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Alethes, You said:

QuoteThat the wicked will endure endless torture, suffering and agony paints a picture of a God who is cruel, unloving and unmerciful.  This idea goes against the very nature of God who is all loving, good, compassionate, merciful and just.  The belief of hell as an eternal torture chamber for the wicked is due to a wrong teaching or a wrong understanding of Scripture.

God's ways are not our ways and if He is a loving God then He is also a just God.

If you studied scripture you would know that their is an eternal hell for the wicked and for those who reject Jesus as their Lord and saviour.

Most cults teach that their is no such thing.  JW, SDA, WWCOG, Mormons, etc.

But scripture is real clear and it seems that you have overlooked the scriptures that I posted before your last post.

The real hell which awaits those who reject the Lord IS NEVER OVER. That is how I know that hell is not here on earth, because where hell is concerned, there is no escape! Mark 9:44 says that hell is "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." And Matthew 25:46 tells us, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." And in Revelation 14:11 we read, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night..." Friend, a heart attack cannot end the true hell. A bullet to the head will not end hell. Nothing will put an end to the torment of hell.

Your worst experience here on earth pales in comparison to the place called hell that Jesus spoke of. Therefore, comparing the evil that is happening on earth to hell is like comparing a slight sunburn to being set on fire -- a fire that cannot be quenched. There is no comparison!

"Why would God create and send people to a place as terrible as hell?" First, you have to realize that hell was not even originally created for people. Hell was created for Satan and the angels that followed Satan. Matthew 25:41, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Second, you should know that God does not send anyone to hell. God does not want any person to go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hell was never intended for man. But if a person rejects Jesus Christ, thereby rejecting heaven, then that person must accompany Satan forever. God gives us a choice, either eternal life with Him or eternal suffering with the devil. You would think that it would be an easy choice for people to make, but, unfortunately, many people reject Jesus Christ and God's offer of heaven.

And God will not force heaven or Jesus on anyone. There will not be one person in heaven who did not want to be there. So if a person chooses to reject Christ, that person has chosen hell for himself or herself. God did not send them there.

Sadly, there are going to be a whole lot of people in hell, even so-called nice people. So many in fact that hell had to be enlarged! Isaiah 5:14, "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure."

God died on the cross for your sins to make a way for you to get to heaven. If you reject His free gift, there is no one to blame but yourself. It has been said that the door of hell is locked from the inside.

As God's goodness and glory are forevermore experienced and enjoyed in Heaven, so too is his fury and wrath forever exemplified and expressed in eternal hell. God's will get glory either by forgiving sinful man to the praise and glory of His grace (Eph 1:6), or he will receive glory when he vindicates all those who spurned his amazing and awful grace (Pro 16:4, etc).

I would simply plead with any Jehovah's Witness here to repent and trust in Jesus alone for your justification. We are too sinful in and of ourselves to ever have any hope of salvation apart from Christ. When we juxtapose God's holiness with our goodness at its zenith, we find that we are most radically depraved and evil.

Repent and trust in Jesus alone and beg God to do work in us all that we might bring Him glory and enjoy him - the very reason we were created. 

"Christianity is based on fear.  Fear of not going into this so-called Heaven." -a friend.

so, Jeremiah, what about the contradictions within the Bible (against itself)? what would you follow then?

I'd say Heaven and Hell is what you make it.

People tend to disregard stuff from the Bible for some reason, to fit what they want to believe.

Quote from: Remnant on Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 21:42:46
Alethes, You said:

QuoteThat the wicked will endure endless torture, suffering and agony paints a picture of a God who is cruel, unloving and unmerciful.  This idea goes against the very nature of God who is all loving, good, compassionate, merciful and just.  The belief of hell as an eternal torture chamber for the wicked is due to a wrong teaching or a wrong understanding of Scripture.

God's ways are not our ways and if He is a loving God then He is also a just God.

Yes, God ways are indeed higher than man's and I praise Him for that truth.  And yes, God is indeed a LOVING AND JUST GOD, which is why there is no unending  and merciless torture for the wicked.  However, those who have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore do not have God's eternal-life spirit within them, will face eternal death/the second death

Malachi 4:1 says that the wicked will be burned up and be no more.

The second death means death the second time. The first death is a physical death and likewise the second death. It is not a spiritual death because ungodly people do not have the spirit of God. Ungodly people void of holy-spirit life do not have eternal life or immortal life that they should live forever in some fiery torture chamber. How ridiculous.

It is abundantly clear throughout the Word of God that the wicked shall perish and be no more.

John 3:15, 16 --- That whosoever believeth in him should not perish [apollymi], but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If an unbeliever does not have life which is everlasting, then, logically, his life will not be everlasting.  He will, as John 3:16 states, "perish" - be no more. no longer exist.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away (Psalms 37:20).

The wicked shall perish, be consumed away, gone, be no more, vanish.

"For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). 

God could not have made it more clear.  The wages of sin is death/the second death, BUT, the gift of God is "eternal life" - life which is eternal.  If a person does not have eternal-life spirit dwelling within him, then he does not have what?  Eternal life! - plain and simple.

God would have to make the wicked immortal, so that they could burn and burn, but never burn up. If a person was burning in the excruciating pain of fire how long would it take before they would pass out from shock, or would God make it so they couldn't pass out from shock so that they could be suffering excruciating pain for every second of every minute of every hour for billions of years, and even then their suffering would be barely beginning.

For people to say that God would allow unfathomable pain, torture, and despair for all eternity, do not know God.  Is this God's kind of justice?  No, not at all.  What profit or satisfaction could a God who is all love and light possibly derive from such unimaginable and unending horror!?  How utterly ridiculous!

God is not in the business of torturing anyone for eternity as punishment for their sins. "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). 

If you study the Word of God you would know God for Who He Truly IS. 

Alethes, You said:

QuoteIt is abundantly clear throughout the Word of God that the wicked shall perish and be no more.

This is not true either, for the opposite is true throughout the word of God!

You also said:

QuoteIf you study the Word of God you would know God for Who He Truly IS. 

Sir, First off I have been studying and preaching the word of God for over 25 years and have been in full time ministry for all those years.

Secondly, What you are teaching is a doctrine that is not recognized in the mainline denomination churches.  Apparently you believe in either Annihilation or sleep for the wicked.

You have taken scripture out of context and added to some to present a doctrine that is rooted in SDA JW, WWCOG and quite a few other cults.

The doctrine of hell can be summarized as a place of future punishment for the unrighteous - those to reject Jesus Christ.

"Hell as a place of punishment translates Gehenna, the Greek form of the Hebrew word that means 'the vale of Hinnom' - a valley just south of Jerusalem . . . In the time of Jesus the Valley of Hinnom was used as the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Into it were thrown all the filth and garbage of the city, including the dead bodies of animals and executed criminals. To consume all this, fires burned constantly . . . Jesus used this awful scene as a symbol of hell. In effect he said, 'Do you want to know what hell is like? Look at the valley of Gehenna.' So hell may be described as God's 'cosmic garbage dump.' All that is unfit for heaven will be thrown into hell."

There are 1,850 verses in the New Testament that contain Jesus speaking. In thirteen percent of those verses, Jesus speaks regarding eternal judgment and hell. Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven!2

Jesus taught that hell is an actual, literal place and He described it as a place of eternal suffering. Consider these verses:

Matthew 13:49-50 says, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Luke 16:22-24 describes hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us, "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." Revelation 14:10-11, speaking of the antichrist, teaches us, "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Hell is a lake of burning fire, as described in Revelation 20:14-15, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

This is clear indication of burning! Not burned up!
This tells me that they are not annihilated nor sleeps!

Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This is punishment that last forever!

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!
"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

Jesus is always right!

Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE JUDGEMENT:" What is the Judgement for those who reject Christ. A simple state of sleep or annihilation? That's it?

I don't think so! If we all got what we deserved, we would all burn in hell just like the devil and his angels!

By the way, What denomination or church affiliation are you with?

Quote from: Remnant on Fri Mar 21, 2008 - 18:01:29Alethes, You said:  It is abundantly clear throughout the Word of God that the wicked shall perish and be no more.

This is not true either, for the opposite is true throughout the word of God!

That's just your opinion.

QuoteYou also said:
If you study the Word of God you would know God for Who He Truly IS.

Sir, First off I have been studying and preaching the word of God for over 25 years and have been in full time ministry for all those years.

So? What does studyin and preaching the Bible for 25 years prove?  It's possible that you could have been preaching the wrongly divided Word for 25 years.  How long a person studies the Bible is not a guarantee for truth.  What is important is that the Word of God is rightly divided and the truth is preached.

QuoteSecondly, What you are teaching is a doctrine that is not recognized in the mainline denomination churches. Apparently you believe in either Annihilation or sleep for the wicked.

Strange you should use the word "sleep" especially since it is not the word I have used regarding wicked.  If you read all most post on the subject you would know I use words such as "ultimate annihilation," "total destruction" and the "second/final death."  If someone is asleep he will eventually wake up.  With the second death, the wicked will never wake up.

QuoteYou have taken scripture out of context and added to some to present a doctrine that is rooted in SDA JW, WWCOG and quite a few other cults.

I do?  Well according to you of course and which is your opinion only.  My only source of reference for truth and practice is the Word of God and not any kind of denomination.  What is your source?

QuoteThe doctrine of hell can be summarized as a place of future punishment for the unrighteous - those to reject Jesus Christ.

True.  The future punishment is the "second/final death," "ultimate annihilation," "total destruction."

Quote"Hell as a place of punishment translates Gehenna, the Greek form of the Hebrew word that means 'the vale of Hinnom...."

The Greek word gehenna is traditionally translated "hell" which is a word derived from "to hide, conceal, hidden" – however, it actually refers to the "valley of Hinnom" where people used to burn their fires to devils and false-gods but which King Josiah destroyed and the valley was later used to burn all that was against God (refer to Joshua 15:8; II Kings 23:10; II Chronicles 28:3; Isaiah 30:27-33; Jeremiah 7:31 and 32). During Jesus' time this valley was used to burn Jerusalem's refuse/trash and these fires were continuously burning. Jesus used it symbolically, for example in Matthew 23:15 and 33, to refer to the "unquenchable fire" of God's judgment, including the lake of fire. The refuse burned up turning into nothing but a heap of ashes.

QuoteThere are 1,850 verses in the New Testament that contain Jesus speaking. In thirteen percent of those verses, Jesus speaks regarding eternal judgment and hell. Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven!2

And of course those verses need to be studied according to II Timothy 2:15, rightly-dividing the Word of Truth. Your statement carries no weight.

QuoteMatthew 13:49-50 says, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Correct.  They will be thrown into the fiery furnace, a place of continuous fire where there will be "wailing" - crying, expressing grief, mourning.  And "gnashing" - biting, grinding, chewing, snarling using the teeth, figuratively referring to their feelings of hatred/animosity, as animals showing their teeth growling at something or someone in a threatening and defiant manner.  This verse does not prove a place of eternal torment.[

quote]Luke 16:22-24 describes hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire'"[/quote].

Is this the result of 25 years of study?  This passage of Scripture is a parable which is a figure of speech   A parable is a comparison by sustained resemblance.  It is an extended simile, the resemblance is usually in one specific characteristic   The likeness or resemblance  must always be sought from the essence of the entire context.  There is no mention of hell fire.  The word "hell" is the Greek word hades, not "gehenna," but the "grave" where "dead" people are buried.  Since when is "hades" a place of torment?  If so, there are trillions of people in torment even now. The reason this verse is misunderstood is because people try to literalize the parable.  Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were not literally alive in hades; they, as all others, are literally dead until the resurrection. 

These three people were simply figuratively used to make a striking impact on the criticizing Pharisees.  The confusion and misunderstanding of Luke 16 lies in the Pharisaic beliefs.  Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees.  So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishment immediately upon" death.  Jesus used this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous belief.

Quote2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells us, "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."'

Everlasting "destruction," destruction being the permanent second death.  Doesn't say everlasting torture.

QuoteRevelation 14:10-11, speaking of the antichrist, teaches us, "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Does verse 11 say those who worship the beast will themselves be tormented for ever and ever?  No, it clearly states that the "smoke" of their torment ascends up forever and ever.  Like the continuous fire of "gehenna," the Valley of Hinnom, the lake of fire, etc.  And you say I take scripture out of context.  You present a doctrine that is not rooted in Scripture.

QuoteHell is a lake of burning fire, as described in Revelation 20:14-15, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Are death and hades literally thrown in the eternal flames of torment?  How can this be?  Does death literally burn?  It means they are destroyed as recorded in I Corinthians 15:26:.  "The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death." . . . and anyone not found written in the Book of Life."  They are all "destroyed."

QuoteThis is clear indication of burning! Not burned up!  This tells me that they are not annihilated nor sleeps!

Quite the contrary.  Scripture shows a "burning up," a "total destruction."   They are not asleep, but "Ultimately Annihilated," "Totally Destroyed" which Scripture makes absolutely clear when it is "rightly divided."

QuoteMt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

"For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life" through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23)   They will go away, be no more into eternal punishment, eternal death, which is the "second death."

QuoteThis is punishment that last forever!

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL! 
"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41...

Matthew 7:19 -- You ignore the context.  Every tree that is not presently and actively making good fruit is cut off (cut out from the other trees) and is thrown into fire where it is burned up and thereby destroyed. Emphatically in correspondence to that you will fully know them from their fruits.

Matthew 13:40 -- see above Matthew 13:49-50.  It appears you have taken other verses of scripture out of context as well since they have nothing to do with hell/gehenna,  The ones dealing with fire, damnation, etc., speak of eternal death/the second death, total destruction which I have show you with Scripture.

Also, in Mark 9:44,46, 48, the fire which destroys the wicked, is unquenchable" - symbolic signifying there is no escape from the second death which is a permanent death.  The person is dead but the worm, the worms that specifically prey upon the dead body do not die or are alive.

We need to keep in mind that there are a lot of symbolisms used in the Bible.  For example, do we literally eat the flesh of Jesus Christ and literally drink His blood?  No, just as death is not literally thrown into the lake of fire.  Here fire is put for destruction for we know, according to I Corinthians 15:26, that death, the last enemy, shall be destroyed.  Many things said in the Word of God are symbolic and used to  communicate a truth, such as in the parables which Jesus used frequently in His teachings.

QuoteJesus is always right!

You got that right!   

QuoteBy the way, What denomination or church affiliation are you with?

Does it matter?  It's the Word of God that matters, not denominations.  I am a simple Christian who affiliate with a Christian Family and Fellowship, a ministry which applies 2 Timothy 2:15, Acts 17:11, and take God at His Word.

Yes it does matter what denomination you are with.  Especially if it is a cult or false religion that twist and adds words to scripture. I also noticed who you pick and chose and do not answer my questions directly.

You know as well as I do that the JW, Or WWCOG Herbert Armstrong or the SDA etc. teach this doctrine of hell.


Are you ashamed of what type of church you are affiliated with?

You said: So?

QuoteWhat does studying and preaching the Bible for 25 years prove?  It's possible that you could have been preaching the wrongly divided Word for 25 years.  How long a person studies the Bible is not a guarantee for truth.  What is important is that the Word of God is rightly divided and the truth is preached.

It proves a lot and what you have done is called me a liar and the men and women of the faith who have preceeded me.

You sir are very condescending and nasty and you can believe the lie instead of the truth but don't propagate it to others.  I know you are affiliated with one of these groups that I have mentioned simply by your rebuttal to the truth.

People like you use the Internet, because they can't find another pulpit to preach this poison.

What many tend to forget that God is God and besides him there is no other.
He is the same God of the OT that we read about in the NT.  True, He is loving, merciful and full of compassion as he patiently waits until the decided time to call all of this to an end.

He is also a God of judgment.  His righteousness requires it.
He hates sin and He never changes.

He destroyed the entire old world except for Noah and his family.
He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of sin.
He destroyed 22,000 Israelites for adultery in one day as Moses lead them through the wilderness, etc.

And He will destroy this world and all sin in it when He returns as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to rule and reign forever more.

Annihilation, an Impossibility

The annihilation of the wicked is disproved by the following Scripture:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell [geenna] as yourselves (Mt. 23:14, 15, NKJV).

There will be greater condemnation in geenna for some than others! This would be impossible if all of the wicked would be annihilated. If such people were all annihilated, then they would all receive the same "condemnation." No one could get a greater condemnation.

Other Related Passages On Hell

Consider other related passages about those that do not enter the kingdom of God:
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell [geenna], into the fire that shall never be quenched; where Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell [geenna], into the fire that shall never be quenched; where Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell [geenna] fire; where Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched (Mk. 9:43-48, NKJV).
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (Mt. 3:10 NKJV).

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire (Mt. 3:12 NKJV).

But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!" shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!" shall be in danger of hell [geenna] fire (Mt. 5:22 NKJV).

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (Mt. 7:19 NKJV).

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age (Mt. 13:40 NKJV).

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 13:49, 50 NKJV).

If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell [geenna] fire (Mt. 18:8, 9 NKJV).

And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 25:30, NKJV).

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt (Dan. 12:2, NKJV).

On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot (Psa. 11:6, NIV).

In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power (2 Thess. 1:8, 9, NKJV).

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified(13) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:26-29, NKJV).

Both Righteous and Wicked Have Descended to Sheol
In the OT, both righteous and wicked descended to sheol. Sheol is the OT equivalent of hades. We know this because Acts 2:27 quotes Psa. 16:10 and uses hades in Acts, but sheol in Psalms for the same word. Before Jesus' resurrection from the grave, both the righteous (Gen. 37:35) and the wicked (Psa. 9:17; Prov. 7:27) went down to this place. Shockingly, even Jesus, after his redemptive death and before his bodily resurrection, went to hades (Acts 2:31). It was at this time that he preached to "the spirits in prison who disobeyed" from Noah's day (1 Pet. 3:19, 20, NIV). This fact that Jesus preached from hades to the wicked dead disproves soul sleep, for such would be impossible if both Jesus and his audience were not conscious at that time.

Eccl. 9:5,10

Eccl. 9:5,10 has been misused for support of the faulty concept of "soul sleep." Unfortunately, these verses have been removed from their proper context thereby creating confusion. Please note verses 3-10:
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest (Eccl. 9:3-10).

The "one event," which all will experience "under the sun" is physical death. See also Heb. 9:27. This explains the meaning of the dead know not any thing, that is, the physically dead don't know what goes on "under the sun" where the physically alive are. They don't have any portion with the living anymore, as they once did. Also, in the grave [sheol] there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, all common activities and pursuits among the living "under the sun." Again, 1 Pet. 3:19 is a clear refutation to soul sleep.

In Lk. 16:19-31, Jesus gave some details about the abode of the dead, with its two compartments separated by a great, impassable gulf, as he taught of two people that died and where they went afterwards. Annihilationists, like the JW, attempt to explain away this passage by saying the following:

The remaining text in which Hades is used is found at Luke 16:22-26 in the account of the "rich man" and "Lazarus." The language throughout the account is plainly parabolic and cannot be construed literally in view of all the preceding texts. Note, however, that the "rich man" of the parable is spoken of as being "buried" in Hades, giving further evidence that Hades means the common grave of mankind.(14)
Here's the actual passage about Lazarus and the rich man, who went to hades:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead (KJV).

Not A Parable

Beyond his physical death, Lazarus joined Abraham in a place of comfort. Since Abraham was a real literal OT character, we know from this alone that this teaching cannot be parabolic, as the JW want us to think. Moreover, this passage is not labeled a parable or under the description of parables, as such are oftentimes described in the Gospels (Mt. 13:3, 10, 13, 18, 24, 31, 33, 34, 35, 36, 53; 15:15; 21:33, 45; 22:1; Mk. 3:23; 4:2, 10, 11, 13, 30, 33, 34; 7:17; 12:1, 12; Lk. 5:36; 6:39; 8:4, 9, 10, 11; 12:16, 41; 13:6; 14:7; 15:3; 18:1, 9; 19:11; 20:9, 19; 21:29).
Finally, to accept the rich man and Lazarus teaching as a parable, as the JW want us to, is also to ascribe a very strange interpretation to it which cannot be verified. The following is what the Watch Tower Society teaches:

The rich man in the illustration stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.(15)
There is no Scripture that calls God the Greater Abraham. It is vitally important to remember that the Watchtower Society is a Bible-defined false prophet. (See their long list of false prophecies available through Evangelical Outreach, P. O. Box 265, Washington, PA 15301.) So their strange interpretation of Lk. 16:19-31 must be recognized as coming from such a darkened source. Note: while they say that passage does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell, the Lord Jesus taught otherwise.

The Fire Of Hades

The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 also died and his body was buried. He went to a place of torment in fire:
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame (Lk.16:23, 24, NKJV).
Remember, man's body is clearly not the same as the soul. Jesus taught in Mt. 10:28 that there is a difference between the body of man and his soul by the word both. Therefore, after a person dies physically his soul will live on, as is confirmed by aforementioned passages. So again we see the JW are in error as they teach the following:
... God did not create man with a soul. Man is a soul (italics theirs).(16)
The Greek word translated tormented (basanizo) in Rev. 20:10 is from the word (basanos) rendered torments in Lk. 16:23 and torment in v. 28. This helps us understand how the fire of Hades (Lk. 16:23, 24) can continue to torment, but not annihilate people that die in an unsaved spiritual condition. It also shed understanding on the following passage which states that Hades delivered up the dead in it and will in the end also be thrown into the lake of fire:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (Rev. 20:13, 14, KJV).
Note: the dead in hades, even after thousands of years, were not annihilated out of existence for they were delivered up to be judged, before being thrown into the lake of fire (v. 15).
Also, the second death is another name for the lake of fire. Death in that context means separation not destruction as by annihilation. Remember, when the prodigal was dead he was separated from the Father. For people to experience the second death means that they will be separated from God in a place of burning sulfur where they will be tormented forever.

The same rich person of Lk. 16:19-31 that was tormented in fire could remember his earthly life and was fully conscious as he heard, spoke with Abraham, could see Lazarus and desire water. Hence, the SDA and JW companion teaching of soul sleep is unscriptural. See also Rev. 6:9-11(17) and 1 Pet. 3:19, 20.(l8) This is also a clear refutation to the following JW belief:

So man's senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.(19)
Jonah Prayed From Sheol
Also remember that Jonah was fully conscious as he prayed to God from sheol (Jonah 2:2). What an embarrassment and refutation this fact is to the following JW teaching:
In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment. Rather, it is often linked with death and inactivity.(20)
In contrast, we see both life and activity in Jonah's prayer to God (Jonah 2:1-9). We also see torment in 2:2:
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction [tsarah] unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell [Sheol] cried I, and thou heardest my voice (KJV).
This Hebrew word translated affliction is defined below:
tsarah, tsaw-raw'; fem. of H6862; tightness (i.e. fig. trouble); trans. a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.
Clearly, Jonah suffered torment, since he experienced the above. More precisely, Scripture goes on to declare the following about his distress inside the great fish: The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head. To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God. When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple (2:5-7, NIV).

Though the Watchtower Society makes authoritative declarations as to what the Bible teaches, one must not be deceived by them. They are often proven wrong, as just shown.

Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth

This destination for the evil in fire will also be accompanied with weeping and gnashing of teeth, as is similar to what might be expected from the rich man in hades:
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 13:41, 42, NIV).

How contrary the true message of God's word is from what the JW teach about the lake of fire and annihilation of the wicked dead: It is, at any rate, clear that Jesus used Gehenna as representative of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgment by God, hence with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible. (Matt. 10:28; Luke 12:4, 5).(21)
... a destruction that is eternal and which will always be available to receive any who at any future time should merit destruction by God.(22)
God's word is clear about the future beyond the grave for all who die in a spiritually unsaved condition. They will be thrown into the same lake of fire that will eternally torment the devil, the antichrist and the false prophet (Rev. 20:10, 15 cf. Mt. 25:41-46). Therefore, besides a paradise kingdom of Heaven to gain (Lk. 23:43; Phil.1:21-23 cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 21:4) there is also a lake of fire to shun. This helps reveal how important and how precious salvation is. The Lord Jesus put it in these words:
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (Mk. 8:36, 37, NIV).
One final passage needs to be mentioned and that is Mt. 7:13, 14. It is indirectly related to the eternal torment of the damned for it reveals that the majority of people ever born will miss entering the Kingdom of Heaven and go to this nightmare like place. Dear reader, are you biblically saved at this moment? If not, turn from your sins and place your faith in Jesus for your salvation (Acts 20:21). If you were once saved, but since lost your salvation, repent and come back to the Father like the prodigal (Lk. 15:24, 32). Remember: We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first (Heb. 3:14). See also Mt. 10:22 and Rev. 2:10, 11. In the end, one will either spend all eternity in God's Kingdom with its many joys and pleasures (Isa. 35:10; Mt. 25:21, 23; Rom. 2:7; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 21:4; 22:3; etc.) or will continue to experience pain and torment in an eternal, unquenchable and raging fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels without ever being annihilated and with no hope of getting out. The choice is yours, since God doesn't want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9). Also, many will be deceived by false prophets (Mt. 24:11) such as E. G. White(23) and the Watch Tower Society. Don't be one of their victims or anyone else's that might teach similarly.

I am not here to Judge anyone at all. I am just a human as GOD has made us all to be. . I do not stand above or below any one person. The only one above all is The Lord himself..

We are here As followers of Jesus Christ  whom The Father has sent to us. Jesus is in Authority. we are to carry out HIs Wiill.

looking in the book of Genesis The Bible not only says that We were made of Dust. but The Bible also says that GOd breathed Life into us. that He gave us a "Living Soul""  This soul that GOD gives is the soul that is inside our body that will be judged before GOD.  For what we do in this body . our Soul will go before GOD IN which GOD willl decide our fate, if we have been faithful to him or not..

Jesus is very descriptive about Hell and what we can expect of it.  . Jesus says what shall a man profit to Gain the whole world to Lose HIs own Soul in the Process. Jesus says if your eye causes you to Sin. Pluck it out. or if your hand causes you to sin cut it off. for it is better to lOse your hand or your eye than to have your whole body thrown into Hell..

. if Jesus says it is better to lose your eye or hand than to have your body thrown into Hell. if Hell was only to die. what difference would it make then to lose your eye or hand? if it is worse to be thrown into Hell..

The Bible says Clearly in Revelation. those names who were not found in the Book of Life were thrwown the in the Lake of fire. The Bible also says"Torment". if they are in Torment , they are not Dead. but they are in the second Death called Hell..

listen again. it is a place of outer darkness. I would imagine you could not see anything whatsoever.  Jesus calls it " The Worm that never dies. again. The Worrm that Never dies!!!!.  Jesus is saying The Soul is Burning in the Fire and it is like a Worm waving back and forth the soul that never dies. and the gnashing and wailing of teeth is The pain that is the result of torment. .

. This does not make GOD Evil though. it may appear that way. and I used to ponder on this Myself.

Understand That GOD is a HOly GOD. He is A GOD of LOve. When A person rejects GOD, they not only reject him but they also reject Love, they reject the Truth.

Sin to man is merely just a mistake. but Sin to GOD is much Greater and unpleasing in his eyes.

Thus The Wages of Sin is Death. but the Second Death is Hell which is the Lake of Fire that Burns Forever. Satan the Angels and people who rejected GOD will go to this place..

it is very True that GOD being A LOving GOD does not desire that anyone should perish. for this is why GOD sent His only Son. . . GOD will and has gone out of of way to stop people from going there.  . Hell is the result of rejecting GOD, His only Son, HIs Love, Sacrifice, Truth Mercy and Forgiveness that the World did not want to accept. ..

. Believe in Hell or not believe in Hell. but it is there as the Bible says it is. .

We can not change or twist the Words of The Holy GOD . . Jesus says all things will come to pass. no stroke of a pen will be forgotten.  . The Lake of fire spoken in Revelation is not a Parable. it is a literal fact in the context of those thrown there will be in Torment.  one who just dies is not in torment. one who is in the fire is. .

As A Chrsitan I do not hope or wish anyone goes to this place. > our Job is to seek out for the Lord. to Save those who we can , and Building The Kingdom of GOD. Just as Jesus was here. He did not come to Judge but that whoever would believe in him would be Saved. and we are to cary out the same purpose. not to Judge but to bring those to Salvation. Amen

Quote from: Remnant on Sun Mar 23, 2008 - 16:55:57
Yes it does matter what denomination you are with.  Especially if it is a cult or false religion that twist and adds words to scripture. I also noticed who you pick and chose and do not answer my questions directly.

You know as well as I do that the JW, Or WWCOG Herbert Armstrong or the SDA etc. teach this doctrine of hell.


Are you ashamed of what type of church you are affiliated with?

You said: So?

QuoteWhat does studying and preaching the Bible for 25 years prove?  It's possible that you could have been preaching the wrongly divided Word for 25 years.  How long a person studies the Bible is not a guarantee for truth.  What is important is that the Word of God is rightly divided and the truth is preached.

It proves a lot and what you have done is called me a liar and the men and women of the faith who have preceeded me.

You sir are very condescending and nasty and you can believe the lie instead of the truth but don't propagate it to others.  I know you are affiliated with one of these groups that I have mentioned simply by your rebuttal to the truth.

People like you use the Internet, because they can't find another pulpit to preach this poison.

Whatever.  The truth is still the truth and there is no eternal torture chamber.  This is not the true God.  I think you need to study the Word to learn about the true heart and nature of God.  You obviously do not.

Alethes, You said:

QuoteI think you need to study the Word to learn about the true heart and nature of God.  You obviously do not.

It is you sir that needs to study the word, but the first thing you need to do is own up to your association with others who teach this false doctrine that you are propagating.
You are using the typical switch and bait tactic for JW, SDA, WWOC, Etc. 

The true nature of God Is Love, Justice and The wrath of God who does not accept His son Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.

Think about this...God, out of profound love for you--a vile sinner who has transgressed His commandments--let His own beautiful, dear Son be sacrificed for YOUR sins! Jesus wasn't a sinner. He didn't sin one time. He didn't die for Himself. He died for you. To save YOU. That's why He is called the Saviour. Because He SAVES from hell! If you reject His sacrifice and trod it underfoot it should not be too hard for you to understand that the same God who sacrificed His beloved Son will expeditiously cast your rebellious hind parts into hell and the lake of fire. NOTHING unclean will ever enter God's heaven--and all unregenerate people are unclean. I too was once dead in trespasses and sins, but one lovely day I turned my face to Jesus and got washed in the blood. You can too--no matter what you've done.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18
God does not want you in hell! Jesus came to save you from that horrible place! Don't lie and say God puts people in hell! Get right with Jesus and you won't go there! Look at these scriptures:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)

The Bible says that God loves you so much that the Creator of this universe (Jesus Christ) came to "taste death" for every man. Jesus wasn't just some baby for a manger scene. He is God come in the flesh to destroy the power of death and hell--He holds the keys, people! If you say yes to Jesus, hell won't be your final destination. If you say no to Jesus, hell will be your eternal home. There ain't no getting out and no comfort--it's everlasting.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Jesus Christ took hell so serious — He could say without the slightest hesitation — to remove your eye, cut off your hand or foot, if that would keep you out of hell!

If hell is not real — Jesus Christ was the most deceived man that ever lived!

I'll challenge anyone to read the words of Jesus Christ and tell me they are the words of a deceived man!

Jesus Christ knew exactly what He was talking about!

Alethes, You are the one deceived! Either by what you have been taught to believe or by the devil himself.

Yes God is loving, but He is also just and if any man does not believe on Jesus Christ according to John 3:18 He is condemned already. 

Condemned to what?  Hell of course!  Not just a place to sleep or a place with no retribution or punishment for sin.

Finnally, again I say to anyone who reads this thread, don't fall for this false teaching of JW"S or some other cult on the annihilation for the wicked. But think soberly and understand the truth of the matter.

It is falsely argued by annihilationists, that in Mt 10:28 the word "apollumi" (Strongs #622) means to annihilate into non-existence because every other place this word is used in the TVM of #5658 (Tense - Aorist; Voice - Active; Mood - Infinitive) it means this. The truth is that we find most forms of the word used interchangeably. But remember they power of Mt 10:28 is that Jesus used two different words: Kill the body is all man can do, but destroy or "make lost" is what God does in Hell. Had Jesus used the same word in both instances, then annihilationists would have an argument because for them man can cause another man to cease to exist with a gun in the same way God can cause someone to cease to exist in Hell. But since two different words are used, our argument is powerful. Of course the most powerful argument we have is that only God can destroy the soul and man can only kill the body. The way annihilationists define man as a "mono-unit" of flesh alone, instead of a dichotomous combination of flesh and spirit like God, annihilationists simply cannot explain how man cannot kill the soul.

Quote from: Remnant on Mon Mar 24, 2008 - 21:40:03
Alethes, You said:

QuoteI think you need to study the Word to learn about the true heart and nature of God.  You obviously do not.

It is you sir that needs to study the word, but the first thing you need to do is own up to your association with others who teach this false doctrine that you are propagating.
You are using the typical switch and bait tactic for JW, SDA, WWOC, Etc. 

The true nature of God Is Love, Justice and The wrath of God who does not accept His son Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.

Think about this...God, out of profound love for you--a vile sinner who has transgressed His commandments--let His own beautiful, dear Son be sacrificed for YOUR sins! Jesus wasn't a sinner. He didn't sin one time. He didn't die for Himself. He died for you. To save YOU. That's why He is called the Saviour. Because He SAVES from hell! If you reject His sacrifice and trod it underfoot it should not be too hard for you to understand that the same God who sacrificed His beloved Son will expeditiously cast your rebellious hind parts into hell and the lake of fire. NOTHING unclean will ever enter God's heaven--and all unregenerate people are unclean. I too was once dead in trespasses and sins, but one lovely day I turned my face to Jesus and got washed in the blood. You can too--no matter what you've done.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18
God does not want you in hell! Jesus came to save you from that horrible place! Don't lie and say God puts people in hell! Get right with Jesus and you won't go there! Look at these scriptures:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)

The Bible says that God loves you so much that the Creator of this universe (Jesus Christ) came to "taste death" for every man. Jesus wasn't just some baby for a manger scene. He is God come in the flesh to destroy the power of death and hell--He holds the keys, people! If you say yes to Jesus, hell won't be your final destination. If you say no to Jesus, hell will be your eternal home. There ain't no getting out and no comfort--it's everlasting.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Jesus Christ took hell so serious — He could say without the slightest hesitation — to remove your eye, cut off your hand or foot, if that would keep you out of hell!

If hell is not real — Jesus Christ was the most deceived man that ever lived!

I'll challenge anyone to read the words of Jesus Christ and tell me they are the words of a deceived man!

Jesus Christ knew exactly what He was talking about!

Alethes, You are the one deceived! Either by what you have been taught to believe or by the devil himself.

Yes God is loving, but He is also just and if any man does not believe on Jesus Christ according to John 3:18 He is condemned already. 

Condemned to what?  Hell of course!  Not just a place to sleep or a place with no retribution or punishment for sin.

Finnally, again I say to anyone who reads this thread, don't fall for this false teaching of JW"S or some other cult on the annihilation for the wicked. But think soberly and understand the truth of the matter.

It is falsely argued by annihilationists, that in Mt 10:28 the word "apollumi" (Strongs #622) means to annihilate into non-existence because every other place this word is used in the TVM of #5658 (Tense - Aorist; Voice - Active; Mood - Infinitive) it means this. The truth is that we find most forms of the word used interchangeably. But remember they power of Mt 10:28 is that Jesus used two different words: Kill the body is all man can do, but destroy or "make lost" is what God does in Hell. Had Jesus used the same word in both instances, then annihilationists would have an argument because for them man can cause another man to cease to exist with a gun in the same way God can cause someone to cease to exist in Hell. But since two different words are used, our argument is powerful. Of course the most powerful argument we have is that only God can destroy the soul and man can only kill the body. The way annihilationists define man as a "mono-unit" of flesh alone, instead of a dichotomous combination of flesh and spirit like God, annihilationists simply cannot explain how man cannot kill the soul.

I think I should have added "rightly divide"  to study the Bible.

There are no verses outside of the few in Revelation which need to studied and understood in light of the many clear verses which teach that the wicked will be destoryed, which is the second "death." 

Romans 6:23:  "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The wages of sin is death...period.  If you want to believe God has prepared an eternal torture chamber for the wicked that is your choice.  However, Scripture, when rightly divided, does not tells us so.

Quote from: Alethes on Tue Mar 25, 2008 - 13:33:33

Quote from: Remnant on Mon Mar 24, 2008 - 21:40:03
Alethes, You said:

QuoteI think you need to study the Word to learn about the true heart and nature of God.  You obviously do not.

It is you sir that needs to study the word, but the first thing you need to do is own up to your association with others who teach this false doctrine that you are propagating.
You are using the typical switch and bait tactic for JW, SDA, WWOC, Etc. 

The true nature of God Is Love, Justice and The wrath of God who does not accept His son Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.

Think about this...God, out of profound love for you--a vile sinner who has transgressed His commandments--let His own beautiful, dear Son be sacrificed for YOUR sins! Jesus wasn't a sinner. He didn't sin one time. He didn't die for Himself. He died for you. To save YOU. That's why He is called the Saviour. Because He SAVES from hell! If you reject His sacrifice and trod it underfoot it should not be too hard for you to understand that the same God who sacrificed His beloved Son will expeditiously cast your rebellious hind parts into hell and the lake of fire. NOTHING unclean will ever enter God's heaven--and all unregenerate people are unclean. I too was once dead in trespasses and sins, but one lovely day I turned my face to Jesus and got washed in the blood. You can too--no matter what you've done.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18
God does not want you in hell! Jesus came to save you from that horrible place! Don't lie and say God puts people in hell! Get right with Jesus and you won't go there! Look at these scriptures:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)

The Bible says that God loves you so much that the Creator of this universe (Jesus Christ) came to "taste death" for every man. Jesus wasn't just some baby for a manger scene. He is God come in the flesh to destroy the power of death and hell--He holds the keys, people! If you say yes to Jesus, hell won't be your final destination. If you say no to Jesus, hell will be your eternal home. There ain't no getting out and no comfort--it's everlasting.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Jesus Christ took hell so serious — He could say without the slightest hesitation — to remove your eye, cut off your hand or foot, if that would keep you out of hell!

If hell is not real — Jesus Christ was the most deceived man that ever lived!

I'll challenge anyone to read the words of Jesus Christ and tell me they are the words of a deceived man!

Jesus Christ knew exactly what He was talking about!

Alethes, You are the one deceived! Either by what you have been taught to believe or by the devil himself.

Yes God is loving, but He is also just and if any man does not believe on Jesus Christ according to John 3:18 He is condemned already. 

Condemned to what?  Hell of course!  Not just a place to sleep or a place with no retribution or punishment for sin.

Finnally, again I say to anyone who reads this thread, don't fall for this false teaching of JW"S or some other cult on the annihilation for the wicked. But think soberly and understand the truth of the matter.

It is falsely argued by annihilationists, that in Mt 10:28 the word "apollumi" (Strongs #622) means to annihilate into non-existence because every other place this word is used in the TVM of #5658 (Tense - Aorist; Voice - Active; Mood - Infinitive) it means this. The truth is that we find most forms of the word used interchangeably. But remember they power of Mt 10:28 is that Jesus used two different words: Kill the body is all man can do, but destroy or "make lost" is what God does in Hell. Had Jesus used the same word in both instances, then annihilationists would have an argument because for them man can cause another man to cease to exist with a gun in the same way God can cause someone to cease to exist in Hell. But since two different words are used, our argument is powerful. Of course the most powerful argument we have is that only God can destroy the soul and man can only kill the body. The way annihilationists define man as a "mono-unit" of flesh alone, instead of a dichotomous combination of flesh and spirit like God, annihilationists simply cannot explain how man cannot kill the soul.

I think I should have added "rightly divide"  to study the Bible.

There are no verses outside of the few in Revelation which need to studied and understood in light of the many clear verses which teach that the wicked will be destoryed, which is the second "death." 

Romans 6:23:  "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The wages of sin is death...period.  If you want to believe God has prepared an eternal torture chamber for the wicked that is your choice.  However, Scripture, when rightly divided, does not tells us so.

Aletehes, Again you will not face up to the truth! And you continue to propagate this falsehood of cults.

When one rightly devides the word of truth, in which you haven't!  They take the whole councel of god on the matter instead of taken a scripture or two out of context and adding things to it.  Like you and other cult members have done to get people to think their way and become members of their group.

Quote from: Remnant on Tue Mar 25, 2008 - 13:53:26
Aletehes, Again you will not face up to the truth! And you continue to propagate this falsehood of cults.

When one rightly devides the word of truth, in which you haven't!  They take the whole councel of god on the matter instead of taken a scripture or two out of context and adding things to it.  Like you and other cult members have done to get people to think their way and become members of their group.

You mean anyone who doesn't agree with "your so-called theory" is a cult.  Well I have only one thing to say to your comment---> 

Alethes, You said:

QuoteYou mean anyone who doesn't agree with "your so-called theory" is a cult

First it is not my theory, it is God's condemnation for the wicked who reject Jesus as their Savior and Lord. It is also what Jesus said to be true about hell.

What you are teaching is the same thing these cults that I have mentioned teach. That is not just coincidental!

I always thought that man, once released from his physical earth body, is a eternal spiritual being....whether he is a believer or unbeliever.  The believers will live with God, the unbelievers won't.  I can't think of a worse hell that realizing you made such a bad judgement call during your life in the flesh, that only was a spec of time in comparison to eternity, that you are now separated from God for all of eternity.  Earth was the big test and you blew it.

I don't see it as a 'flesh burning'.  I see it as wishing you had one drop of water from the fountain of life (Jesus) because your spirit is so dry and parched.  Yes, this would cause gnashing of teeth and endless suffering.  But I look at it as eternal mental anguish.  To me, this is much what water baptism on earth by the believer signifies or is a 'type of' .  He will never be dry, parched and in eternal anguish.

The Bible says that on earth, God gives rain and sunshine to both believers and unbelievers alike. This won't be the case after the fact.  Mankind has painted a picture in their mind of what they think hell is like because they really have no idea the way God acts or operates in a higher eternal realm.

I could be wrong. 

Glory, I understand how one can say that, but what we see is not always what the bible says it is. Whether we see it a certain way does not matter, but what goes word says that matters. God's way's are not our way's!

For example, I would like to think that one day whe I get to heaven that me an my wife will spend eternity in that wonderful state of eternal marriage, but I know according to scripture that this is not true.