Christian Forums

If the Bible is the Inspired word of God then surely He has been watching over His word as it has been translated over the centuries into different languages, and made sure that what is written enables us to work out what He is saying to us about how we are to live our lives. If we have to study in trememdous depth, like you have, to find out everything about how we are to live, we could  be doing everything wrong unless we are able to do this.
My feelings are that God would never have made things this complicated for the normal everyday Christian.
If we read the Bible and have to spend months and even years studying just to find out if what is said about one thing (such as divorce) is really what is said about divorce, then we could all be living in error about so many things in the Bible.
I listen to some teaching by a very well known and respected Bible teacher called Derek Prince, who is English, speaks Hebrew, has a very good knowledge of greek and lived in Isreal for many years and has a good back ground of Jewish history, but after all of his studying he still comes back to what the Bible actually says on this. ie Christians are told not to divorce unless it is for sexual immorality, and only then can they remarry, and that a believer who is left by a non believer can remarry.So with all of his knowledge, he returns to what the Bible actually says on this issue.
He himself married a divorced lady whose previous husband was unfaithful.he admits that there are some grey areas such as someone who was divorced before they bacame a Christian and then he suggests going to your church leader and asking him to pray with you to seek God on this matter and do what he leads you to do.

God tells us to come to him as little children, so surely that means that His teaching manual would be fairly simple for all to understand and not only to those like you who have spent so long studying this one subject.

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Sep 11, 2008 - 21:29:59
If the Bible is the Inspired word of God then surely He has been watching over His word as it has been translated over the centuries into different languages, and made sure that what is written enables us to work out what He is saying to us about how we are to live our lives. If we have to study in trememdous depth, like you have, to find out everything about how we are to live, we could  be doing everything wrong unless we are able to do this.
My feelings are that God would never have made things this complicated for the normal everyday Christian.
If we read the Bible and have to spend months and even years studying just to find out if what is said about one thing (such as divorce) is really what is said about divorce, then we could all be living in error about so many things in the Bible.
I listen to some teaching by a very well known and respected Bible teacher called Derek Prince, who is English, speaks Hebrew, has a very good knowledge of greek and lived in Isreal for many years and has a good back ground of Jewish history, but after all of his studying he still comes back to what the Bible actually says on this. ie Christians are told not to divorce unless it is for sexual immorality, and only then can they remarry, and that a believer who is left by a non believer can remarry.So with all of his knowledge, he returns to what the Bible actually says on this issue.
He himself married a divorced lady whose previous husband was unfaithful.he admits that there are some grey areas such as someone who was divorced before they bacame a Christian and then he suggests going to your church leader and asking him to pray with you to seek God on this matter and do what he leads you to do.

God tells us to come to him as little children, so surely that means that His teaching manual would be fairly simple for all to understand and not only to those like you who have spent so long studying this one subject.

We are doing it all wrong.. its been plain to me for the last 40 years.  In spite of how good a preacher is or how good a book is or how plainly things might seem in the scriptures, I always come away with a feeling in my stomach that we are listening to the twisted words of the devil rather then the scriptures.

The scriptures are not meant to stand on their own.. they were meant to be shepherded by the church throughout the centuries to retain their original meaning and context.

I do not believe for one moment that God is watching over his scriptures, especially when it comes to translations.. because the scriptures were not meant to be in the hands of individual christians.

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 08:54:24

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Sep 11, 2008 - 21:29:59
If the Bible is the Inspired word of God then surely He has been watching over His word as it has been translated over the centuries into different languages, and made sure that what is written enables us to work out what He is saying to us about how we are to live our lives. If we have to study in trememdous depth, like you have, to find out everything about how we are to live, we could  be doing everything wrong unless we are able to do this.
My feelings are that God would never have made things this complicated for the normal everyday Christian.
If we read the Bible and have to spend months and even years studying just to find out if what is said about one thing (such as divorce) is really what is said about divorce, then we could all be living in error about so many things in the Bible.
I listen to some teaching by a very well known and respected Bible teacher called Derek Prince, who is English, speaks Hebrew, has a very good knowledge of greek and lived in Isreal for many years and has a good back ground of Jewish history, but after all of his studying he still comes back to what the Bible actually says on this. ie Christians are told not to divorce unless it is for sexual immorality, and only then can they remarry, and that a believer who is left by a non believer can remarry.So with all of his knowledge, he returns to what the Bible actually says on this issue.
He himself married a divorced lady whose previous husband was unfaithful.he admits that there are some grey areas such as someone who was divorced before they bacame a Christian and then he suggests going to your church leader and asking him to pray with you to seek God on this matter and do what he leads you to do.

God tells us to come to him as little children, so surely that means that His teaching manual would be fairly simple for all to understand and not only to those like you who have spent so long studying this one subject.

We are doing it all wrong.. its been plain to me for the last 40 years.  In spite of how good a preacher is or how good a book is or how plainly things might seem in the scriptures, I always come away with a feeling in my stomach that we are listening to the twisted words of the devil rather then the scriptures.

The scriptures are not meant to stand on their own.. they were meant to be shepherded by the church throughout the centuries to retain their original meaning and context.

I do not believe for one moment that God is watching over his scriptures, especially when it comes to translations.. because the scriptures were not meant to be in the hands of individual christians.

So if you are correct, we cant believe anything of what we read in the Bible and what most teachers teach?Many of ppauls letters etc were writted to gentile converts who would have known practically nothing of jewish history and Paul knew this, so why did he still teach these things about marriage divorce and remarriage  to them. knowing that they wouldnt understand them in 'context'
I am sorry, but I cant go along with this theory that ther Bible doesnt mean what it actually says because we dont knw in what context it was written. We have common sense and we need to use it I think.
If we believe that The Bible is the infallible inspired word of God, then maybe we have to stop trying to read more into it than is there?
he still teach these things

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 09:59:15

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 08:54:24

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Sep 11, 2008 - 21:29:59
If the Bible is the Inspired word of God then surely He has been watching over His word as it has been translated over the centuries into different languages, and made sure that what is written enables us to work out what He is saying to us about how we are to live our lives. If we have to study in trememdous depth, like you have, to find out everything about how we are to live, we could  be doing everything wrong unless we are able to do this.
My feelings are that God would never have made things this complicated for the normal everyday Christian.
If we read the Bible and have to spend months and even years studying just to find out if what is said about one thing (such as divorce) is really what is said about divorce, then we could all be living in error about so many things in the Bible.
I listen to some teaching by a very well known and respected Bible teacher called Derek Prince, who is English, speaks Hebrew, has a very good knowledge of greek and lived in Isreal for many years and has a good back ground of Jewish history, but after all of his studying he still comes back to what the Bible actually says on this. ie Christians are told not to divorce unless it is for sexual immorality, and only then can they remarry, and that a believer who is left by a non believer can remarry.So with all of his knowledge, he returns to what the Bible actually says on this issue.
He himself married a divorced lady whose previous husband was unfaithful.he admits that there are some grey areas such as someone who was divorced before they bacame a Christian and then he suggests going to your church leader and asking him to pray with you to seek God on this matter and do what he leads you to do.

God tells us to come to him as little children, so surely that means that His teaching manual would be fairly simple for all to understand and not only to those like you who have spent so long studying this one subject.

We are doing it all wrong.. its been plain to me for the last 40 years.  In spite of how good a preacher is or how good a book is or how plainly things might seem in the scriptures, I always come away with a feeling in my stomach that we are listening to the twisted words of the devil rather then the scriptures.

The scriptures are not meant to stand on their own.. they were meant to be shepherded by the church throughout the centuries to retain their original meaning and context.

I do not believe for one moment that God is watching over his scriptures, especially when it comes to translations.. because the scriptures were not meant to be in the hands of individual christians.

So if you are correct, we cant believe anything of what we read in the Bible and what most teachers teach?Many of ppauls letters etc were writted to gentile converts who would have known practically nothing of jewish history and Paul knew this, so why did he still teach these things about marriage divorce and remarriage  to them. knowing that they wouldnt understand them in 'context'
I am sorry, but I cant go along with this theory that ther Bible doesnt mean what it actually says because we dont knw in what context it was written. We have common sense and we need to use it I think.
If we believe that The Bible is the infallible inspired word of God, then maybe we have to stop trying to read more into it than is there?
he still teach these things

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Sep 11, 2008 - 21:29:59
If the Bible is the Inspired word of God then surely He has been watching over His word as it has been translated over the centuries into different languages, and made sure that what is written enables us to work out what He is saying to us about how we are to live our lives. If we have to study in trememdous depth, like you have, to find out everything about how we are to live, we could  be doing everything wrong unless we are able to do this.

Proverbs repeatedly encourages one to seek knowledge and wisdom. And the Word repeatedly commends meditation upon the Word of God; meditation means to chew, to ruminate over, to tear apart and injest like a cow chewing its cudd.  

Of course, life, relationship with God and our fellow man is relatively simple; if we simply love God and love our neighbor as ourselves then we'll be fulfilled and will fulfill the desires of God for our lives.  But that does not make ignorance a premium, nor does it mean that we should NOT devote ourselves to a serious indepth (not simplistic cursory "plain") study of the Word.  

Please don't misunderstand me; I affirm the divine ideal for marriage - the monogomous faithful life-long loving covenant relationship of a man and woman establishing a family.  We should do all we can to support marriages and help couples have lasting loving relationships.  And I believe a correct doctrine of MDR will help Christians have such.  Sadly, the traditional doctrine of MDR is errant in many ways.  Marriage is not indissoluble but is breakable and should be treated as such.  Marriage is not under ecclesial authority, but is primarily a domestic affair under limited civil authority.  Marriage is not a sacrament but is a covenant; and marriage is not a divine covenant, but is a human covenant.  And covenants are only as strong as the character of the covenantors.  Jesus did not intend to repudiate the bill of divorce; rather, He affirmed the bill of divorce explaining the reason Moses was inspired to legislate it.  Remarriage of divorce'es is not sinful; in fact, Paul specifically writes that if a divorce' remarries he does not sin.  

Quote
My feelings are that God would never have made things this complicated for the normal everyday Christian.

God doesn't make things complicated and difficult for us; rather, sin makes things complicated and difficult for us.  Jesus said that if we are his disciples that we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free; we experience this progressively as we grow in Christ as individuals and as a community of faith together.  Not only that, but God does give us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip the "normal" Christian in the things of God.  Teachers dig deep into the Word and communicate doctrine in a way that takes what is complicated and makes it simple.  Theology is often defined as "Faith seeking Understanding."

Quote
If we read the Bible and have to spend months and even years studying just to find out if what is said about one thing (such as divorce) is really what is said about divorce, then we could all be living in error about so many things in the Bible.

Actually, the basic principles are simple, love God and eachother being faithful to and servants of God and oneanother.  If we do that, divorce would be greatly minimized.  Other elements of attaining a biblical doctrine of marriage do take some study though.

Quote
I listen to some teaching by a very well known and respected Bible teacher called Derek Prince, who is English, speaks Hebrew, has a very good knowledge of greek and lived in Isreal for many years and has a good back ground of Jewish history, but after all of his studying he still comes back to what the Bible actually says on this. ie Christians are told not to divorce unless it is for sexual immorality, and only then can they remarry, and that a believer who is left by a non believer can remarry.So with all of his knowledge, he returns to what the Bible actually says on this issue.

He himself married a divorced lady whose previous husband was unfaithful.he admits that there are some grey areas such as someone who was divorced before they bacame a Christian and then he suggests going to your church leader and asking him to pray with you to seek God on this matter and do what he leads you to do.

I respect highly Derek Prince, though I've only read a little of what he's written.  But even so, I don't hold his doctrine as inerrant and follow him, or any other, blindly.  Rather, in my studies on MDR, I've read the writings of many ministers from the Church Fathers to contemporary.  One of the things I found most fascinating was that the basic principles that I've come to believe concerning MDR were also taught by the Puritans.  One of the core elements of their doctrine on MDR was that marriage is not a sacrament or under ecclesial authority, but marriage is a covenanant under civil authority.  But of course, finding this tood a little study.

Quote
God tells us to come to him as little children, so surely that means that His teaching manual would be fairly simple for all to understand and not only to those like you who have spent so long studying this one subject.

Faith is very simplistic by nature and transcends logic and reason.  One aspect of faith is trust and faith often calls us to step out and obey the leading of the Lord even when we don't understand.  But doctrine and theology are not simple.  In fact, a good definition of theology is "Faith Seeking Understanding."  Ignorance is not a premium in the kingdom of God!  

"A wise man will hear and increase learning,  and a man of understanding will attain wise counsel." (Prov. 1:5)

Prov. 2:1-5
1 My son, if you receive my words,
     And treasure my commands within you,
      2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
     And apply your heart to understanding;
      3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
     And lift up your voice for understanding,
      4 If you seek her as silver,
     And search for her as for hidden treasures;
      5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
     And find the knowledge of God.

Faith and relationship with God is simple, understanding God and his word is like search for a hidden treasure - takes work, diligence, perservence, tools, and faith.

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 08:54:24
We are doing it all wrong.. its been plain to me for the last 40 years.  In spite of how good a preacher is or how good a book is or how plainly things might seem in the scriptures, I always come away with a feeling in my stomach that we are listening to the twisted words of the devil rather then the scriptures.

The scriptures are not meant to stand on their own.. they were meant to be shepherded by the church throughout the centuries to retain their original meaning and context.

I do not believe for one moment that God is watching over his scriptures, especially when it comes to translations.. because the scriptures were not meant to be in the hands of individual christians.

Tantor, it's not either/or (either personal relationship or tradition/community) rather we need to recognize that it's both/and.  We need to have a personal relationship with God and study scripture for ourselves; and we need to respect and value the greater community of faith, past and present! 

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 09:59:15
So if you are correct, we cant believe anything of what we read in the Bible and what most teachers teach?Many of ppauls letters etc were writted to gentile converts who would have known practically nothing of jewish history and Paul knew this, so why did he still teach these things about marriage divorce and remarriage  to them. knowing that they wouldnt understand them in 'context'
I am sorry, but I cant go along with this theory that ther Bible doesnt mean what it actually says because we dont knw in what context it was written. We have common sense and we need to use it I think.
If we believe that The Bible is the infallible inspired word of God, then maybe we have to stop trying to read more into it than is there?
he still teach these things

But Paul sent these letters to church leaders that he had already taught and indoctrinated into his teachings and therefore would understand the context and culture of Paul's writings.  None of Paul's writings were just sent out to the unwashed masses expecting them to automatically pick things up.

The bible cannot be understood logically or looked at as a cryptographic document like a 'divinci code'... the bible is meaningless without the context of a living and thriving christian community that is actively seeking it's original meanings.

As Stanley Hauerwas would say, our basic education and world view that we are indoctrinated with by our school systems make it very difficult for any of us to interpret the bible... he even goes as far as to say that the west should remove the bible from individuals hands and place them back in the custody of the church, where it belongs.

I tend to agree with him.. we are all too dumb to discern its meanings individually.

Quote from: Sherman Nobles on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 10:21:50

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 08:54:24
We are doing it all wrong.. its been plain to me for the last 40 years.  In spite of how good a preacher is or how good a book is or how plainly things might seem in the scriptures, I always come away with a feeling in my stomach that we are listening to the twisted words of the devil rather then the scriptures.

The scriptures are not meant to stand on their own.. they were meant to be shepherded by the church throughout the centuries to retain their original meaning and context.

I do not believe for one moment that God is watching over his scriptures, especially when it comes to translations.. because the scriptures were not meant to be in the hands of individual christians.

Tantor, it's not either/or (either personal relationship or tradition/community) rather we need to recognize that it's both/and.  We need to have a personal relationship with God and study scripture for ourselves; and we need to respect and value the greater community of faith, past and present! 

I do not believe the new age 'personal relationship' mantra that is present to today's evangelical christian
mainstream.  To believe you can have a personal relationship with Jesus is to believe that Jesus lied!... there is a reason he sent the Holy Spirit to look after us in his absence.  And you cannot confuse the 3 persons in the God head... Jesus is currently unavailable to us.

I realize that you wrote the following in reply to Tantor's post, but I wanted to point out a couple of things.

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 09:59:15
Many of pauls letters etc were writted to gentile converts who would have known practically nothing of jewish history and Paul knew this, so why did he still teach these things about marriage divorce and remarriage  to them. knowing that they wouldnt understand them in 'context'

Quote

Our problem is that not only do we not understand the Jewish Context, but we don't even understand the Greco-Roman Context.  1 Cor. 7 is an interesting passage though, Paul actually quotes Jesus (speaking to the Jews) and interprets/applies it to the Greco-Roman context of Corinth.  But of course, a cursory simplistic overview of that chapter would never pick that up.

Not only that, but did you know that in the Greco-Roman context of Corinth the Gentiles actually had 5 significantly different types of marriage relationships, the most common of which was "tenting together" which was the only type available to slaves.  And of course, 75% of the people of Corinth were slaves and thus could only "tent together".   But working through how Paul's words would apply to a slave who's "marriage(s)" was subject to it's master requires us thinking, really studying the passage and not just taking a simplistic, "plain" approach.

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 10:27:45

Quote from: Sherman Nobles on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 10:21:50

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 08:54:24
We are doing it all wrong.. its been plain to me for the last 40 years.  In spite of how good a preacher is or how good a book is or how plainly things might seem in the scriptures, I always come away with a feeling in my stomach that we are listening to the twisted words of the devil rather then the scriptures.

The scriptures are not meant to stand on their own.. they were meant to be shepherded by the church throughout the centuries to retain their original meaning and context.

I do not believe for one moment that God is watching over his scriptures, especially when it comes to translations.. because the scriptures were not meant to be in the hands of individual christians.

Tantor, it's not either/or (either personal relationship or tradition/community) rather we need to recognize that it's both/and.  We need to have a personal relationship with God and study scripture for ourselves; and we need to respect and value the greater community of faith, past and present! 

I do not believe the new age 'personal relationship' mantra that is present to today's evangelical christian
mainstream.  To believe you can have a personal relationship with Jesus is to believe that Jesus lied!... there is a reason he sent the Holy Spirit to look after us in his absence.  And you cannot confuse the 3 persons in the God head... Jesus is currently unavailable to us.

But of course, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, so to speak of having a personal relationship with Jesus is simply a modern way of speaking of having a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.   Not only that, but to completely divide God into three seperate entities/beings is to deny the Oneness of God.  We serve One God, not three gods.  When one relates to the Holy Spirit, one is relating to Jesus and God the Father. 

I hope you're not trying to say that you don't believe a personal can have a relationship with God through being born of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit.

We cannot have the relationship we want until after the final judgment.  Until then we have to satisfy ourselves with a faint example that Jesus has afforded us.

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 10:49:55
We cannot have the relationship we want until after the final judgment.  Until then we have to satisfy ourselves with a faint example that Jesus has afforded us.

Hmm, didn't Jesus tell Nicodemous that "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again (born from above), you cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Quote from: Sherman Nobles on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 11:40:41

Quote from: Tantor on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 10:49:55
We cannot have the relationship we want until after the final judgment.  Until then we have to satisfy ourselves with a faint example that Jesus has afforded us.

Hmm, didn't Jesus tell Nicodemous that "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again (born from above), you cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Quote from: Bonnie on Thu Sep 11, 2008 - 17:03:18

God gave us commands on His will for us and marriage.  We should stop expecting this life to be all it can be and realize we are here as pilgrims and strangers with a great calling from on high.  Everything else takes a back seat to it.

God Bless

    I hear you, Bonnie.  Here are a few other thoughts on divorce & remarriage.   In Matthew 19:9, Jesus gives one cause for divorce and remarriage, unfaithfulness or adultery. There's some question whether "adultery" in this passage refers to a sexual act with another person or the actual breaking of the marriage vow—or both. I am not discussing this phase of the subject at this time. Rather, I wish to lay before you the idea that God makes allowances in cases of necessity and mercy.

    Permit me to make the application to a case involving marriage, divorce, and remarriage. A husband comes home late at night, intoxicated, and demands sex of his wife of 20 years. When she refuses, he physically abuses and rapes her. Out of concern for their four children, she endures his drinking problem and abuses. For 20 long years she puts up with him while trying to make a good home for the family.

    Finally, she cannot take his abuses any longer. She leaves him, taking the kids with her. She refuses to return. And he refuses to seek help for his problems—and continues to drink as heavily as before. When the wife sees that no change in his behavior is forthcoming, she divorces him. No adultery has been committed. Out of necessity she divorces her husband. Under the circumstances, she has no other choice. In time, she marries another man who cares for and loves her.

    Will not God's mercy override this woman's plight?  Out of necessity she divorces her husband.  If God made allowances for David and his men when they were famished, if he made allowances for the Jews when, out of mercy, they pulled an ox out of the ditch on their Sabbath, thus violating the Sabbath, will he not make allowances for those caught up in tumultuous martial relationships?  After all, He is a merciful God!

—Buff.

Quote from: Reformer on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 15:15:27
    I hear you, Bonnie.  Here are a few other thoughts on divorce & remarriage.   In Matthew 19:9, Jesus gives one cause for divorce and remarriage, unfaithfulness or adultery. There's some question whether "adultery" in this passage refers to a sexual act with another person or the actual breaking of the marriage vow—or both. I am not discussing this phase of the subject at this time. Rather, I wish to lay before you the idea that God makes allowances in cases of necessity and mercy.

    Permit me to make the application to a case involving marriage, divorce, and remarriage. A husband comes home late at night, intoxicated, and demands sex of his wife of 20 years. When she refuses, he physically abuses and rapes her. Out of concern for their four children, she endures his drinking problem and abuses. For 20 long years she puts up with him while trying to make a good home for the family.

    Finally, she cannot take his abuses any longer. She leaves him, taking the kids with her. She refuses to return. And he refuses to seek help for his problems—and continues to drink as heavily as before. When the wife sees that no change in his behavior is forthcoming, she divorces him. No adultery has been committed. Out of necessity she divorces her husband. Under the circumstances, she has no other choice. In time, she marries another man who cares for and loves her.

    Will not God's mercy override this woman's plight?  Out of necessity she divorces her husband.  If God made allowances for David and his men when they were famished, if he made allowances for the Jews when, out of mercy, they pulled an ox out of the ditch on their Sabbath, thus violating the Sabbath, will he not make allowances for those caught up in tumultuous martial relationships?  After all, He is a merciful God!

—Buff.

  and how many Christian women have been destroyed from the inside out (heart, spirit soul) and/or maimed or murdered because another Christian or someone from the church told them they would be sinning if they tried to help themselves by separating from the abuser and the broken marriage.  Marriages do not become broken only after a divorce- they have already been broken by one or both spouses before the papers of divorce are sought.

One of the primary keys to healthy relationships is the individuals having strong personal boundaries.  Sadly, the church for centuries has focused it's attention on being anti-divorce and anti-remarriage, instead of being pro-marriage.  By being anti-divorce, the church has not enabled people, especially women, to have strong personal boundaries; instead they've been taught to, in effect, allow abuse and thus enable the abusers. 

To have a healthy relationship, couples must be enabled to hold eachother accountable for their attitudes and actions towards one another.  They must be enabled to draw a line and say "No more.  You cannot continue to have a relationship with me if you ....." 

Surely if a man repeatedly rapes his wife that is sexual immorality?That is a Biblical reason for divorce anyway.
I dont think many would suggest that someone shouldnt seperate from their spouse if they are truly abusive and they are in danger,.however maybe seperating from someone is a different issue from divorcing and remarrying?

Also maybe we need to remeber that abuse, emotional abuse especially, is also carried out by women as well as men. (I am female by the way). I have know women who are controlling, manipulative and extreemly bossy, and then they wonder why their husband withdraws emotionally and gets frustrated with them. A controlling and manipulative person is very hard to live with whether they are male or female.

Another point is that there a a few people, and I know one of them, who have played the emotional abuse card to get rid of their spouse, especially if they have met someone else and have no other reason as a Christian to divorce their spouse. True emotional abuse in its worst form is terrible, but that word can be misused  with little reason to convince themselves that they can divorce someone for their own selfish reasons. The reason given in the case I know of was that their spouse didnt meet their 'emotional needs'. (no one person can ever meet all of our emotional needs anyway, only God can do that).The person they divorced hasnt got an abusive bone in his body, and I should know, because I am the  lucky person who very very happliy married to him.
 

Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

Goodness knows, you had better ask God!
Mind you, I wouldnt want to be the person that you married!

Quote from: Reformer on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 15:15:27

Quote from: Bonnie on Thu Sep 11, 2008 - 17:03:18

God gave us commands on His will for us and marriage.  We should stop expecting this life to be all it can be and realize we are here as pilgrims and strangers with a great calling from on high.  Everything else takes a back seat to it.

God Bless

    I hear you, Bonnie.  Here are a few other thoughts on divorce & remarriage.   In Matthew 19:9, Jesus gives one cause for divorce and remarriage, unfaithfulness or adultery. There's some question whether "adultery" in this passage refers to a sexual act with another person or the actual breaking of the marriage vow—or both. I am not discussing this phase of the subject at this time. Rather, I wish to lay before you the idea that God makes allowances in cases of necessity and mercy.

    Permit me to make the application to a case involving marriage, divorce, and remarriage. A husband comes home late at night, intoxicated, and demands sex of his wife of 20 years. When she refuses, he physically abuses and rapes her. Out of concern for their four children, she endures his drinking problem and abuses. For 20 long years she puts up with him while trying to make a good home for the family.

    Finally, she cannot take his abuses any longer. She leaves him, taking the kids with her. She refuses to return. And he refuses to seek help for his problems—and continues to drink as heavily as before. When the wife sees that no change in his behavior is forthcoming, she divorces him. No adultery has been committed. Out of necessity she divorces her husband. Under the circumstances, she has no other choice. In time, she marries another man who cares for and loves her.

    Will not God's mercy override this woman's plight?  Out of necessity she divorces her husband.  If God made allowances for David and his men when they were famished, if he made allowances for the Jews when, out of mercy, they pulled an ox out of the ditch on their Sabbath, thus violating the Sabbath, will he not make allowances for those caught up in tumultuous martial relationships?  After all, He is a merciful God!

—Buff.

Buff, this is a sad case and my heart goes out to any woman or man who suffers from physical or verbal abuse.  I would say get away before something worse comes along or you are killed.

I don't like to get involved in a what if case and make judgments.  I think a woman like this needs the counsel of her Pastor.  If they're not Christians the Word of God doesn't apply to them anyway for they are carnal minded and not subject to His commands.

Blessings

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:16:56
Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

You're talking about willfil sin and the trampling underfoot of the blood of Christ.  A serious matter.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:30:49

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:16:56
Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

You're talking about willfil sin and the trampling underfoot of the blood of Christ.  A serious matter.

Yes, yes.

But can you remarry?

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:39:27

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:30:49

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:16:56
Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

You're talking about willfil sin and the trampling underfoot of the blood of Christ.  A serious matter.

Yes, yes.

But can you remarry?

I'm not sure you are still a Christian at that point.
Why be concerned about remarrying?

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:16:56
Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

Mind you the question doesnt really apply as the one who shot their husband would be in jail , probaly for life, so would be highly umlikely to remrry.

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:16:56
Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

Do you thnk God would really want you to marry again, when you have murderd one husband already?
If you are a Christian, its highly unlikey that you would shoot anyone anyway, and if you arent, the Bible teachings dont apply to you as such.

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 18:18:10

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 17:16:56
Let me ask this again, if you shoot your husband in the back with a shotgun, can you remarry?

Do you thnk God would really want you to marry again, when you have murderd one husband already?
If you are a Christian, its highly unlikey that you would shoot anyone anyway, and if you arent, the Bible teachings dont apply to you as such.

Choosenone (are you Obama )  any way you said
Mind you the question doesnt really apply as the one who shot their husband would be in jail , probaly for life, so would be highly umlikely to remrry.

Not true.  Mass murders get marriage offers all the time and marry while in jail.

Are we placing  a "Yoke on your neck that neither your are your fathers were able to bear"?

I've personally known God fearing Christian people who will actually admit that they actually believe that if someone cheats on a spouse and repents they can not marry but if someone murders a spouse and repents they can marry because their spouse is dead.  There are folks who believe this.  Is there anyone hear that believes that?

Quote from: Johnb on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 18:24:00
Choosenone (are you Obama )  any way you said
Mind you the question doesnt really apply as the one who shot their husband would be in jail , probaly for life, so would be highly umlikely to remrry.

Not true.  Mass murders get marriage offers all the time and marry while in jail.

Are we placing  a "Yoke on your neck that neither your are your fathers were able to bear"?

Dont know anything much about Obama.I'm not even American and I dont live there.

yes, thats weird that many women in particular want to marry murderers who are in prison.Why do they do that?

Not sure if we are talking about a Christian who has murdered their spouse, but if not then none of this applies anyway and if we are I cant see why God would find another husband for someone who has murdered their first one!

Quote from: Serenity432001 on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 18:27:19
I've personally known God fearing Christian people who will actually admit that they actually believe that if someone cheats on a spouse and repents they can not marry but if someone murders a spouse and repents they can marry because their spouse is dead.  There are folks who believe this.  Is there anyone hear that believes that?

I think that murdering someone is surely more serious that cheating on them, although they are both terrible things to do.

Bonnie while we are pointing out "clear text".  What about "suffer not a woman to teach or preach.."

Now think about the logic of your position.  Under the law (that had to be kept perfectly for one to be justified)  God allowed divorce. But under the law of grace where the blood of Christ flows both backward and forward; one gets a divorce for other than adultery or murder they will be without hope??  Does not fit anything I know about Jesus!

Quote from: Johnb on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 18:35:55
Bonnie while we are pointing out "clear text".  What about "suffer not a woman to teach or preach.."

Now think about the logic of your position.  Under the law (that had to be kept perfectly for one to be justified)  God allowed divorce. But under the law of grace where the blood of Christ flows both backward and forward; one gets a divorce for other than adultery or murder they will be without hope??  Does not fit anything I know about Jesus!

Are you asking two questions 

yes.

Quote from: Johnb on Fri Sep 12, 2008 - 18:35:55
Bonnie while we are pointing out "clear text".  What about "suffer not a woman to teach or preach.."

Now think about the logic of your position.  Under the law (that had to be kept perfectly for one to be justified)  God allowed divorce. But under the law of grace where the blood of Christ flows both backward and forward; one gets a divorce for other than adultery or murder they will be without hope??  Does not fit anything I know about Jesus!

A woman isn't suppose to take the authority over a man, such as Pastor.  Is that what you want to know?

No one could keep the law.  That's why they sacrificed yearly.  God gave man what he wanted because of the hardness of his heart; but He never intended it to be so.

He still does that today.

Bonnie
My point is that if you are going to take a legalistic literal view of all scripture it has to be consistant.  I am a former CoC preacher.  I can remember having to either have a woman bus driver or a man teaching the children on the bus.  This was because if a man was driving and a woman was teaching she was usurping his authority.  What you do on this board would clearly be teaching to men therefore under the literal view you would be usurping authority.  (Not my view but that of the conservative CoC)

I agree that God's wants one man and one woman together for life  (by the way I have been married to the same woman for 40 years)  However it is also God's will that we not sin and that we be obedient.  However, we know that we will sin and not be obedient in all things.  We have the grace of God and the blood of Christ that covers our short commings and sin.  The view that you and others posting here make divorce and remarriage unforgivale sin.