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Quote from: don has a plan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 13:10:41It's a bit narcissistic to think that a group of people's worship practices should cater to what you (a non-Catholic) think they should look like.

Catering to what non-Catholics "think they should look like" is not the issue.  Rather, the issue is whether Scripture condemns or forbids "what it looks like."

Quote from: don has a plan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 13:10:41If Catholics say "We're not worshiping idols," then why can they not be taken at their word?

Notice that I wasn't even leaning on the accusation of, "You're worshiping idols!" nor have I accused anyone directly and specifically of "worshiping idols" per se.  One of the points I was trying to get across was that the scriptures we've discussed here are even broader than that.  Exodus 20 and Leviticus 26, when taken together, describe bowing down before "images" and "sacred stones"... made in "any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath..."  The passages seem to address even going through the very motions of this, regardless of what the "worshiper's" subtle perceptions/distinctions are about what's going on.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 18:58:22

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:33:27
Yes, and He also forbid them to murder, and then told them to kill every last man, woman, child, and animal of the Amalekites.

When you make the rules, you get to make the exceptions.  (Sovereignty 101)

Are you mocking God Almighty?  He told them to kill the "IDOL" worshippers who were sacraficing children to false gods.  He was rooting out the evil. Letting no one survive who could rekindle the evil they were perpetrating.  And we see that when Saul did not follow through and left one living... that is what happened. Haman came to destroy the Jews again. 

No, I am not mocking God.  He was justified.  He's always justified.  I learned a while back that trying to judge God's actions is just plain stupid.  That's actually kind of my point.

Someone proposed that God was wrong, because He violated His own rule.  But God is not bound by the rules He makes, unless He chooses to so bind Himself.  The rule-r is above the rule-s. 

Sovereignty trumps everything.  That's why all theodicial questions do not have a "right answer."

Quote from: trifecta on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 02:36:36

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:26:26
Isn't Ikon the Greek word for Idol?  Is this a question of when is an idol not an idol?

No.  The ikon is the Greek word for image.   We have always used images in helping us worship (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant.)  This is really for another thread.

Sorry, just basing my definition on its usage through the NT.  Most of which is in Revelation.

So what's the difference?  Is it like one is a painting and the other is a statue, or what?

Exodus 20:4 (NASB):
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.


This could actually read... "You shall not make for yourself an idol or any visual aid of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Quote from: DCR on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 09:36:02
(Rather than split the discussion, it was easier just to rename it to include the statue/icon issue...)

Okay, but the Pope and icons have little in common.  The Orthodox Church has icons but no Pope or statues.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 15:08:26

Quote from: trifecta on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 02:36:36

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:26:26
Isn't Ikon the Greek word for Idol?  Is this a question of when is an idol not an idol?

No.  The ikon is the Greek word for image.   We have always used images in helping us worship (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant.)  This is really for another thread.

Sorry, just basing my definition on its usage through the NT.  Most of which is in Revelation.

You guys are just looking at the negative use of the word "image."  What about?

   Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." (Gen 1:26).

    A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; (1 Cor 11: 6-8)

And, how about
   
   The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see  the  light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:4).

So, the word ikon (icon) also describes Jesus, man, and the Trinity. 

Quote from: kensington on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 19:24:29
Exodus 20:4 (NASB):
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.


This could actually read... "You shall not make for yourself an idol or any visual aid of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

This a problem of pulling verses out of context of the Bible and the church.  John of Damascus answered this objection in the 9th century (or there abouts).   Admittedly, if you look just at that verse, it is a good argument.  But, when God instructed to build the Ark of the Covenant.  He instructed that images of angels be carved on it (heavenly images) and things like flowers and trees (earthly images).  (Exodus 25)

Under this strict definition, a painting of flowers or trees would be an idol.  Do you have these in your homes?  Taken in context of the OT, the images aren't the problems.  It is the worship of images.

So some of you say, the bowing before such images is worship.  In the OT, the problem
God has with idols is they are false gods.  Those people were worshipping the idols because they thought they were gods.

Just as a painting of Sunflowers makes us appreciate the beauty of God's creation, icons remind us of the beauty of the people portrayed.

Quote
So what's the difference?  Is it like one is a painting and the other is a statue, or what?

Statues are three-dimensional; icons are paintings.  Icons, by the way, are purposely distorted as they represent both the physical and spiritual aspects of the people depicted. 

Quote from: DCR on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 09:28:49

By the way, I was raised with a fairly extensive application of this.  Many in the churches I was raised in would even object to extensive use of crosses or even pictures of things in the stained glass of church buildings.  I've even heard arguments against church steeples.  That explains why you might find some churches to be rather plain and non-ornate.

I understand this tendency (I was a Protestant for many years), but I see this and it makes me sad that some churches feel that any physical beauty is a bad thing.  God is beautiful and Romans 1 even talks about how God's beauty is revealed in nature.

Quote

This was apparently what the "Iconoclasts" were reacting to as well.  So, concerns over this didn't start with the post-Lutheran Protestants.  There were objections to the use of images in worship in the first millennium of Christianity.

And the Iconoclasts were condemned by the church.  The 7th Ecumenical Council not only approves of worship with icons, but encourages it.  After this council, the Iconoclasts struck back, but were defeated. 

This thread has turned out to be interesting, for a number of reasons... 

How can a verse that speaks specifically to "visual aids" .... or statues... be out of context?

That is so silly. 

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 15:05:12

Quote from: mllevaleur on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 14:24:29

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 13:24:53

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 12:54:42
Lumped together, it also reinforces that worship of the one true God is not to be done through created idols, istm.

Agreed, especially in consideration of verses like Lev 26:1.

Indeed, we don't create objects in order to worship them as the verse condemns. 

This is so silly, if you have a statue, and you are on your knees, hands folded praying, directing that prayer in the direction of the statue... that is worship. 

And I'd say, you can't know a person's specific intention in this case just by looking at their outward posture, especially when you're not familiar with "Catholic body language," so you have to be judging someone's heart to make that assumption, which is God's job, not ours.

Bottom line is we do not believe the hunks of marble or stone are in any way deities. They are visual aids, like having a picture of a deceased relative or family members who are far away in your home to remind you of them.

What's funny is, in all my years as a Catholic so far I've yet to actually see many people kneeling in front of statues in person. We certainly kneel in the presence of statues (like at mass) but that's normally while the Eucharist is being consecrated, which we do believe is God. I still don't think there's anything wrong with kneeling to pray to God or ask for prayers in front of a statue, but I don't think it's as frequent as non-Catholics tend to assume.

QuoteIdols are statutes of the Gods men created in their minds to worship.

I agree completely...key words, "to worship." We didn't create any statues to worship them.

QuoteBaal... was a false god. The People worshipped Baal.  They could have done it by life, gestures and in their hearts and minds, but they took it one step farther and made "visual aids" to bow to and to pray to.

That is the same thing.  They made images of all manner of gods they had. They were visual aids to the gods they created. Just like you see in the pictures of those praying to the crucifix, or the Pope, or Mary. Those are images made to aid in the worship/adoration of those people in your minds and hearts.

There is no difference. 

I disagree. We don't see these statues as gods themselves, nor do we consider the people gods themselves. They are good Christian examples. Just like we make statues of historical people, does that mean we're worshipping the statues of George Washington or Abraham Lincoln? No...we're just honoring them and what they did for our country. Big difference between worship and honor.

Quote from: NewsWatcher on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 15:57:38
Aren't you guys taking this a little overboard.  We see that other religions worship idols correct?  Which is wrong, correct?  The bottom line is we are not supposed to worship anything other than God!!!

1Sa 15:23  For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idol-worship. Because you have rejected the Word of Jehovah, He has also rejected you from being king!

2Ki 23:5  And he put down the idol-worshiping priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places around Jerusalem. He also put down those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the heavens.


Idol
I'DOL, n. [L. idolum; Gr. form or to see.]

1. An image, form or representation, usually of a man or other animal, consecrated as an object of worship; a pagan deity. Idols are usually statues or images, carved out of wood or stone, or formed of metals, particularly silver or gold.

I agree completely. They are objects intended to be worshipped, as the definition says.

We do not worship any object. We worship God alone.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:02:43

Quote from: NewsWatcher on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 15:57:38

Idol
I'DOL, n. [L. idolum; Gr. form or to see.]

1. An image, form or representation, usually of a man or other animal, consecrated as an object of worship; a pagan deity. Idols are usually statues or images, carved out of wood or stone, or formed of metals, particularly silver or gold.

I bolded the above words for a reason...this should help.

Lol...I should have kept reading and just dittoed you.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:00:37

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:57:06
By the way, the 2nd commandment is pretty sweeping.  It doesn't just bar us from worshiping statues, it seems to forbid us from making statues at all:

Exd 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

That would seem to be the case.   This is why, "We don't worship the statue, we worship God through the statue," talk doesn't get past the commandment, imho.

Yes but if this is what is meant, it goes much farther than that! It means that not only should Catholics not have statues, it means we can't make ANY image of anything at all. We can't make a statue of George Washington, we can't paint a picture of the ocean, we can't make any kind of image or statue of anything in heaven or on earth, period.

And if that is the case, again, God contradicts Himself when he then commands the construction of golden cherubim.

Now, if we take the whole commandment as meaning "You can't make anything, whether a picture of a tree, or a statue of a person, or a carving of an animal, anything in heaven or on earth in order to worship it," it all makes sense and falls into place. God isn't asking the golden cherubim to be worshipped, and we understand that a statue of George Washington isn't made to be worshipped, and Catholics don't make statues to be worshipped.

So...to me, that makes the most sense.

Quote from: DCR on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 09:28:49

Quote from: broach972 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 07:40:07

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:22:32
Broach, they were commanded to make the two statues at the command of God.  By whose command are statues of the saints now made and venerated?  BCV if you got 'em.

There is so much wrong with this statement...but I will play along.

We don't hold to sola scriptura, so pulling a "BCV" doesn't have much meaning for me...but even if it did....

Where in Scripture does God forbid the use of icons for religious and liturgical purposes? BCV please....

I sincerely doubt that God would contradict Himself.  Why would He command the creation of religous icons while banning others?  Makes no sense that you would assume that He would automatically impose a blanket ban.  No where is this mention in Scripture.

There isn't Catholic that I know of, including myself, who believes that statues are deities worthy of worship.  Icons are just materials used for religious and liturgical purposes.  The teachings of the Catholic Church on idolatry are clear and precise as stated above in post.

I understand that you make a mental distinction between worshiping the statue itself and worshiping God "through" the statue (or, as you put it, using the statue as a "visual aid").

Exodus 20:4 (NASB):
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

I don't want to sound like I'm pulling out the old CoC card of "That was old testament, so it doesn't count!" ;-D

However, I do think a little explanation of our theology, or perhaps more particularly our Christology is in order here...

Having recently read Pope Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth (which is a great meditation on Christ through scripture, by the way!), I'm reminded of his repeated emphasis on the fact that Jesus came to show us the Face of God. If we look all through the Old Testament, when the prophets talked to God, we never see His Face. There may be bright light or such things...but we never see His Face. He commands people not to make images of Him...and why? Because, although they don't know it, an image of Him already exists in Christ, and no other ikon will do!

So, in the New Testament we have The Ikon come to us, we are priviledged to be shown the Face of God in Christ! We also see the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, and in the form of Tongues of Fire. God begins to reveal Himself to us in more visible ways in the New Testament...and so while the command not to create any idols to worship still stands, God has now shown us His Face through Christ, and since we believe the insistence on not "imaging" God was because The Image already existed but had not yet been revealed, we don't see acknowledging The Image, the Face of God that was shown to us and remembering Him through ikons and statues and such as wrong. In fact, we see it as honoring God and acknowledging that His Son has shown to us the Face of God, Thanks be to God!

So...I don't know if that helps, but this is our understanding.

QuoteI do wonder if God would apply "any likeness of what is in heaven above" to Himself, since He is in heaven?  Also, it seems that setting up an image or sacred stone, representing not only God/Jesus, but also past saints, especially Mary and bowing before it... seems precariously close to what is being addressed in Leviticus 26.  I'm sure you can understand that concern.

Certainly, but as my last post asks, how far do we take this? If we take it to mean "You can't make any images of anything in Heaven or on Earth" period, that means we can't even paint pictures of nature or make statues of historical figures!

If, however, He means you can't make any images in Heaven or on Earth in order to worship them, which fits right in witht he context there, it makes sense, and Catholics would maintain we don't worship any image of any created thing.

QuoteOn another note, do you think it's possible that some Catholics fail to make the mental distinction you make and place just a little too much devotion to the image itself?  We hear stories of images of Jesus or Mary appearing in different places (anything from how the light reflects on a certain surface at a particular time of day... to the pattern that has mysteriously shown up on a piece of toasted bread or a cinnamon roll).  Some people tend to want to make a shrine out of these things.

Certainly this is true, there are all kinds of silly things people flock to...but all the Catholics I've known in person and online would roll their eyes when someone says they found the Virgin Mary in their morning toast. So of course, in action I can't say that there are no Catholics who go too far (and of course Catholics and Protestants will likely disagree on what "too far" is to begin with)...but my point is that the Church does not teach Catholics it is ok to worship statues.

QuoteYou can make semantical distinctions between "icons" and "idols" and say you're not worshiping the image but only the God the image represents (or... worshiping the God of the person the image represents, as the case may be).  But, at the end of the day, people gathering around, bowing down, and offering prayers in front of a statue... "looks" just a little too similar to the type of thing being addressed in the scriptures above.  That's the bottom line for those of us who object to these things.

And that's why I say, I can certainly understand that...but I think a lot of it has to do with a misunderstanding of "Catholic body language." There were many things I misunderstood before becoming Catholic, and I realize now I was assuming intent that was not there at all, and...honestly I just thought Catholics were pretty stupid in general for doing that kind of thing.   I mean...isn't it obvious that they're worshipping idols?? Hello?? Yeah...I really had a lot of pride to swallow when I converted and a lot of forgiveness to ask for in judging people's hearts that way...

QuoteBy the way, I was raised with a fairly extensive application of this.  Many in the churches I was raised in would even object to extensive use of crosses or even pictures of things in the stained glass of church buildings.  I've even heard arguments against church steeples.  That explains why you might find some churches to be rather plain and non-ornate.

Yep, me too!

QuoteThis was apparently what the "Iconoclasts" were reacting to as well.  So, concerns over this didn't start with the post-Lutheran Protestants.  There were objections to the use of images in worship in the first millennium of Christianity.

Oh of course, it's something that the Church dealt with long ago! It's certainly not new.  

Quote from: trifecta on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 20:55:44

Quote from: DCR on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 09:36:02
(Rather than split the discussion, it was easier just to rename it to include the statue/icon issue...)

Okay, but the Pope and icons have little in common.  The Orthodox Church has icons but no Pope or statues.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 15:08:26

Quote from: trifecta on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 02:36:36

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 17:26:26
Isn't Ikon the Greek word for Idol?  Is this a question of when is an idol not an idol?

No.  The ikon is the Greek word for image.   We have always used images in helping us worship (e.g., the Ark of the Covenant.)  This is really for another thread.

Sorry, just basing my definition on its usage through the NT.  Most of which is in Revelation.

You guys are just looking at the negative use of the word "image."  What about?

   Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." (Gen 1:26).

    A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; (1 Cor 11: 6-8)

And, how about
   
   The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see  the  light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:4).

So, the word ikon (icon) also describes Jesus, man, and the Trinity. 

Quote from: kensington on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 19:24:29
Exodus 20:4 (NASB):
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.


This could actually read... "You shall not make for yourself an idol or any visual aid of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

This a problem of pulling verses out of context of the Bible and the church.  John of Damascus answered this objection in the 9th century (or there abouts).   Admittedly, if you look just at that verse, it is a good argument.  But, when God instructed to build the Ark of the Covenant.  He instructed that images of angels be carved on it (heavenly images) and things like flowers and trees (earthly images).  (Exodus 25)

Under this strict definition, a painting of flowers or trees would be an idol.  Do you have these in your homes?  Taken in context of the OT, the images aren't the problems.  It is the worship of images.

So some of you say, the bowing before such images is worship.  In the OT, the problem
God has with idols is they are false gods.  Those people were worshipping the idols because they thought they were gods.

Just as a painting of Sunflowers makes us appreciate the beauty of God's creation, icons remind us of the beauty of the people portrayed.

Quote
So what's the difference?  Is it like one is a painting and the other is a statue, or what?

Statues are three-dimensional; icons are paintings.  Icons, by the way, are purposely distorted as they represent both the physical and spiritual aspects of the people depicted. 

Quote from: DCR on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 09:28:49

By the way, I was raised with a fairly extensive application of this.  Many in the churches I was raised in would even object to extensive use of crosses or even pictures of things in the stained glass of church buildings.  I've even heard arguments against church steeples.  That explains why you might find some churches to be rather plain and non-ornate.

I understand this tendency (I was a Protestant for many years), but I see this and it makes me sad that some churches feel that any physical beauty is a bad thing.  God is beautiful and Romans 1 even talks about how God's beauty is revealed in nature.

Quote

This was apparently what the "Iconoclasts" were reacting to as well.  So, concerns over this didn't start with the post-Lutheran Protestants.  There were objections to the use of images in worship in the first millennium of Christianity.

And the Iconoclasts were condemned by the church.  The 7th Ecumenical Council not only approves of worship with icons, but encourages it.  After this council, the Iconoclasts struck back, but were defeated. 

Well said, Trifecta! This is what I was trying to explain above.

Stephanie, you really need to start thinking about going into the teaching profession.  Well done!

Quote from: trifecta on Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 20:55:44
You guys are just looking at the negative use of the word "image."  What about?

   Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." (Gen 1:26).

    A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; (1 Cor 11: 6-8)

And, how about
   
   The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see  the  light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:4).

So, the word ikon (icon) also describes Jesus, man, and the Trinity.

No, I brought that up.  I called myself an idolator because I worship "the Ikon of the Invisible God."  (Colossians)  I was condemned all around for not really being an idolator (how does that make sense?).  According to you though, I'm not an idolator, I'm an imagotor.  I think.  I still think an image is basically the same as an idol. 

Quote
So some of you say, the bowing before such images is worship.  In the OT, the problem
God has with idols is they are false gods.  Those people were worshipping the idols because they thought they were gods.

Just as a painting of Sunflowers makes us appreciate the beauty of God's creation, icons remind us of the beauty of the people portrayed.

Are you suuuuure?  It doesn't actually saaaay that.  I mean, that requires interpretation, and if we allow that to happen, well, who's to say what we'll allow next by reinterpreting things.  I think I'd rather burn the Mona Lisa.   

Quote

Quote
So what's the difference?  Is it like one is a painting and the other is a statue, or what?

Statues are three-dimensional; icons are paintings.  Icons, by the way, are purposely distorted as they represent both the physical and spiritual aspects of the people depicted.

So if Jesus is the image of the invisible God, that would mean that He's a representation of God with less dimensions than the O.G.?  That sort of follows logically.

Jarrod   

Quote from: broach972 on Thu May 01, 2008 - 13:49:03
Stephanie, you really need to start thinking about going into the teaching profession.  Well done!

Mm...I dunno, I stick to writing for a reason!  (I'm not a very good speaker!!)

mellevar. you are mistaken about my not being familiar with "catholic body language"  I am quite familiar with it.  I eat with and pray with Catholics at least once a week. ALL of my husband's family on both his mothers and his dad's sides are Catholic.

All of their kids attend Catholic schools...  They talk Catholicism...  They explain the Catholic stuff to anyone who comes along.

I've been around it my whole life, attending mass,  talking to Catholics, reading the Catechism, the Catholic encyclopedia, listening to the prayers, watching the Mary worship... 

Just because someone is not Catholic, do not mean they don't know what "body language" is.  Worship is body language. It's an attitude of the heart reflected in your body language. Such as "Bowing" ... "kneeling'... Praying... lying prostrate"

So, don't tell me that I don't know body language when I see it.  "On your knees, hands folded in prayer, on the ground, in front of a statue"... that is idol worship body language.  Deny it all you want.

And you keep repeating yourself... over and over again.  You say that is not what you are doing. But, maybe it's just you. The 150 Catholics I am related to seem to know what they are doing to.  And I must admit, I respect my SIL way more than more Catholics, she is honest to the bone about her worship Mary... and praying to her, and all that.

And lets not forget, my husband was a Catholic for 22 years before finding the truth in the gospel of Salvation through Christ without all of that other baggage that is attached in the name of Religion.  He knows full well when he sees "statue" worship.

You call them visual aids... But, God says it's an evil generation who needs that.  And God commanded you were not to have visual aids for worship.

It is curious though, what purpose does a "visual aid" of the Pope serve?  And if bowing to it in prayer is not worship.... Then why would you need a visual aid of the Pope who is not part of the God head....  it's all so contradicting and the excuses are not supported by the actions.  For what purpose would someone hang on to a statue while praying or kiss it.  What about the "laying a rose at the feet of the statue of Mary" during the Wedding Mass when two people get married?  You know, the one where the Bride and groom do that, and then stand at the stature and pray together for Mary to bless them with children?

And do not try to tell me that is not the case...  I've been to some VERY Catholic Weddings, full Mass and conducted by Bishops ....  I know exactly how that bit of Mary worship goes. I've asked many a bride, and even the priest the purpose in that "tradition". 

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 15:44:38
mellevar. you are mistaken about my not being familiar with "catholic body language"  I am quite familiar with it.  I eat with and pray with Catholics at least once a week. ALL of my husband's family on both his mothers and his dad's sides are Catholic.

All of their kids attend Catholic schools...  They talk Catholicism...  They explain the Catholic stuff to anyone who comes along.

I've been around it my whole life, attending mass,  talking to Catholics, reading the Catechism, the Catholic encyclopedia, listening to the prayers, watching the Mary worship... 

Just because someone is not Catholic, do not mean they don't know what "body language" is.  Worship is body language. It's an attitude of the heart reflected in your body language. Such as "Bowing" ... "kneeling'... Praying... lying prostrate"

So, don't tell me that I don't know body language when I see it.  "On your knees, hands folded in prayer, on the ground, in front of a statue"... that is idol worship body language.  Deny it all you want.

Well for me and all the Catholics I know it is simply prayer body language, it has nothing to do with the statue itself or recognizing it as a deity.   

QuoteAnd you keep repeating yourself... over and over again.  You say that is not what you are doing. But, maybe it's just you. The 150 Catholics I am related to seem to know what they are doing to.  And I must admit, I respect my SIL way more than more Catholics, she is honest to the bone about her worship Mary... and praying to her, and all that.

You speak often of this SIL who admits she worships Mary...I would love to talk to her and hear that from her own mouth. 

And if I did, you can be sure I'd be pulling out my bible and catechism and showing her she is in error and the Church specifically teaches against worshipping anyone but God. 

QuoteAnd lets not forget, my husband was a Catholic for 22 years before finding the truth in the gospel of Salvation through Christ without all of that other baggage that is attached in the name of Religion.  He knows full well when he sees "statue" worship.

You call them visual aids... But, God says it's an evil generation who needs that.  And God commanded you were not to have visual aids for worship.

I never saw that command, just the one not to worship idols.

QuoteIt is curious though, what purpose does a "visual aid" of the Pope serve?

He is our Papa, it's like having a picture of a family member on the wall.  Why do you need pictures of family members?

QuoteAnd if bowing to it in prayer is not worship.... Then why would you need a visual aid of the Pope who is not part of the God head....  it's all so contradicting and the excuses are not supported by the actions.  For what purpose would someone hang on to a statue while praying or kiss it. 

I've never seen hanging onto a statue and kissing it, personally...but again, God knows their hearts, it's not for me to judge.

QuoteWhat about the "laying a rose at the feet of the statue of Mary" during the Wedding Mass when two people get married?  You know, the one where the Bride and groom do that, and then stand at the stature and pray together for Mary to bless them with children?

Jesus is our Brother and Mary is our Mother...ever seen someone place a rose on the seat where a deceased family member would have sat at a wedding or graduation? It's honoring her in a similar way, and sure, we ask for her to pray for our marriage in a special way, to pray that God blesses us.  It's not worship.

QuoteAnd do not try to tell me that is not the case...  I've been to some VERY Catholic Weddings, full Mass and conducted by Bishops ....  I know exactly how that bit of Mary worship goes. I've asked many a bride, and even the priest the purpose in that "tradition".

And did they tell you, "Yeah, that's the bit where we worship Mary." 

If not, I'm not sure why someone wouldn't take them at their word. 

If so (and they weren't joking), they are indeed engaging in idolatry, and they're wrong.

You speak often of this SIL who admits she worships Mary...I would love to talk to her and hear that from her own mouth.  Smile

You can love to all you want.  If you don't believe me, that is fine. But, I would not introduce you... I want to see her get saved, not get to be a better Catholic!  I'll stick it out with her, teaching her, praying with her, discipling her, thank you.

I never saw that command, just the one not to worship idols.

Umm.... you have NEVER seen the part of the Ten Commandments that says not to make "any likeness" of anything that is on earth or in Heaven or even in the sea? 

Here... try this... Exodus 20:4...  Glad I could help.

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:20:35
I never saw that command, just the one not to worship idols.

Umm.... you have NEVER seen the part of the Ten Commandments that says not to make "any likeness" of anything that is on earth or in Heaven or even in the sea? 

Here... try this... Exodus 20:4...  Glad I could help.

So, am I to assume that you have no pictures or paintings of anykind in your house or on your possession?  You might want to throw them out....Glad I could help.   

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:20:35
I never saw that command, just the one not to worship idols.

Umm.... you have NEVER seen the part of the Ten Commandments that says not to make "any likeness" of anything that is on earth or in Heaven or even in the sea? 

Here... try this... Exodus 20:4...  Glad I could help.

Yeah I thought we'd been around this before...I sure hope you don't have any pics of your family around your house or you're outta luck. 

Quote from: broach972 on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:24:11

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:20:35
I never saw that command, just the one not to worship idols.

Umm.... you have NEVER seen the part of the Ten Commandments that says not to make "any likeness" of anything that is on earth or in Heaven or even in the sea? 

Here... try this... Exodus 20:4...  Glad I could help.

So, am I to assume that you have no pictures or paintings of anykind in your house or on your possession?  You might want to throw them out....Glad I could help.   

NO .... I have NO VISUAL AIDS for worship... I do not.

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:11:26
You speak often of this SIL who admits she worships Mary...I would love to talk to her and hear that from her own mouth.  Smile

You can love to all you want.  If you don't believe me, that is fine. But, I would not introduce you... I want to see her get saved, not get to be a better Catholic!  I'll stick it out with her, teaching her, praying with her, discipling her, thank you.

That's too bad...I hate to hear of uninformed Catholics and not be able to point them to proper Catholic teaching.

The only visual aid needed are the Scriptures. (cf. 2Ti 3:15-17)

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:15:30

Here you go.... someone hanging on to the "Visual aid" while praying

Hmm...I wonder if that's on Good Friday? We do kiss the foot of Jesus on Good Friday, this is true. 

It's a sign of reverence and respect for Christ and thanks for his sacrifice for us.

BUT, we don't think the statue itself is Christ.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:28:37
The only visual aid needed are the Scriptures. (cf. 2Ti 3:15-17)

Wow, I guess people who can't read are just outta luck, then!

What's funny to me is how Catholics are accused of trying to keep people illiterate or not giving them the Bible...when the whole time, bible stories were being told through the stained glass and images that are also being condemned.

Lol, we just can't win.

So, then... you only kiss your statues on Good Friday.

You said you "Kiss Jesus" on Good friday. Then, you must think that Statue is Jesus?  Why Kiss the statue's feet if that is not really Jesus there?

Kissing the image, would be worship.  Of course not to you... but to people in the REAL WORLD... it wold be. And by the Word of God and the commands HE gave to NOT do it.

But, go ahead... break out the next contradiction.  The next ex...   you get the idea.

Quote from: mllevaleur on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:32:25

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:28:37
The only visual aid needed are the Scriptures. (cf. 2Ti 3:15-17)

Wow, I guess people who can't read are just outta luck, then!

What's funny to me is how Catholics are accused of trying to keep people illiterate or not giving them the Bible...when the whole time, bible stories were being told through the stained glass and images that are also being condemned.

Lol, we just can't win.

Preaching the Gospel is a far cry from falling down before statues...

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:37:29
So, then... you only kiss your statues on Good Friday.

You said you "Kiss Jesus" on Good friday. Then, you must think that Statue is Jesus?

Obviously I meant this in a symbolic way, as I made clear that I don't believe the statue itself is Jesus.

QuoteWhy Kiss the statue's feet if that is not really Jesus there?

As a symbol of reverence to Jesus, since Jesus' actual foot isn't here to kiss.

QuoteKissing the image, would be worship.

Nope, that depends on the heart. If I thought the image was a deity and kissed it to signal my worship for it as a deity, yes it would be worship.

QuoteOf course not to you... but to people in the REAL WORLD... it wold be. And by the Word of God and the commands HE gave to NOT do it.

He said not to worship idols, and I don't. 

QuoteBut, go ahead... break out the next contradiction.  The next ex...   you get the idea.

I'm not sure why it matters to you much, really.    We can just agree to disagree, I'm cool with that. 

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:38:00

Quote from: mllevaleur on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:32:25

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:28:37
The only visual aid needed are the Scriptures. (cf. 2Ti 3:15-17)

Wow, I guess people who can't read are just outta luck, then!

What's funny to me is how Catholics are accused of trying to keep people illiterate or not giving them the Bible...when the whole time, bible stories were being told through the stained glass and images that are also being condemned.

Lol, we just can't win.

Preaching the Gospel is a far cry from falling down before statues...

You know...before I became Catholic, because of hyperbolic speech such as this, I had some strange ideas of what went on in a mass.

And now that I live my life as a Catholic, these statements just make me giggle, because as much as non-Catholics seem caught up on statues and bowing and whatnot, my eyes as a Catholic are simply on Christ, and I am so blessed to go to mass (where there's no falling down in front of statues that I've ever seen  ) and receive Him, and simply and quietly kneel in His Presence. 

I've got to go get my chores done, have a nice day! 

This may have already been asked/answered, but I sure don't want to read 21 pages to find out.

Would the 'no visual aids' camp include crosses in that category? 

Quote from: kmv on Thu May 01, 2008 - 17:32:13Would the 'no visual aids' camp include crosses in that category? 

In some cases, yes.

I think I specifically mentioned in a post back there somewhere that I have known people who shied away from using and displaying crosses.  It was thought that the cross itself could become an idol.

Quote from: DCR on Thu May 01, 2008 - 17:52:19

Quote from: kmv on Thu May 01, 2008 - 17:32:13Would the 'no visual aids' camp include crosses in that category? 

In some cases, yes.

I think I specifically mentioned in a post back there somewhere that I have known people who shied away from using and displaying crosses.  It was thought that the cross itself could become an idol.

I know many people who do not wear crucifixes or crosses for just that reason.  They feel it reduces the cross to a good luck charm.