Have all arguments for IM only worship

kanham · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 11:39:28

Cliftyman,

We go way back my brother, but when you respond to certain posters (keep in mind it is just typed word so I certainly could read into emotions that do not exist) you seem frustrated and on edge. I can be wrong and I only comment because I think that it takes away at times from legitimate points that you make.

Cliftyman · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 11:46:07

I'll work on becoming a better communicator through my typing... if it makes you feel any better I'm really chilled out right now, never been better or less frustrated... I just wanted to see if my refutes to these arguments were valid.

Jimbob · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 11:51:16

QuoteThese are the arguments for IM only worship that I know of...

1. The New Testament doesn't allow Instrumental Music - Col 3:17 seems to indicate it would be acceptable, Psalms mentioned in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 were played with instrumental music (many times denoting the melody and the instrument played with), since IM wasn't part of the old law it is not cancelled by Col 2:14 (nailing the law to the cross). This is maintained on the law of silence mainly... that you must have strict written permission to do anything in a worship service, yet the worship service is an \"iffy\" concept in the bible, and this is almost impossible to adhere to completely... (actually it is impossible to adhere to completely due to so many modern worship service traditions and expedients not being specifically mentioned in the bible). Is there a command in the bible that we can only worship the way things are written specifically in the New Testament?

From my pov (and that's all it is) both sides have no leg to stand on by quoting Col. 3 or Eph. 5. The non-IM folks say its silence is prohibitive (silence, imho, is just that in these verses—silence) and the IM folks using the "psallo

zoonance · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 11:57:10

Maybe I am wrong, but IM is really only divisive if we try to force it on either side. It is not devisive amongst most congregations because it isn't even an issue. The liberty to use them or not does not appear to be divisive, the lack of a recognition that that liberty might exist seems to be.

Cliftyman · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 12:04:06

Thanks for taking the time to critique these jmg! I'll ponder all your replies!

James Rondon · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 12:11:46

QuotePrepare to be banned. :D

Been there, done that.

Cliftyman · Mon Nov 21, 2005 - 14:56:15

Here is my revised list.... yall please if you aren't interested in seeing this anymore I'll quit posting it. As long as theres interest in it I'll continue, but if no one wants to critique the arguments (the way jmg did) I'll just let it go on down the pipe... I'm just doing this for my own interest and I realize it may be a little long winded for some.

1. The New Testament doesn't authorize Instrumental Music - Col 3:17, 1 Cor 10:31 seems to indicate we should use our gifts for God, The \"psalms\" mentioned in Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 were played with instrumental music during David's time. (Many translations list the melody and instruments used with various Psalms), since IM wasn't part of the old law it is not cancelled (see argument #2). Authorization is most likely maintained on the \"law of silence\"...meaning that you must have strict written permission to do anything in a worship service. Is this \"law of silence\" a sound method of intrepretation? Please read through all these points before pondering this argument's refutation.

2. The Old Law was nailed to the cross - (Rom 3:28, Rom 7:6, Col 2:14), yet instrumental music was never part of the old law. It was commanded by God for David to have it in the temple. However there are several instances of it not even being used in the temple.. 1 Samuel 16:23, 2 Samuel 6:5, 1 Samuel 10:5, Genesis 31:27 (not a religious use but an instance of it being used secularly). Since it was never part of the Mosaic Law its hard to say it has passed away or was nailed to the cross. It could be argued since the temple is no longer here we do not need it only if it were only used in the temple. We have two clear instances of it being used for Godly things outside of the temple in the passages in Samuel mentioned above. Has God changed his mind regarding IM in the new covenant that Christ has instated. Since it was without a doubt practiced outside of the temple for Godly things it should be considered righteous unless something forbade it to us in the new covenant. There is no command forbidding it in the new covenant. It is currently forbidden using the \"law of silence\" (we have other examples and it isn't mentioned, so it is forbidden). Is the law of silence a biblical principle. Does God tell us we should interpret the bible this way. Could this be considered \"adding\" to the words of God?

3. Instrumental Music was only used in the temple - IM was used outside of the temple (see Samuel and Genesis passages above), David used it for good uses. Also if Col 3:17 and 1 Cor 10:31 is any indicator if we have a talent we should use it for the glory of God. Some would argue not all talents can be used for God.... however why would you want to hide any of your talents and not come up with a way they could be used for God? (see the parable of the talents - Matthew 25) Some would argue that we cannot possibly offer everything to God... I would disagree... (Romans 12:1). Simply saying we \"can't offer everything to God\" is insufficient to prove instrumental music is unacceptable to God. It must be proven by the bible that IM is either unauthorized or sinful (see argument #1)

4. Instrumental Music is inherently evil - IM was used by the heathens to worship their pagan Gods... however the invention of IM was amoral. Jubal was the first to use IM noted in the bible (Genesis 4:21, note the KJV says \"organ\" which may be a little misleading)... both good and bad people used it in the Old Testament. Obviously it can be used for good. Jesus told us that external things don't defile us... things that come out of our heart defile us. Instruments are not inherently evil. (Matthew 15:16-20).

5. Instrumental Music is divisive - IM can be divisive and should never be used where it can be harmful (1 Cor 8)... but if it can be helpful, can provide healing, can provide praise... it should be used if there are people that have the talents to implement it. (Col 3:17, 1 Cor 10:31) but it shouldn't be divisive. Some would argue that it is divisive any time it is incorporated among those who believe its wrong. Should anyone make a test of fellowship out of an unsupported principle of judgement? Does the bible ever say we can disfellowship or cease fellowship over instrumental music (1 Cor 5, Matthew 18). The bible only says we can do these things over matters of sin or false teaching. Instrumental Music is not a matter of teaching and \"false\" in the bible refers to those who would knowingly teach something wrong. Can we prove playing instruments to God is sinful?

6. The definition of the word \"psallo\" found in James 5:13, Eph 5:19, 1 Cor 14:15 and Romans 15:9 means to \"sing\" - Volumes have been written on this. Some have surmised that \"psallo\" means making melodies on instruments, some have surmised that it means singing, some have surmised it could mean both. Without a doubt forms of the word \"psallo\" appear in the Septuagint referring to both vocal and instrumental music. In the New Testament (specifically Revelation 5:8-9) it could be intrepreted that words for singing are applied to the music of the harp. (or were the heavenly beings just holding their harps for props?) Without a doubt \"psallo\" was applied to both instrumental music and vocal music, if you accept the Septuagint as legitimate and applicable in understanding the Greek language of the New Testament. However the question should be, even if \"psallo\" means sing, is that a prohibition on us playing IM to God? Can we limit our own talents being offered to God based on silence? (see argument #1 regarding the law of silence and biblical authority)

7. Instruments being played in Rev 14 and Rev 5 were symbolic - We are told the saints will have harps in heaven...once again this wouldn't be a strict prohibition against IM even if they were. Would a sinful symbolic act be shown in heaven? Why is something portrayed literally or symbolic as being in heaven if it is sinful?

8. \"Strange Fire\" offered by Nadab and Abihu - Nadab and Abihu were given a command from God regarding a sacrifice. There are instances of God commanding IM in the Old Testament and David carried out those commands from God. Those commandments were regarding the temple worship and anyone who says the temple worship is abolished, fulfilled would be correct. The question is \"Does God command us how to conduct worship services in the New Testament?\" The only reason we would not conclude that IM was acceptable would be due to the law of silence. It was acceptable to David and the Prophets before God instated it by command in the temple, it is acceptable in heaven... symbolically or figuratively... The only reason that it would not be acceptable would be due to the law of silence, and I maintain that the law of silence is a concept that is extra-biblical.

9. The hypocritical conscience argument -this in no way proves the correctness of IM. Here is an example of this... if you believe silence doesn't allow you to use IM, because you have an example of singing... if that were the case though you wouldn't be able to greet with a handshake only a kiss, because the only form of greeting mentioned in the New Testament is the holy kiss, over 4 times! This definitely isn't a refute of any argument. Its simply something I hope can make people be more honest with themselves. So in short... how can you be consistent with \"silence arguments\", you would have to literally do everything in the bible to be true to your own measure of judgement.

10. The Early Church didn't use it - are we sure? Have harps, lyres, etc. ever been found in the homes where the Church met up to the third century? We know that followers of God before Christ used it. Is the supposition that people from an earlier time period didn't use it, a worthy exhortation for us not to use it anyway? 3rd Century Christians didn't use PA Systems to spread the gospel to stadiums full of 60,000 people, does that mean we shouldn't? Its very hard to fully understand the musical landscape of the 1st century. It was a time that Greeks were formulating new musical theory and instruments, they probably wouldn't adopt Hebrew systems and instruments... also there probably just weren't that many musicians, especially compared with today. The early Church probably didn't use it.... but once again thats no prohibition from God that we can't use it.

11. We shouldn't put on a show in our worship assembly - We should never be false. God is much more displeased with how our hearts and lives are being lived before we even come into the assembly though (read Amos, where God hates the Israelittes music because they don't serve him when their not singing). I've been in the prescence of heartfelt instrumental praise though. This is a matter of the heart. Also we need to remember King David was very elaborate in his instrumental praise... to the point that Michal despised him... yet we know by the words of Samuel that God was pleased with his outpouring.

spurly · Sat May 24, 2008 - 19:07:25

Clifty, this list along with your other list (see the instrumental manifesto thread) lets me know you have really thought this issue through.

s1n4m1n · Tue Aug 05, 2008 - 21:08:48

This isn't directly related to any of Clifty' refutations but, there is prophetical argument for the use of instruments from Psalm 98:

1 Sing to the LORD a new song,
for he has done marvelous things;
his right hand and his holy arm
have worked salvation for him.

2 The LORD has made his salvation known
and revealed his righteousness to the nations.

3 He has remembered his love
and his faithfulness to the house of Israel;
all the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation of our God.

This has to be Christ's first coming. Notice the response:

4 Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth,
burst into jubilant song with music;

5 make music to the LORD with the harp,
with the harp and the sound of singing,

6 with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn—
shout for joy before the LORD, the King.

7 Let the sea resound, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it.

8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy;

Now notice that his occurs before the following:

9 let them sing before the LORD,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.

Cliftyman · Wed Aug 06, 2008 - 09:09:57

All I have to say is wow! I can't beleive this thread is still having posts after 2 years!

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