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listen carefully to what he is saying....everything he says is what I have said....except about the "hell" part. Hell is for  Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that fell with him, not for mankind. God is not a cruel God. When you die, you "sleep" until the resurrection.

If one of the 144,00 you will be raised (or transformed if still alive) to meet Christ in the heavens and the "second" death has no effect on them.

ALL other people will be ressurrected int he second ressurection: The great White Throne.

Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They [the beast and his false prophet] will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small [all people], standing before the throne, and books were opened [ the books of the bible]. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

But anyway, he has it right: Most everything about the "Christian" churches (that is "traditional" Christianity) have it all wrong, nor do they know God, but God detests the very things they do. I like how he makes it VERY CLEAR that by asking Jesus into your heart you be able to come in...he says: you will NOT find that anywhere in scripture. HE is right....Tee cross is the doorway, it is the reconciliation back to God, not the guarantee of salvation in the end. You MUST have God's HOLY spirit working in you, not a rebellious WORLDLY spirit. That is the guarantee of your salvation. The "message" is everywhere, but few see it or hear the voice of the Shepard.....REPENT turn back to GOD. That means BE HOLY, Jesus was HOLY. He is talking to YOU. Wake up people before it is to late.....stop clapping and start producing works. Faith alone is worthless, faith should produce works. Faith without works is DEAD.

Sounds like you are a Jehovah's Witness.

Is this the case?

No sir I am not.

I do what the WORD of GOD says to do and nothing more or less.

I believe that the bible is the WORD of God and whatever IT says I BELIEVE...and follow.

I am not of any "religion", I simply obey God the best I can according to his word and the power of his HOLY spirit to go out and spread the truth that Jesus Christ, died, was buried, was raised after three days and three nights and ascended unto our Father in heaven where he now sits while God brings EVERY nation under his feet so that he can return again with the Kingdom of God unto the earth.

Lucifer's Reign over the earth is about to end, and Jesus Christ, the one who is both the LAMB of God and the LION of the tribe of JUDAH is about to pore out judgment upon all the nations, then he will return in Glory and in power to set up the Kingdom of God here on the earth. The world will be ran by ONE government....GOD. It will be an earth of PEACE, OBEDIENCE TO GODS LAW, joy unspeakable, and truth...and this is the GOOD NEWS, that JEsus Christ is coming to set up the Kingdom of GOD where there will be no more "death", no more HATE, no more LIES, no more DECEPTIONS, no more killing, nor more adultry, no more pain, no more suffering....indeed it is the greatest news ever.

A yes or no would have done fine.

I believe humans will go to hell... "Depart from me, I knew you not".... those people are going somewhere. 

And when it is spoken that those who take that mark of the Beast and worship him, those people are going somewhere... and it isn't going to be heaven.

Pretty good preachin!     Thanks

Do something. Grab you concordance. Now look up the word "hell". What does it mean?

the Grave.

The "hell" your thinking about it the "lake of Fire" which is not "hell". It is a place were "spiritual" beings, called Angels (if they are good) or else Demons (if they disobey God's authority) will go to be tormented forever because they can not "die".

Mankind "dies" and goes to sleep. Jesus raised the dead, but he said, they are not "dead" but "sleeping".

When a person is resurrected back to life (the second resurrection), they will face the great White throne. There, the books (the books in the Bible) will be opened and the book of life. There, everyone will have the chance to accept the "truth" as Jesus reveals all things to them so there is no more "deception" or confusion. They will then be given the chance to repent and live for God...to obey his authority.

If they still refuse to do it at that point, the die, to never ever be resurrected again (permanently dead..forever). That is their punishment if they still refuse (very very very very few will) after the "truth" is presented to them. God does not "torture" humans...that is SICK, it is evil, and it is wicked, none of which are God's character.

The only ones who get the "torture" are the demons, the devil (who was called Lucifer until he sinned), and the false religious leader that will arise on the seen after the Lost tribes of Israel are hit with severe terror. These beings can not "die" they are "spirit" and spirit can not die. They get the torture because they were given 6,000 years to repent and to turn back to God placing themselves back under Gods authority, but they don't do it. They go around deceiving people, and putting people into utter darkness through lies and false teachings that are not from God....just like in the garden of Eden

They are the VERY CAUSE of mankind sinning, and mankind continuing to sin and that is the price they will pay for doing what they did to mankind.....when they were told not to. That is not evil, nor wicked, because God told them ahead of time before man was put on the earth. They made the choice to set themselves above God and do things "their" way rather then submitting to God. They get what they earned, just as man, who sins gets death.

When you read the scriptures about man being in the nashing of teeth, that is because they are standing before God KNOWING they sinned, knowing they heard the truth, but refused to accept the truth....and they know the price they must pay for it.  They are in agony, as they think about everything that happened in their lives....how many chances they were given, yet they refused to accept the truth and turn back to God. It is not a "place" it is a state of being. They will be sent away from Jesus: Depart from me, I never KNEW you. When they depart...it hits them what they did. There are VERY FEW people who will end up in this condition.

God said: I iwsh that no man would perish. Trust me, it will be VERY FEW that end up cast away from the Lord who loves them whole heartedly....when they see the truth, they will repent..the vast majority of them. Regardless though, ALL PEOPLE who have ever lived will be raised back to life.....to the great White Throne.

hades = the underworld.

Trust me, it will be VERY FEW that end up cast away from the Lord who loves them whole heartedly

This is a VERY dangerous thing to claim. And why should I trust you?  Just because you said so?   

There is a Heaven and a Hell, and we are all going to one or the other.

We are all created to live for eternity.  Will we live in Eternal joy with God or in eternal damnation in Hell is a choice we have to make here.

concordance: Hades: See hell

Hell as used in the NEW testament: number 1067

In Greek...Number 1067 = geena which means: the valley of Gehenna

Now if you go back to your old testament and to the law, you will see that those who sinned were burned with fire in the valley of Gehenna. It is not torment, it is death.....not everlasting life.....death....everlasting death....to never be raised back to life. Remember they were "already dead" when the bodies were tossed into the valley of Gehenna and this include the animal sacrafices and the parts that had to be burned up.

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.

Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

NOTE that word "many"

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.


    "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth." Psalm 37:9.

    "For a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalm 37:10.

    "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20.

    "I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36.

    "Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

    "Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

    "The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20.

Quote from: kensington on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 19:23:24
Trust me, it will be VERY FEW that end up cast away from the Lord who loves them whole heartedly

This is a VERY dangerous thing to claim. And why should I trust you?  Just because you said so?   

There is a Heaven and a Hell, and we are all going to one or the other.

We are all created to live for eternity.  Will we live in Eternal joy with God or in eternal damnation in Hell is a choice we have to make here.

Angels and God (spirit beings) live in heaven. Lucifer and the fallen angels are condemned to the lake of fire...what your calling hell.

Man was made for the EARTH. the 144,000 will be "spirit" as they will be "born again" of God into spiritual bodies....and live forever.

Remember that only 144,00 are sealed:

Revelation 7
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
   from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
   from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
   from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
   from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
   from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
   from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
   from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
   from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


Revelation 14:
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Quote from: kensington on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 19:31:46
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.

Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

NOTE that word "many"

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.


    "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth." Psalm 37:9.

    "For a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalm 37:10.

    "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20.

    "I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36.

    "Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

    "Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

    "The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20.

very well said...my point made clearly.

The point is obey God or die. that is the whole Bible from start to finish.

and just to clear things up:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15

Happens after the Great White throne....everyone is given the chance to receive the TRUTH before they are cast into the valley of Gehenna. Each person will have to make their own choice once they "veil" is lifted and they can see the truth.

If "God is not cruel a cruel God" necessitates no hell for mankind, why, then, are those who are not found in the book of life cast into the lake of fire?

He's a Jehovah's Witness, they are told to lie as an option if they feel they need to in order to spread their satanicly inspired gospel.  Don't believe a word he sais guys....

Gary said he is affiliated with one of the "Church of God" denominations. Either way, whether is COG, or a JW in disguise is irrelevant... The truth or error of what he is teaching can be measured by the word of God.

I have them hit my door on a regular basis, some times they will admit, out right that they are JW, othertimes, they make up denominations just to throw you off.  The message in all cases are the same, it's a relatively new tactic they use these days to decieve those into listening to them.

What gets me, they like to canvas neighborhoods, and in this case, the board,  in order to sway legitimate believers.  If they really were wanting to show people Christ, they would be in the ungodly boards and in the slums, but that would be too much work.  What's sad, they are told that if they don't do this, they are not going to heaven.

Another rather new tactic they use is shown clearly here, where they twist the KJB to suit their needs and messages.  Apparently the rewording of their own base bible wasn't enough since people more easily saw thorugh it, I guess enough people "like me" have been trained to discern real doctrin from their own, which is very much demonically inspired.  Take note, his message is in full support of the JW way, no holidays, the pressure for the jewish sabbath day, the 144,000, the lying in the grave, it's all the same message and not one from God.  What I find interesting with this one, he goes so far so to claim to prophesie, that he's able to predict the future, we all know and should be aware of the reference and tests to put false prophets through, it's all in the word, and it's all plain for all to see.

Just wondering how long his blasphemies are going to be tolerated before his account gets terminated, he's only causing trouble here and is trying his best to mislead others.

He hasn't deceived me guys... I can see the false thing he preaches.  Ugh... 

Quote from: John 1:1 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 20:35:07
I have them hit my door on a regular basis, some times they will admit, out right that they are JW, othertimes, they make up denominations just to throw you off.  The message in all cases are the same, it's a relatively new tactic they use these days to decieve those into listening to them.

What gets me, they like to canvas neighborhoods, and in this case, the board,  in order to sway legitimate believers.  If they really were wanting to show people Christ, they would be in the ungodly boards and in the slums, but that would be too much work.  What's sad, they are told that if they don't do this, they are not going to heaven.

Another rather new tactic they use is shown clearly here, where they twist the KJB to suit their needs and messages.  Apparently the rewording of their own base bible wasn't enough since people more easily saw thorugh it, I guess enough people "like me" have been trained to discern real doctrin from their own, which is very much demonically inspired.  Take note, his message is in full support of the JW way, no holidays, the pressure for the jewish sabbath day, the 144,000, the lying in the grave, it's all the same message and not one from God.  What I find interesting with this one, he goes so far so to claim to prophesie, that he's able to predict the future, we all know and should be aware of the reference and tests to put false prophets through, it's all in the word, and it's all plain for all to see.

Just wondering how long his blasphemies are going to be tolerated before his account gets terminated, he's only causing trouble here and is trying his best to mislead others.

Jeremiah is "Church of God - PKG" which is a splinter group offshoot from the Worldwide Church of God started by Herbert W. Armstrong.  He isn't a JW, but the result is the same.

Jeremiah if mankind doesn't go into the lake of fire could you please explain the following verse: Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  The beast and false prophet are human yet they do get cast into the lake of fire.

Quote from: James Rondon on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 20:25:10
Gary said he is affiliated with one of the "Church of God" denominations. Either way, whether is COG, or a JW in disguise is irrelevant... The truth or error of what he is teaching can be measured by the word of God.

May this be added as a witness against before the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God who made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. The God who formed man and said from dirt you are made and to dirt you will return. The God who sent his son into the world to lay down his life for many who would BELIEVE his WORD. The God who inspired the prophets of old to write the scripture they wrote. He is the Judge of every man woman and child. The God who led his people, Israel, out of the land of Egypt with signs and wonders and plagues. The God who gave his chosen people his law, and to whom he showed who he was. The God who laid the foundations of the earth and set the limits and boundaries of the oceans.

QuoteThe truth or error of what he is teaching can be measured by the word of God

Your exactly right...the TRUTH of what is being taught can be measure by the very WORD OF GOD...and it stands as a witness against you.

I am not a JW. Nor have I at any time said that I was, nor have I said I was a part of the Church of God....if you want to add these things to what I say, then so be it, but remember I never said any such things.

I have links to the Church of God, but that does not mean, nor did I say I am a member of it.

I am a member of the TEMPLE of God....I belong to God, not to man, nor to any mans church. I belong to Gods WORD dedicated to proclaiming the TRUTH of what is in God...his WORD, just as Jesus, and all the Apostles did.

dedicated to proclaiming the TRUTH of what is in God...his WORD,

Or better said your interpretation of it what you understand it to say whether right or wrong you will stand by your preconceived ideals.

Quote from: Nyoka on Fri Mar 14, 2008 - 05:44:55
Jeremiah if mankind doesn't go into the lake of fire could you please explain the following verse: Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  The beast and false prophet are human yet they do get cast into the lake of fire.

The BEAST is a NATION, not a person.....Go back and Read Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. Also read Revelation 13 and 17

And yes that nation will never rise again, but will be desolate forever more....it will be tossed into the lake of Fire indeed, for the "spiritual" rulers and authorites that Control that nation are DEMONS and the head of them is Satan.

The false prohpet is not a person, it is a DEMON in a human body, and he will be tossed into the lake of fire as well.

Do you understand what the Lake of Fire is? What happens when you throw something in Lava?

ALL PHYSICAL, WORLDLY aspects of that object ..... are destroyed.....forever...they don't  suffer....they instantly ignite and perish....the UNSEEN side of that thing...Cells, atoms, and so forth and so on....non worldly parts continue on and are NOT effected by heat.

The Lake of Fire is a place where anything "physical" will be burned up.

A Spirit or "demon" is not effected by fire nor by heat....only physical being are.

People have all these "beliefs" and they do not even know WHY they have them or from where they got them. The BIBLE is the TRUTH, the BIBLE explains itself. There is no  need for "interpretation" unless you want to twist what it says. Every "symbol" used in prophecy is explained somewhere within the Bible so that there is no question as to what the symbol means. Go and read Daneil 2 and 7 and also read Revelation 13 an d 17 and it will explain the "beast" in plain english to you....no need to interpret it. It very clearly says: The beast is:

Go and read and you will see.

Quote from: bvaug on Fri Mar 14, 2008 - 07:14:00
dedicated to proclaiming the TRUTH of what is in God...his WORD,

Or better said your interpretation of it what you understand it to say whether right or wrong you will stand by your preconceived ideals.

Ok so your saying Paul when he wrote the Bible just used "preconceived" ideas? What about Peter? What about Simon?

How about the OLD TESTAMENT people...Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel

The SPIRIT OF GOD SEARCHES THE THINGS OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
   "No eye has seen,
      no ear has heard,
   no mind has conceived
   what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
      The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
      that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

You guys are arguing against God's word, not me....be very careful what you assume or accuse.

Jeremiah nations in the bible usually meant the people of that nation not the land so even if the beast is only a nation then it is still the people not the land or a demon representing those people that goes in the lake of fire.  The people are what God judges not the dirt under their feet. The land may be destroyed when God's judgment comes on those people but it is still the people not the land being judged. Read Gen 18:16 to Gen 19:29 as an example of this. God destroyed these cities but it was the people He was judging not the dirt beneath their feet.

That is absolutely correct. The Nation is ran by spiritual powers, and authorities rulers in the unseen realm  and it is them that are judged by being thrown into the lake of fire.....the people, humans that are in the land will simply "die" (fall asleep) and lay in their grave until the second resurrection

But the "beast" is a nation, and the little horn will give it its power. Power is in the heavenly realm. Mankind has no powers unless possessed by a demon, but even then, the "body" has no power, only the demon in the unseen.  The beast of the end time is 10 nations that all unite for a prophetic "1 hour". Some are strong as iron and other as weak as clay. They will crumble and fall. They are raised up long enough to do what they will do to the lost 10 tribes of Israel and take the remnant captive. God will then judge them for the wickedness they do to LORDS people.

Jeremiah you seem to want to push your views and not listen to what others are saying - if I am wrong please forgive me.  If I stay posting on this thread you will get upset that you can't convince me that you are right.  Therefore so I don't put a stumbling stone in your way I will bow out of this thread.  I pray God blesses you. 

Quote from: Nyoka on Fri Mar 14, 2008 - 18:27:29
Jeremiah you seem to want to push your views and not listen to what others are saying - if I am wrong please forgive me.  If I stay posting on this thread you will get upset that you can't convince me that you are right.  Therefore so I don't put a stumbling stone in your way I will bow out of this thread.  I pray God blesses you. 

Nyoka, You could never be a stumbling block to someone that has their mind seared and their heart harden!

I have warned about this individual and avoid his ranting and false prophesies.  He has so many misquoted scriptures and wrong interpretations of Revelation it is mindbogglingly.

In Titus 1:10-16 
For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

Thank you Remnant for the kind words.  When someone has hardened their heart this much I don't see the sense in trying to convince them otherwise.  I go by Matthew 7:6 in these situations.  God bless you.

Quote from: Nyoka on Fri Mar 14, 2008 - 21:39:59
Thank you Remnant for the kind words.  When someone has hardened their heart this much I don't see the sense in trying to convince them otherwise.  I go by Matthew 7:6 in these situations.  God bless you.

Amen!

Quote from: Jeremiah on Fri Mar 14, 2008 - 07:10:02

QuoteThe truth or error of what he is teaching can be measured by the word of God

Your exactly right...the TRUTH of what is being taught can be measure by the very WORD OF GOD...and it stands as a witness against you.

Please explain to me how the word of God stands as a witness against me...

By the way, I'm still waiting for your answer, from the word of God, to my earlier question. Here it is again, just in case you missed it:

Quote from: James Rondon on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 20:01:27
If "God is not cruel a cruel God" necessitates no hell for mankind, why, then, are those who are not found in the book of life cast into the lake of fire?

Quote from: James Rondon on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 20:01:27
If "God is not cruel a cruel God" necessitates no hell for mankind, why, then, are those who are not found in the book of life cast into the lake of fire?

To be destroyed.  The punishment is eternal, but it appears the punishing is not.

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
   
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

That doesn't answer my question. Let me ask it another way: How would eternal punishment, in the form of ongoing punishment make God a cruel God, while eternal punishment, in the form of being cast into a lake of fire and burned into annhilation make Him uncruel?...

Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV)

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mere Nick, You said:

QuoteTo be destroyed.  The punishment is eternal, but it appears the punishing is not.
Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hell as a place of punishment translates Gehenna, the Greek form of the Hebrew word that means 'the vale of Hinnom' - a valley just south of Jerusalem . . . In the time of Jesus the Valley of Hinnom was used as the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Into it were thrown all the filth and garbage of the city, including the dead bodies of animals and executed criminals. To consume all this, fires burned constantly . . . Jesus used this awful scene as a symbol of hell. In effect he said, 'Do you want to know what hell is like? Look at the valley of Gehenna.' So hell may be described as God's 'cosmic garbage dump.' All that is unfit for heaven will be thrown into hell."

There are 1,850 verses in the New Testament that contain Jesus speaking. In thirteen percent of those verses, Jesus speaks regarding eternal judgment and hell. Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven!

Jesus taught that hell is an actual, literal place and He described it as a place of eternal suffering. Consider these verses:

Matthew 13:49-50 says, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Luke 16:22-24 describes hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us, "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." Revelation 14:10-11, speaking of the antichrist, teaches us, "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Hell is a lake of burning fire, as described in Revelation 20:14-15, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

In responce to Matthew 10:28

From Mt. 10:28 and Lk. 12:4, 5, we must conclude that those who get cast into hell (geenna) have both their soul and body destroyed there. However, the word translated destroy (apollumi), as used in Mt. 10:28, doesn't mean annihilate. Beside Rev. 20:10 as proof for this, we also can easily deduce this by examining two other verses where this same Greek word is used but rendered perish and lost respectively:
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish [apollumi]: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved (Mt. 9:17, KJV).
"For this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost [apollumi] and is found." And they began to be merry (Lk. 15:24, NKJV).

Again, this Greek word can't be equated with annihilate. We know this because the wine bottles that perished would still be in existence, but ruined for the purpose for which they were intended. Moreover, the prodigal was not annihilated when he was lost, but was fully conscious in that spiritual state.
Furthermore, if one was annihilated in geenna he could not experience "torment" forever and ever, as clearly expressed in Rev. 20:10. Furthermore, that same passage is even more clear when one considers Rev. 19:20 with it. Here they are together:

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone (Rev. 19:20, NKJV).
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev. 20:10, NIV).

Clearly then, the devil, the false prophet and the antichrist will all experience everlasting punishment, that is, torment without end forever, but not utter destruction, as some teach. This is even more clear when we notice that "the beast and false prophet" were thrown into the lake of burning sulfur 1,000 years before the devil gets there, that is, at the beginning of the Millennium (Rev. 19:20), yet these same humans were not annihilated in the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:10)!

Quote from: James Rondon on Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 01:34:03
That doesn't answer my question. Let me ask it another way: How would eternal punishment, in the form of ongoing punishment make God a cruel God, while eternal punishment, in the form of being cast into a lake of fire and burned into annhilation make Him uncruel?...

I believe it answers it, you just don't like the answer.  It seems real important to you to believe that those who die outside of Christ are turning on a spit 997 trillion millennia from now.

What makes it cruel is the same reason it is generally understandable for the state to execute a man who commits first degree murder but it is not understandable for the state to throw him in a dungeon and have him tortured for as long as possible.

In the beginning, we were made to live forever, but Adam and Eve bit the apple.  They eventually died, as we all do now.

Re-read Romans 5:6-21.  It appears that eternal life is only for those who are in Christ.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 16:38:32
Sounds like you are a Jehovah's Witness.

Is this the case?

Does it matter?  I am not a JW and the Word of God does teach that the wicked people, those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ, will receive judgment which is the "second death" when Christ returns to earth (the Lord's Day).  Satan and his host of devil/evil spirits will be destroyed, wiped out.

That the wicked will endure endless torture, suffering and agony paints a picture of a God who is cruel, unloving and unmerciful.  This idea goes against the very nature of God who is all loving, good, compassionate, merciful and just.  The belief of hell as an eternal torture chamber for the wicked is due to a wrong teaching or a wrong understanding of Scripture.