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To address the issue of bowing, you might want to read the following:

Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn't worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

And how can you explain the Catholic Church's condemnation of idolatry?...

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, 'I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.' . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who 'transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God'" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know his Bible.

You know you've done a nice little bob and weave there, broach.  Yet again, you've attempted to draw a parallel which simply isn't parallel.

Aren't you guys taking this a little overboard.  We see that other religions worship idols correct?  Which is wrong, correct?  The bottom line is we are not supposed to worship anything other than God!!!

1Sa 15:23  For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idol-worship. Because you have rejected the Word of Jehovah, He has also rejected you from being king!

2Ki 23:5  And he put down the idol-worshiping priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places around Jerusalem. He also put down those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the heavens.


Idol
I'DOL, n. [L. idolum; Gr. form or to see.]

1. An image, form or representation, usually of a man or other animal, consecrated as an object of worship; a pagan deity. Idols are usually statues or images, carved out of wood or stone, or formed of metals, particularly silver or gold.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 15:54:47
You know you've done a nice little bob and weave there, broach.  Yet again, you've attempted to draw a parallel which simply isn't parallel.

Not really, just using a little common sense.  Maybe since I am already Catholic, I can recognize the difference and make the distinction.  It isn't rocket science to me.  I think the disconnect exists in the difference of perspectives and points of view.  I have been Catholic for over a year now.  I have never worshipped a statue.  Why would I?  Only God is worshipped.  I have yet to meet a Catholic who thinks otherwise.

Keep pondering it...it will come to you eventually.

Quote from: NewsWatcher on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 15:57:38

Idol
I'DOL, n. [L. idolum; Gr. form or to see.]

1. An image, form or representation, usually of a man or other animal, consecrated as an object of worship; a pagan deity. Idols are usually statues or images, carved out of wood or stone, or formed of metals, particularly silver or gold.

I bolded the above words for a reason...this should help.

Idol
Idol. An image or anything used as an object of worship in place of the true God.

Hows this definition then?

or even better:

Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

Quote from: NewsWatcher on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:06:37
Idol
Idol. An image or anything used as an object of worship in place of the true God.

Hows this definition then?

or even better:

Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

Pay attention to the bolded words...extremely important.  I think you may be close to understanding the distinction...keep pondering it.

 

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:13:48

Well, I have tried to spell it out for him, but that hasn't helped.  I figured that I could at least point him in the right direction.  He may actually get it on his own.  It is like watching a student ponder and think over a problem, then finally the light comes on.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:16:04

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:13:48

Well, I have tried to spell it out for him, but that hasn't helped.  I figured that I could at least point him in the right direction.  He may actually get it on his own.  It is like watching a student ponder and think over a problem, then finally the light comes on.

This is like watching the great Wizard of Oz say "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...".

Quote from: NewsWatcher on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:06:37
Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

I guess I'm an idolator:

Col 1:15  Who is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:44:20

Quote from: NewsWatcher on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:06:37
Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

I guess I'm an idolator:

Col 1:15  Who is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I don't think it counts if the ikon is really God.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:20:30

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:16:04

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:13:48

Well, I have tried to spell it out for him, but that hasn't helped.  I figured that I could at least point him in the right direction.  He may actually get it on his own.  It is like watching a student ponder and think over a problem, then finally the light comes on.

This is like watching the great Wizard of Oz say "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...".

That is EXACTLY what it's like EVERYTIME they use that "visual aid" argument.

Jesus says "Blessed is He who has not seen and believes"... and yet they make up whole doctrine to explain that they have not seen and in order to believe they must see. 

It's called faith...  You walk by faith, not by sight... if you need visual aids, your faith might be amiss.  IMHO.

Faith does not need visual aids. 

And it is CERTAINLY NOT like teaching a student where "Egypt" is on a World Map.  What would having a statue of Mary bring to the discussion about who Mary is or where she is or anything concerning her.  It doesn't show where she is in relation to us or to the tomb or any such nonsense, like a map can do for a student.

The comparrison is so far different... it does not even relate. But, an artful twist on visual aids, as they go.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:49:21

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:44:20
I guess I'm an idolator:

Col 1:15  Who is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I don't think it counts if the ikon is really God.

Thats not what the dictionary said.  It said, "Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form."  So I'm an idolator.

By the way, the 2nd commandment is pretty sweeping.  It doesn't just bar us from worshiping statues, it seems to forbid us from making statues at all:

Exd 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:57:06
By the way, the 2nd commandment is pretty sweeping.  It doesn't just bar us from worshiping statues, it seems to forbid us from making statues at all:

Exd 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

That would seem to be the case.   This is why, "We don't worship the statue, we worship God through the statue," talk doesn't get past the commandment, imho.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:57:06
By the way, the 2nd commandment is pretty sweeping.  It doesn't just bar us from worshiping statues, it seems to forbid us from making statues at all:

Exd 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

You have a slight problem then...

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David's plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

and...

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:55:52

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:49:21

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:44:20
I guess I'm an idolator:

Col 1:15  Who is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I don't think it counts if the ikon is really God.

Thats not what the dictionary said.  It said, "Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form."  So I'm an idolator.

Look a a little closer:

Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

Jesus was not a symbolic representation of the invisible God, but the real thing.

Broach, they were commanded to make the two statues at the command of God.  By whose command are statues of the saints now made and venerated?  BCV if you got 'em.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:11:10

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:55:52

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:49:21

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:44:20
I guess I'm an idolator:

Col 1:15  Who is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I don't think it counts if the ikon is really God.

Thats not what the dictionary said.  It said, "Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form."  So I'm an idolator.

Look a a little closer:

Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

Jesus was not a symbolic representation of the invisible God, but the real thing.

Isn't Ikon the Greek word for Idol?  Is this a question of when is an idol not an idol?

Don't you find it more than a little odd that I'm arguing that I'm wrong and you're arguing that I'm right?

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:10:15

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:57:06
By the way, the 2nd commandment is pretty sweeping.  It doesn't just bar us from worshiping statues, it seems to forbid us from making statues at all:

Exd 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

You have a slight problem then...

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.

Lots of good examples edited out for space considerations.

Yes, and He also forbid them to murder, and then told them to kill every last man, woman, child, and animal of the Amalekites.

When you make the rules, you get to make the exceptions.  (Sovereignty 101)

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:22:32
Broach, they were commanded to make the two statues at the command of God.  By whose command are statues of the saints now made and venerated?  BCV if you got 'em.

And that is just the point, there was no veneration or honor of these.  People weren't even to touch the Ark of the covenant. Even those who carried it, could not touch it. But, they had poles that went through rings to carry it with.  Certainly if someone were to hand on to it and pray, they would have been struck dead.

This was something consecrated for God's purpose alone and He is God. But, the statues we see today were not by God's design or command, and have nothing to do with His purpose. 

"Walk by faith, not by sight"... it's just that simple. 

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:33:27

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:10:15

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:57:06
By the way, the 2nd commandment is pretty sweeping.  It doesn't just bar us from worshiping statues, it seems to forbid us from making statues at all:

Exd 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

You have a slight problem then...

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.

Lots of good examples edited out for space considerations.

Yes, and He also forbid them to murder, and then told them to kill every last man, woman, child, and animal of the Amalekites.

When you make the rules, you get to make the exceptions.  (Sovereignty 101)

Are you mocking God Almighty?  He told them to kill the "IDOL" worshippers who were sacraficing children to false gods.  He was rooting out the evil. Letting no one survive who could rekindle the evil they were perpetrating.  And we see that when Saul did not follow through and left one living... that is what happened. Haman came to destroy the Jews again. 

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:26:26

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:11:10

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:55:52

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:49:21

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:44:20
I guess I'm an idolator:

Col 1:15  Who is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I don't think it counts if the ikon is really God.

Thats not what the dictionary said.  It said, "Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form."  So I'm an idolator.

Look a a little closer:

Idolatry
Idolatry. Idolatry, strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities, which have been made the objects of worship in his stead.

Jesus was not a symbolic representation of the invisible God, but the real thing.

Isn't Ikon the Greek word for Idol?  Is this a question of when is an idol not an idol?

Don't you find it more than a little odd that I'm arguing that I'm wrong and you're arguing that I'm right?

I thought you were arguing that worshiping Jesus by Col 1:15 made one an idolater, we must have a misunderstanding.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:26:26


Isn't Ikon the Greek word for Idol?  Is this a question of when is an idol not an idol?

No.  The ikon is the Greek word for image.   We have always used images in helping us worship (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant.)  This is really for another thread.

Back to topic. 

Did you know that the term Pope was not first used to describe the Bishop of Rome?
Saint Athanasius was, I think, the first person to be called Pope.  People, for good reason, had great affection for him, so, he was called "Papa" which became Pope.  But he was the head of the Patriarchate of Alexandria.  Today, the Coptic church (which is that Patriarchate) calls its head "Pope." (Pope Shenouda is the current Alexandrian Pope).

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:22:32
Broach, they were commanded to make the two statues at the command of God.  By whose command are statues of the saints now made and venerated?  BCV if you got 'em.

There is so much wrong with this statement...but I will play along.

We don't hold to sola scriptura, so pulling a "BCV" doesn't have much meaning for me...but even if it did....

Where in Scripture does God forbid the use of icons for religious and liturgical purposes? BCV please....

I sincerely doubt that God would contradict Himself.  Why would He command the creation of religous icons while banning others?  Makes no sense that you would assume that He would automatically impose a blanket ban.  No where is this mention in Scripture.

There isn't Catholic that I know of, including myself, who believes that statues are deities worthy of worship.  Icons are just materials used for religious and liturgical purposes.  The teachings of the Catholic Church on idolatry are clear and precise as stated above in post.

"There is so much wrong with that statement."

Thanks, I'll just start pasting that in all my responses to you.  It'll save me typing. 

Where in scripture does God allow for the use of graven images, besides those in the temple?  That was the question, and you haven't answered it.

For those interested, here is the definition of Idolatry from ISBE.

IDOLATRY
(i-dol'-a-tri) (teraphim, "household idols," "idolatry"; eidololatreia):

There is ever in the human mind a craving for visible forms to express religious conceptions, and this tendency does not disappear with the acceptance, or even with the constant recognition, of pure spiritual truths (see IMAGES ). Idolatry originally meant the worship of idols, or the worship of false gods by means of idols, but came to mean among the Old Testament Hebrews any worship of false gods, whether by images or otherwise, and finally the worship of Yahweh through visible symbols (Hos 8:5-6; 10:5); and ultimately in the New Testament idolatry came to mean, not only the giving to any creature or human creation the honor or devotion which belonged to God alone, but the giving to any human desire a precedence over God's will (1 Cor 10:14; Gal 5:20; Col 3:5; 1 Peter 4:3).


CRP

Yup.

Quote from: broach972 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 07:40:07

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:22:32
Broach, they were commanded to make the two statues at the command of God.  By whose command are statues of the saints now made and venerated?  BCV if you got 'em.

There is so much wrong with this statement...but I will play along.

We don't hold to sola scriptura, so pulling a "BCV" doesn't have much meaning for me...but even if it did....

Where in Scripture does God forbid the use of icons for religious and liturgical purposes? BCV please....

I sincerely doubt that God would contradict Himself.  Why would He command the creation of religous icons while banning others?  Makes no sense that you would assume that He would automatically impose a blanket ban.  No where is this mention in Scripture.

There isn't Catholic that I know of, including myself, who believes that statues are deities worthy of worship.  Icons are just materials used for religious and liturgical purposes.  The teachings of the Catholic Church on idolatry are clear and precise as stated above in post.

I understand that you make a mental distinction between worshiping the statue itself and worshiping God "through" the statue (or, as you put it, using the statue as a "visual aid").

Exodus 20:4 (NASB):
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.


I do wonder if God would apply "any likeness of what is in heaven above" to Himself, since He is in heaven?  Also, it seems that setting up an image or sacred stone, representing not only God/Jesus, but also past saints, especially Mary and bowing before it... seems precariously close to what is being addressed in Leviticus 26.  I'm sure you can understand that concern.

On another note, do you think it's possible that some Catholics fail to make the mental distinction you make and place just a little too much devotion to the image itself?  We hear stories of images of Jesus or Mary appearing in different places (anything from how the light reflects on a certain surface at a particular time of day... to the pattern that has mysteriously shown up on a piece of toasted bread or a cinnamon roll).  Some people tend to want to make a shrine out of these things.

You can make semantical distinctions between "icons" and "idols" and say you're not worshiping the image but only the God the image represents (or... worshiping the God of the person the image represents, as the case may be).  But, at the end of the day, people gathering around, bowing down, and offering prayers in front of a statue... "looks" just a little too similar to the type of thing being addressed in the scriptures above.  That's the bottom line for those of us who object to these things.

By the way, I was raised with a fairly extensive application of this.  Many in the churches I was raised in would even object to extensive use of crosses or even pictures of things in the stained glass of church buildings.  I've even heard arguments against church steeples.  That explains why you might find some churches to be rather plain and non-ornate.

This was apparently what the "Iconoclasts" were reacting to as well.  So, concerns over this didn't start with the post-Lutheran Protestants.  There were objections to the use of images in worship in the first millennium of Christianity.

Great post DCR.

(Rather than split the discussion, it was easier just to rename it to include the statue/icon issue...)

A little history on the Iconoclasts via Will Durant's The Age of Faith, p. 425-427:

QuoteII. THE ICONOCLASTS: 717-802

Leo III derived his cognomen from the district of Isauna in Cilicia; according to Theophanes he was born there of Armenian parentage. His father moved thence to Thrace, raised sheep, and sent 500 of them, with his son Leo in the bargain, as a present to the Emperor Justinian II. Leo became a guardsman of the palace, then commander of the Anatolian legions, finally, by the convincing suffrage of the army, emperor. He was a man of ambition, strong will and patient perseverance; a general who repeatedly defeated Moslem forces greatly superior to his own; a statesman who gave the Empire the stability of just laws justly enforced, reformed taxation, reduced serfdom, extended peasant proprietorship, distributed lands, repopulated deserted regions, and constructively revised the laws. His only fault was autocracy.

Perhaps in his Asiatic youth he had imbibed from Moslems, Jews, Manicheans, Monophysites, and Paulicians a Stoic-Puritan conception of religion I 1,11 condemned the addiction of popular Christianity to image worship, ceremonialism, and superstition. The Old Testament (Deut. iv, 15) had explicitly forbidden any "graven image of any figure, male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth." The early Church had frowned upon images as relics of paganism, and had looked with horror upon pagan sculptures purporting to represent the gods. But the triumph of Christianity under Constantine, and the influence of Greek surroundings, traditions, and statuary in Constantinople and the Hellenistic East, had softened this opposition As the number of worshiped saints multiplied, a need arose for identifying and remembering them; pictures of them and of Mary were produced in great number; and in the case of Christ not only His imagined form but His cross became objects of reverence—even, for simple minds, magic talismans. A natural freedom of fancy among the people turned the holy relics, pictures, and statues into objects of adoration; people prostrated themselves before them, kissed them, burned candles and incense before them, crowned them with flowers, and sought miracles from their occult influence. In Greek Christianity especially, sacred images were everywhere—in churches, monasteries, houses and shops, even on furniture, trinkets, and clothes. Cities in danger from epidemic, famine, or war tended to rely upon the power of the relics they harbored, or on their patron saint, rather than on human enterprise. Fathers and councils of the Church repeatedly explained that the images were not deities, but only reminders thereof; the people did not care to make such distinctions.

Leo III was offended by these excesses of popular faith; it seemed to him that paganism was in this manner reconquering Christianity; and he felt keenly the satire directed by Moslems, Jews, and Christian sects against the superstitions of the orthodox multitude. To weaken the power of the monks over the people and the government, and win the support of Nestorians and Monophysites, he assembled a great council of bishops and senators, and with their consent he promulgated in 726 an edict requiring the complete removal of icons from the churches; representations of Christ and the Virgin were forbidden; and church murals were to be covered with plaster. Some of the higher clergy supported the edict; the lower clergy and the monks protested, the people revolted. Soldiers trying to enforce the law were attacked by worshipers horrified and infuriated by this desecration of the dearest symbols of their faith. In Greece and the Cyclades rebel forces proclaimed a rival emperor, and sent a fleet to capture the capital. Leo destroyed the fleet, and imprisoned the leaders of the opposition. In Italy, where pagan forms of worship had never died, the people were almost unanimous against the edict; Venice, Ravenna, and Rome drove out the Imperial officers; and a council of Western bishops summoned by Pope Gregory II anathematized the Iconoclasts—image breakers—without naming the Emperor. The patriarch of Constantinople joined the revolt, and sought by it to restore the independence of the Eastern Church from the state. Leo deposed him (730), but did him no violence; and the edict was so mildly enforced that when Leo died (741) most of the churches retained their frescoes and mosaics unharmed.

His son Constantine V (741-75) continued his policy, and received from hostile historians the genial epithet of Copronymus—"named from dung." A council of Eastern bishops, called by him at Constantinople (754), condemned image worship as "abominable," charged that through such worship "Satan had re-introduced idolatry," denounced "the ignorant artist who with his unclean hands gives form to that which should be believed only by the heart," and decreed that all images in the churches should be erased or destroyed. Constantine executed the decree without moderation or tact; imprisoned and tortured resisting monks; again eyes or tongues were torn out, noses were cut off, the patriarch was tortured and beheaded (767). Like Henry VIII, Constantine V closed monasteries and convents, confiscated their property, turned the buildings to secular uses, and bestowed monastic lands upon his favorites. At Ephesus the imperial governor, with the approval of the Emperor, assembled the monks and nuns of the province, and forced' them to marry one another as an alternative to death,  The persecution continued for five years (765-71).

Constantine exacted from his son Leo IV (775-80) an oath to continue the Iconoclastic policy; Leo did what he could despite his weak constitution. Dying, he named his ten-year-old son Constantine VI as emperor (780-97), and nominated his widow, the Empress Irene, as regent during the youth's minority. She ruled with ability and without scruple. Sympathizing with the religious feelings of the people and her sex, she quietly ended the enforcement of the Iconoclast edicts; permitted the monks to return to their monasteries and their pulpits, and convened the prelates of Christendom in the Second Council of Nicaea (787), where 350 bishops, under the lead of papal legates, restored the veneration—not the worship—of sacred images as a legitimate expression of Christian piety and faith.

In 790 Constantine VI came of age. Finding his mother reluctant to surrender her power, he deposed and exiled her. Soon the amiable youth relented; he brought her back to court, and associated her with him in the imperial power (792). In 797 she had him imprisoned and blinded, and thereafter reigned under the title of emperor—not basilissa but basileus. For five years she administered the Empire with wisdom and finesse: lowered taxes, scattered largess among the poor, founded charitable institutions, and beautified the capital. The people applauded and loved her, but the army fretted at being ruled by a woman more capable than most men. In 802 the Iconoclasts revolted, deposed her, and made her treasurer Nicephorus emperor. She yielded quietly, and asked of him only a decent and safe retreat; he promised it, but banished her to Lesbos, and left her to earn a scanty living as a seamstress. Nine months later she died, with hardly a penny or a friend. The theologians forgave her crimes because of her piety, and the Church canonized her as a saint.

Please forgive any typos/mispellings.  I scanned it and did the OCR thing and tried to catch as many mistakes as I could, but I only had so much time.

QuoteYou can make semantical distinctions between "icons" and "idols" and say you're not worshiping the image but only the God the image represents (or... worshiping the God of the person the image represents, as the case may be).  But, at the end of the day, people gathering around, bowing down, and offering prayers in front of a statue... "looks" just a little too similar to the type of thing being addressed in the scriptures above.  That's the bottom line for those of us who object to these things.

Not to be argumentative DCR, but quite frankly, I doubt most Catholics really care how something looks to you.  It's a bit narcissistic to think that a group of people's worship practices should cater to what you (a non-Catholic) think they should look like.  If Catholics say "We're not worshiping idols," then why can they not be taken at their word?  It seems that no matter how much explanation is offered, it is not satisfactory to you guys.  And I'm not sure why the Catholics on the board think they should have to satisfy you or justify anything to you.