

--- How can anyone sin and then claim to be living without sin? ---

Call it what you want, living in sin, living lawlessly, living sinful, the truth is that everyone still sins in the flesh.

Now for your scriptures; "Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Romans 8:12, Therefore, brethern,  we are debtors --- not to the flesh to live according to the flesh.

The truth is that to live after the flesh is to place confidence in the flesh, confidence in the flesh's ability to stop sinning. That means faith in what a person, living in the flesh, can do to stop sinning. --- A Child of God has placed his/her faith in the cross, that Jesus destroyed sins power to condemn us. This is the difference between living in the flesh and living in the Spirit.

You said, "Do you live after the the flesh (live as a sinner), or do you mortify the deeds of the body?"

Way to go! You want me to say I do not live in the flesh as a sinner. But I, in the flesh,  am a sinner, just like everyone else.

--- I mortify the deeds of the body by placing no faith (confidence) in it's abilty to stop sinning. I live after the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh. Romans 8:1-11

Now how about you? Are you confident that you, in the flesh, can live without commiting a sin?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22What I am saying is that since you admit you sin in the flesh just like all the rest of us how can you also claim to be living a sinless life? The logic escapes me.

--- How can anyone sin and then claim to be living without sin? ---

Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.

I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.

Okay, I'm sorry for calling you names and insulting you. But Richard, you are making it very difficult for me to discuss this with you by fashioning me into a strawman who says I am sinless when I never did. I know you would really like me to say that cause it would make it easier to dismiss me as a sinless perfectionist to justify your antinomian doctrines. But I'm sorry that I can't oblige.

I AM NOT SINLESS.

I hope you got that this time.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22I mortify the deeds of the body by placing no faith (confidence) in it's ability to stop sinning. I live after the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh. Romans 8:1-11

Now how about you? Are you confident that you, in the flesh, can live without committing a sin?

So you don't actually mortify the deeds of your flesh, but you consider a mental resignation of your flesh to sin as mortification? I believe that upon a study of the Greek you will find Paul was saying he actually mortifies the deeds of his body, not that he was just making some mental acquiescence to his inability.

As for my confidence I believe in him who will deliver me from this body of death (cf. Rom 7:21-24)

Now since I answered you again, riddle me this:

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Question: What do you yield yourself to obey, sin unto death or righteousness unto life?

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 13:11:27

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22What I am saying is that since you admit you sin in the flesh just like all the rest of us how can you also claim to be living a sinless life? The logic escapes me.

--- How can anyone sin and then claim to be living without sin? ---

Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.

I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.

Living a sinless life would be living **without sinning**. Obvously that is not the same as living a life in which a person sins. You got mad at Robert when he said you are living in sin. Logic states that if a person sins then they are not living a sinless life. --- That is the point I have been trying to make. -- You can't claim to be living a sinless lfe if you sin, and everybody sins. Therefore no one is living a sinless life.

If no one is living a sinless life then the opposite has to be true, eveyone is living a life in which they sin and another way to say it is that everyone is living in Sin.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 14:12:32
Okay, I'm sorry for calling you names and insulting you. But Richard, you are making it very difficult for me to discuss this with you by fashioning me into a strawman who says I am sinless when I never did. I know you would really like me to say that cause it would make it easier to dismiss me as a sinless perfectionist to justify your antinomian doctrines. But I'm sorry that I can't oblige.

I AM NOT SINLESS.

I hope you got that this time.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22I mortify the deeds of the body by placing no faith (confidence) in it's ability to stop sinning. I live after the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh. Romans 8:1-11

Now how about you? Are you confident that you, in the flesh, can live without committing a sin?

So you don't actually mortify the deeds of your flesh, but you consider a mental resignation of your flesh to sin as mortification? I believe that upon a study of the Greek you will find Paul was saying he actually mortifies the deeds of his body, not that he was just making some mental acquiescence to his inability.

As for my confidence I believe in him who will deliver me from this body of death (cf. Rom 7:21-24)

Now since I answered you again, riddle me this:

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Question: What do you yield yourself to obey, sin unto death or righteousness unto life?

You seem think that disobedience is breaking the law and obedience is keeping the law (not sinning in the flesh). That is what many believe. But God has already taken care of the sins of the flesh part. He has washed them away in the blood of the new covenant. Today, the sin that condemns is the sin of unbelief in Jesus, what He did on the cross. Sin is unbelief in God; to not believe He means what He says and does. I obey by doing as He says to do in Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)

28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

John 16:8-9 (NKJ) says that the world will be judged ""because they do not believe in ME.""
8   "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9   "of sin, ****because they do not believe in Me;****

Since I believe in Him my sins do not convict me.

I AM OBEDIENT because I believe in the gospel of grace, that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sins. --- Now should I start believing He did not pay for ALL my sins on the cross then I have become an un-believer and am sinning.

Sloan, you are a slave to what you let rule over you. --- If you are constantly having to try to keep from sinning, then your sins are ruling over you. You are a servant to your sins--  You quoted "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness --- Your quote says the same thing I said at the first of this paragraph.

I don't let my sins rule over me. Not that I don't have them. But Jesus did away with them on the cross. --- Now, to the religious that means he changed my sinful nature and has made me sinless in the flesh. But I am not stupid, if He changes our sinful nature and we still sin then God must be very weak since He hasn't stopped anyone from sinning. --- So I don't believe God changes our sinful nature. --- I believe God has made a way for those that are sinners to be saved even though they are still sinners. If that is not true then no one is going to be saved since everyone sins.

You asked "Question: What do you yield yourself to obey, sin unto death or righteousness unto life." --- I obey God by believing in His Son, and because I do, God has justified me and given me His righteousness as a free gift, just as Jesus said He would. In other words I BELIEVE GOD.

Charles, You said the following marked ##:

## ----- So you don't actually mortify the deeds of your flesh, but you consider a mental resignation of your flesh to sin as mortification?  I believe that upon a study of the Greek you will find Paul was saying he actually mortifies the deeds of his body, not that he was just making some mental acquiescence to his inability. --- As for my confidence I believe in him who will deliver me from this body of death (cf. Rom 7:21-24)

**Oh yes Charles, I actually do mortify the deeds done by my flesh. My flesh is crucified with Jesus. It is dead and buried. The sins, (there will always be sins in the flesh), my body commits have been washed away in God's eyes and I can say I believe in Him who will deliver me from this body of sin (Rom 7:21-24) but not until I leave this body of sin. You have Him delivering you from your body before you die.

Jesus has already delivered us from the penalties of our sins in the flesh. But He doesn't separate us from our sinful bodies until we die.

We have a difference of opinion here Charles. You see a person becoming less sinful in the flesh. But history proves that men do not become less sinful. Even those that are called Christian have persecuted and killed others.

Lets see what Paul really says about his sinful nature, the flesh, in Romans 7: Does he say it is gone and he no longer follows it?

24. O wretched man that I AM! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25. I thank God --- through Jesus Christ our Lord!
26. So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, ***** BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN. *****

Maybe I can't understand the English language but I believe he said that with his flesh he served the law of sin. --- The same thing I, and Robert, have been saying.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Feb 07, 2008 - 08:40:01**Oh We have a difference of opinion here Charles. You see a person becoming less sinful in the flesh. But history proves that men do not become less sinful. Even those that are called Christian have persecuted and killed others.

This is at the heart of our differences. You don't believe the believer sins any less then the unbeliever, but I believe that the Christian when indwelt with the Spirit of God is transformed (cf. Rom 12:2) and given a new heart and new spirit (Eze 11:19, 18:31, 36:26). I believe that the believer although they do sin (cf. 1Jo 2:1), will no longer have a desire to drink iniquity as water (cf. Job 15:16) and will instead hunger and thirst for righteousness (cf. Mat 5:6, Jhn 6:35). You seem to depart from the Biblical doctrine of regeneration (cf. Tts 3:5) in favor of depravity.

Indeed many people have killed in the name of Christ and religions. But this is no more an evidence that those doing it were Christians than their claims that God led their charge. Hypocrites are exposed by their actions, not by their words.

Now let me just give a quick number of passages that show there is a changed life in a convert.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 4:22  That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Tts 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.

1Pe 4:2-3 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

The passages speak for themselves. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (cf. 2Cr 5:17).

Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Feb 07, 2008 - 08:40:01Lets see what Paul really says about his sinful nature, the flesh, in Romans 7: Does he say it is gone and he no longer follows it?

24. O wretched man that I AM! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25. I thank God --- through Jesus Christ our Lord!
26. So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, ***** BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN. *****

Maybe I can't understand the English language but I believe he said that with his flesh he served the law of sin. --- The same thing I, and Robert, have been saying.

I know this is what you and Robert have been promoting, hence my keen interest in this discussion. But lets look at the entire context, and see if you can agree with EVERYTHING Paul says. Not just one half of a sentence.

Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Do you consent that the law is good?

When you sin is it against your will?

Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Do you struggle against sin?

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

Do you serve the law of God with your mind?

Does your mind war against the law of sin in your flesh?

Understand that I don't completely disagree with your explanation of verse 26, I would say looking at the context I would say Paul does NOT follow his sinful nature. But struggles against it, and is taken captive by it AGAINST his will. I don't believe you have any trouble understanding English, but what I believe you might be having trouble with is context.

Charles, I am going to reply to you knowing full well that you might turn around and say I think I have a license to sin. -- But the truth is that I hate sin, just as Paul did.  But I find myself in a body that sins, just as Paul did and I seek to be rid of it. But God says His grace is sufficient for me.

## You said; -- I know this is what you and Robert have been promoting, hence my keen interest in this discussion. But lets look at the entire context, and see if you can agree with EVERYTHING Paul says. Not just one half of a sentence.

## Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

## Do you consent that the law is good?

*** YES! It would be wonderful if I could keep it, but I can't. Nor can anyone else.

## When you sin is it against your will?

*** Not all the time, and neither does anyone else, all the time.

## Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

## Do you struggle against sin?

*** In Romans 7:23, Paul does not say he is successful. In fact in verse 25 he indicate that he has given up trying to subject his sinful flesh nature to his will and thanks God for Jesus Christ.

## Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

## Do you serve the law of God with your mind?

*** Yes, and the law of God in this dispensation, is to believe in Jesus. It is not obedience to the Law of Moses. God already knows we cannot stop our sins of the flesh as long as we are in the flesh (not dead).

Now a question for you.  Do you serve the law of sin in the flesh? If you don't, you are greater that Paul.

## Does your mind war against the law of sin in your flesh?

*** This is the same as "Do you struggle against sin?"

*** No I don't struggle with sins of the flesh any longer. I can't, nor can anyone else, win that struggle and there is no longer any need for me to do so. I already have the victory over my sins of the flesh and I thank God for that victory. --- I have entered God's rest. (See Hebrews 4 and notice that the ones that do not enter God's rest are those that are disobedient = do not ""believe,"" verse 3).  In verse 10 we see that those that believe have entered God's rest and ceased from their own works just as God did from His. --- Why do others try and make the children of God leave their rest in God and go back to struggling with the flesh? Is it lack of faith?

## Understand that I don't completely disagree with your explanation of verse 26, I would say looking at the context I would say Paul does NOT follow his sinful nature. But struggles against it, and is taken captive by it AGAINST his will. I don't believe you have any trouble understanding English, but what I believe you might be having trouble with is context.

*** Well I don't see that I am having any trouble, thank you! Ha! Ha!

*** Okay, go on to Romans chapter 8. In verse 1 He says the same thing I am saying, "there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." --- Paul is saying that a child of God walks in the Spirit, not that he has a choice to do so. --- Now it seems to me that you will understand this to mean walking without sinning in the flesh. I DON"T! It can't mean that since no man can stop sinning in the flesh.   Verse 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.  ---- You can't be free from it if you still think it can condemn you.  verse 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His on Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin;

Note Romans 8, verse 4 &5, If you set your mind on the things of the flesh (to sin or not to sin) then you are walking in the flesh

People are going to have to come down on one side or the other. Either they are free of their sinful nature or they are not. Either they place their faith in Jesus OR in their ability to not sin in the flesh. The only way to be free of the flesh is "in Christ." And that does not mean your sinful nature has changed.

None of the above means that I, or any child of God, intentionally goes out and sins, sins, sins. But, you, myself, and all the rest, cannot stop the sinful thoughts that go through the minds. The same minds that have both curses and blessings, has hate one minute and love the next.

Here, Charles, maybe this will help.   

dayspring08

You two deserve each other.  Have fun.