Christian Forums

Quote from: s1n4m1n on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 08:41:16
So which is it, requires too much or not enough?

Not taking a position here, one way or another.  Simply that Catholicism is not as laid-back as Snargles might believe.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 08:47:04

Quote from: s1n4m1n on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 08:41:16
So which is it, requires too much or not enough?

Not taking a position here, one way or another.  Simply that Catholicism is not as laid-back as Snargles might believe.

Being a good Catholic might take a lot of work but it seems awful easy to just go through the motions and show up on Easter and Christmas. Either way your survivors get to say in your obit that you were a member at St Bingo.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 07:30:38

Quote from: CDHealy on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 05:07:21
It's called the priesthood of all believers, which is alive and well in Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Which is not the same as a particular man occupying the priesthood as a church office.

Yeah.  So?  Not everyone is an elder is he?  Not everyone is a deacon is he?  We all have our own gifts.  But we all exercise our priesthood according to our gifts.  Some have the gift (charism) of presbyter/priest, some of episkopos/bishop, some of deacon/diakonos, and so on.  Some of us have the gift of lay ministry.  We are all priests in our own way.

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 09:03:05Being a good Catholic might take a lot of work but it seems awful easy to just go through the motions and show up on Easter and Christmas. Either way your survivors get to say in your obit that you were a member at St Bingo.

A good Catholic (whether Roman or Orthodox) never just "goes through the motions" or only "shows upon Easter and Christmas."  Those who do that would be BAD Catholics.

Quote from: CDHealy on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:08:20

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 09:03:05Being a good Catholic might take a lot of work but it seems awful easy to just go through the motions and show up on Easter and Christmas. Either way your survivors get to say in your obit that you were a member at St Bingo.

A good Catholic (whether Roman or Orthodox) never just "goes through the motions" or only "shows upon Easter and Christmas."  Those who do that would be BAD Catholics.

That was my point. Steve said being Catholic is burdensome and complicated. From Cathlolic friends I have observed a few work hard at following the teachings of the church (the good Catholics) but many think just having their names on the roll is enough without being active participants in the church (the bad Catholics).

Hey CD, here is a quote from The Church of Christ by Everett Ferguson on Christian worship:

Quoteall the ancient cultic language, permeated with the language of sacrifice, was in early Christian usage "spiritualized" and shifted to the horizon of the Christian's moral life. Cultic terminology is used metaphorically in the New Testatment; hence, a cultic or priestly understanding of Christian worship is out of the question.

The Church of Christ, pg 211

Any comments?

Quote from: CDHealy on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:06:48
Some have the gift (charism) of presbyter/priest, some of episkopos/bishop, some of deacon/diakonos, and so on.  Some of us have the gift of lay ministry.  We are all priests in our own way.

I think you missed my point there, Healy.

In the Bible (this is our standard, yes?), the priesthood is an Old Covenant office. He's the guy who interceded for the people and instructed them in how to make their animal sacrifices.  As far as I know, no Christian group does that today, because Jesus was sacrificed for us once for all time.  There is no such thing as a Christian priest.

A presbyter is simply the Greek name for an elder, which in the NT is equivalent to a bishop.  Yes, we all have different talents and interests and we can serve God in various ways that all serve to build up the Body of Christ. 

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:31:39
many think just having their names on the roll is enough without being active participants in the church (the bad Catholics).

Which, in my book, would make you a non-Catholic. 

Where I come from, if you stop showing up for meetings and don't communicate, then eventually we'll stop counting you as a member.  Doesn't mean that you have been disfellowshipped, doesn't mean that we don't love you.  But we're not going to pretend, just so that we can claim huge membership numbers.

Quote from: s1n4m1n on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:55:30
Hey CD, here is a quote from The Church of Christ by Everett Ferguson on Christian worship:

Quoteall the ancient cultic language, permeated with the language of sacrifice, was in early Christian usage "spiritualized" and shifted to the horizon of the Christian's moral life. Cultic terminology is used metaphorically in the New Testatment; hence, a cultic or priestly understanding of Christian worship is out of the question.

The Church of Christ, pg 211

Any comments?

At the risk of contradicting a noted patristics scholar, I think he's off just a bit on the facts.  Christianity's sacrificial metaphor does not have pagan Greek connotations so much as it has Jewish ones.  The letter to the Hebrews anyone?  I also think his Restorationist background is getting the better of him.  How can he on the one hand claim the imagery--albeit relegating it to the moral life--only to then dismiss the imagery?  But in any case, the historical evidence is against him.  Among the two earliest first century and turn-of-the-second century documents that we have (1 Clement and the Ignatian epistles) clearly demonstrate a dependence upon Jewish sacrificial imagery and a literal development of priestly sacrificial sacramentalism.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 19:26:11I think you missed my point there, Healy.

In the Bible (this is our standard, yes?), the priesthood is an Old Covenant office. He's the guy who interceded for the people and instructed them in how to make their animal sacrifices.  As far as I know, no Christian group does that today, because Jesus was sacrificed for us once for all time.  There is no such thing as a Christian priest.

A presbyter is simply the Greek name for an elder, which in the NT is equivalent to a bishop.  Yes, we all have different talents and interests and we can serve God in various ways that all serve to build up the Body of Christ. 

You need to go to linguistics school: presbyter comes into English as priest, and bishop comes into English from episkopos.  The Roman/Orthodox priest is the New Testament presbyter.

And while the New Testament doesn't appear to make clear demarcations between episkopos and presbyteros, it does not logically follow to say they are the same thing.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 19:29:31

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:31:39
many think just having their names on the roll is enough without being active participants in the church (the bad Catholics).

Which, in my book, would make you a non-Catholic. 

Where I come from, if you stop showing up for meetings and don't communicate, then eventually we'll stop counting you as a member.  Doesn't mean that you have been disfellowshipped, doesn't mean that we don't love you.  But we're not going to pretend, just so that we can claim huge membership numbers.

All this says is that you have a different ecclesisology than Catholic Christians.  But who says your ecclesiology is right?

Quote from: CDHealy on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 19:48:30

Quote from: s1n4m1n on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:55:30
Hey CD, here is a quote from The Church of Christ by Everett Ferguson on Christian worship:

Quoteall the ancient cultic language, permeated with the language of sacrifice, was in early Christian usage "spiritualized" and shifted to the horizon of the Christian's moral life. Cultic terminology is used metaphorically in the New Testatment; hence, a cultic or priestly understanding of Christian worship is out of the question.

The Church of Christ, pg 211

Any comments?

At the risk of contradicting a noted patristics scholar, I think he's off just a bit on the facts.  Christianity's sacrificial metaphor does not have pagan Greek connotations so much as it has Jewish ones.  The letter to the Hebrews anyone?  I also think his Restorationist background is getting the better of him.  How can he on the one hand claim the imagery--albeit relegating it to the moral life--only to then dismiss the imagery?  But in any case, the historical evidence is against him.  Among the two earliest first century and turn-of-the-second century documents that we have (1 Clement and the Ignatian epistles) clearly demonstrate a dependence upon Jewish sacrificial imagery and a literal development of priestly sacrificial sacramentalism.

In favor of Dr. Ferguson he does mention in his book the the Jewish OT background at least as much if not more than the Greek pagan background .

ISTM, that to arrive at his conclusion he had to unreasonably interpret the "leitourgeo" of Acts 13:2, saying it refered to prophesying or teaching.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 19:29:31

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:31:39
many think just having their names on the roll is enough without being active participants in the church (the bad Catholics).

Which, in my book, would make you a non-Catholic. 

Where I come from, if you stop showing up for meetings and don't communicate, then eventually we'll stop counting you as a member.  Doesn't mean that you have been disfellowshipped, doesn't mean that we don't love you.  But we're not going to pretend, just so that we can claim huge membership numbers.

Same for where I go but do the Catholics drop you off the membership list if you only show up on Christmas and Easter?

Quote from: CDHealy on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 19:51:14
1- presbyter comes into English as priest, and

2- bishop comes into English from episkopos. 

3- while the New Testament doesn't appear to make clear demarcations between episkopos and presbyteros,

1- In RC or Ortho parlance, perhaps.  But in NT Greek, presby literally means "old", literally synonymous with "elder."

2- Yup.   

3- Yup.     Paul uses the two terms interchangably, indicating that they are one and the same.

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 21:41:48
do the Catholics drop you off the membership list if you only show up on Christmas and Easter?

Nope.     I've been gone for over 30 years, and I'm still on the books.  Just found this out a couple of weeks ago.

I disagree, the history of the RCC is more violent than Islam today. But also is the history of Protestantism. Are you familiar with the so called "witch trials?" how about the ones in Germany and England that claimed 100,000's of deaths.

It is also important to point out that if it wasn't for the Holy Crusaders of Rome, you and I would be worshipping Mohammed. Islam lost only to The Holy League when it sought Western domination.

The defeat sent Islam limping back into the east in disillusionment that Allah has not given them world domination.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 21:44:231- In RC or Ortho parlance, perhaps.  But in NT Greek, presby literally means "old", literally synonymous with "elder."

It's not RC/Ortho parlance.  It's called the development of the English term.  That's a simple linguistic historical fact.  Which you acknowledge for bishop.

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 21:44:233- Yup.     Paul uses the two terms interchangably, indicating that they are one and the same.

I regret to inform you that simply reasserting a claim for which there is no logical basis doesn't make it true.  I at least can acknowledge that the NT appears to use the terms interchangeably, why can't you at least acknowledge the illogical of your leap?

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 21:41:48

Quote from: stevehut on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 19:29:31

Quote from: Snargles on Thu Oct 09, 2008 - 11:31:39
many think just having their names on the roll is enough without being active participants in the church (the bad Catholics).

Which, in my book, would make you a non-Catholic. 

Where I come from, if you stop showing up for meetings and don't communicate, then eventually we'll stop counting you as a member.  Doesn't mean that you have been disfellowshipped, doesn't mean that we don't love you.  But we're not going to pretend, just so that we can claim huge membership numbers.

Same for where I go but do the Catholics drop you off the membership list if you only show up on Christmas and Easter?

No... My husband left the Catholic church in the 80's and his sister informed me a short time back, that "He is still Catholic"... 

LOL.  They are a funny bunch sometimes!  Why do you want to count those who don't want to be part of you, as part?  Makes no sense....  When a religion takes away choice... something is wrong.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 14:28:43No... My husband left the Catholic church in the 80's and his sister informed me a short time back, that "He is still Catholic"... 

LOL.  They are a funny bunch sometimes!  Why do you want to count those who don't want to be part of you, as part?  Makes no sense....  When a religion takes away choice... something is wrong.

It's funny to you, and you cannot understand it because your fundamental starting points are different from what Catholics believe.

It is primarily about the sacramental understanding of baptism (which CoC/independent Cc also have a form of) and what happens in baptism, the work of the Holy Spirit and so on.

You look at being Catholic from the rubric of revivalist salvation beliefs: a soteriology predicated on crisis and a form of voluntarism--but that's like trying to explain theoretical physics with Legos.  But Catholic soteriology (and here, in generalist terms I'm including Roman and Orthodox) sees salvation in terms of synergy, and from the perspective of eternity--not from human free choice alone nor from a one-time life-critical event.

OldFart

You said:


Don't give your guns away son don't give your guns away.




GTM

So CD, do Catholics share the "once saved, always saved" belief with the Calvinists? Do they go so far as to say "once a catholic, always a catholic"?

The Jews in Acts 2:38, the Phillipian jailer and the Ethiopian eunuch all seemed to have free choice and a  one time life critical event.

Quote from: CDHealy on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 15:04:05

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 14:28:43No... My husband left the Catholic church in the 80's and his sister informed me a short time back, that "He is still Catholic"... 

LOL.  They are a funny bunch sometimes!  Why do you want to count those who don't want to be part of you, as part?  Makes no sense....  When a religion takes away choice... something is wrong.

It's funny to you, and you cannot understand it because your fundamental starting points are different from what Catholics believe.

It is primarily about the sacramental understanding of baptism (which CoC/independent Cc also have a form of) and what happens in baptism, the work of the Holy Spirit and so on.

You look at being Catholic from the rubric of revivalist salvation beliefs: a soteriology predicated on crisis and a form of voluntarism--but that's like trying to explain theoretical physics with Legos.  But Catholic soteriology (and here, in generalist terms I'm including Roman and Orthodox) sees salvation in terms of synergy, and from the perspective of eternity--not from human free choice alone nor from a one-time life-critical event.

Actually, it is because Catholics believe that the parents have the right to make that choice for you as an infant and you are bound to it, even when you become an adult and you hear the true gospel and decide for yourself to step out in faith and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside of what your parents did..   Yeah, I think they are often funny... 

They are good Catholics, they do all the "Catholic" things, but I don't see much saved behavior in their lives... I do however see that total commitment to the LORD, His word and His body in my husband. 

What makes it funny for me... Is that my husband knows the Catholic Church, His parents, and all they taught him, and he made the choice to receive Christ as savior and to walk away from a religious system that granted him nothing before the LORD... but chooses to walk out His own faith in Jesus Christ alone.. No Pope, no Saints, no rosary, no statues, no crossing of self,  no ANY OF THAT.. 

And for more than 23 years he has walked that, and yet they still say his is "still Catholic"...  His dog tags say He is not, and if he dies, there will be no priest, no mass, none of it... He walks out his faith in Christ alone.

They "Catholics" use this to validate themselves, they really are not concerned with the man's true faith walk.  For them, it's all about what validates them... just like the things you said.  Peace.

Quote from: Snargles on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 15:14:42
So CD, do Catholics share the "once saved, always saved" belief with the Calvinists? Do they go so far as to say "once a catholic, always a catholic"?

The Jews in Acts 2:38, the Phillipian jailer and the Ethiopian eunuch all seemed to have free choice and a  one time life critical event.

Catholics (both Roman and Orthodox) do *not* believe in once saved, always saved.  However, neither do they believe that salvation can be lost at the drop of the hat (as I was taught growing up in the independent Christian churches).  While Catholics do believe one can lose one's salvation, it is not the case normally that it happens in a moment of time.  (Roman Catholics and Orthodox part company over the matter of Purgatory, which Orthodox do not accept.)

But the matter of the loss of one's salvation cannot ever be truly known by us humans--it is known only to God.  God may, in the mercy by which any one of us are saved, take the final act of repentance done at the moment of one's last breath, and accept the penitent into his bosom.

The matter of whether one is once a Catholic, always a Catholic is bound up in these matters of soteriology.  On one level, it is not true, because Catholics do believe that one can lose one's salvation.  But on another level it is true, because God's mercy is great.

Biblical salvation is not a momentary thing.  Salvation always has three tenses: past, present and future--I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.  Only at the eschaton can anyone of us ever truly claim that we are saved in any final sense.  As St. Paul said to the Christians (Christians, mind you) at Lystra, Iconium and Antioch: "We must through many tribulations enter the Kingdom of God."  Hadn't these Christians already entered the Kingdom of God at their baptism?  Yes, but not finally.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 21:42:45Actually, it is because Catholics believe that the parents have the right to make that choice for you as an infant and you are bound to it, even when you become an adult and you hear the true gospel and decide for yourself to step out in faith and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside of what your parents did..   Yeah, I think they are often funny...

You completely misunderstand both the Catholic and biblical (which is the same thing) understanding of Faith, the biblical teaching on personal choice and how that all relates to salvation.

You assume that simply because infants and children do not have the same analytical capabilities as adults that they do not have faith.  But in fact, Jesus can and does heal and forgive sins on the basis of other people's faith: "And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.'" (Mt 9:2/Mk 2:5)  St John the Baptist leapt in Elizabeth's womb when he heard the greeting of the Mother of the Lord.  Furthermore, faith, according to Scripture, is not about intellectual/analytical abilities or cognitive understandings.  None of us truly understand what it means to be baptized into Christ, not even intellectually. So if we don't fully understand it and yet are saved, how much more then children?

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 21:42:45They are good Catholics, they do all the "Catholic" things, but I don't see much saved behavior in their lives... I do however see that total commitment to the LORD, His word and His body in my husband.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.  I'm glad to hear your husband is exhibiting Christian behaviors, but unless God has given you a special charism to see into people's souls, you have no basis for judging them.  All of us are sinners, and some of us who are least sinful in our exterior behavior are more sinful in our hearts (judging, sinful thoughts, and so on).  Be careful.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 21:42:45What makes it funny for me... Is that my husband knows the Catholic Church, His parents, and all they taught him, and he made the choice to receive Christ as savior and to walk away from a religious system that granted him nothing before the LORD... but chooses to walk out His own faith in Jesus Christ alone.. No Pope, no Saints, no rosary, no statues, no crossing of self,  no ANY OF THAT.. 

Your ignorance of the Catholic Faith (Roman and Orthodox) is evident here.  And, again, you appear to be making judgments that only God can make.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 21:42:45And for more than 23 years he has walked that, and yet they still say his is "still Catholic"...  His dog tags say He is not, and if he dies, there will be no priest, no mass, none of it... He walks out his faith in Christ alone.

None of us "walks out" our faith in Christ alone.  This so blatantly contradicts Scripture that I'm surprised you would utter it.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 10, 2008 - 21:42:45They "Catholics" use this to validate themselves, they really are not concerned with the man's true faith walk.  For them, it's all about what validates them... just like the things you said.  Peace.

Judging again.  I fear for you.

"None of us "walks out" our faith in Christ alone.  This so blatantly contradicts Scripture that I'm surprised you would utter it."

He walks out his faith in "Christ alone".... Who else died for him?    I'm thinking you are the one judging what you do not know.

I think it's very humorous that you say I misunderstand, or that I am making judgments for God... and you turn and do the same thing about what I know and don't know.  Bummer.  I don't think I am ignorant of what I speak, he is my husband.  But, your answers are as common as any Catholic I have met. I'm not surprised.  Anyone who believes the practices are wrong, are ignorant to them in your opinion... But, I am not.  Being related to so many Catholics does lend one to discussions, questions, answers, and seeing the fruit.

Don't fear for me, I'm under the blood of Christ... discussing the fruits of anyone is part of it.  The LORD is good.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 14:35:44He walks out his faith in "Christ alone".... Who else died for him?    I'm thinking you are the one judging what you do not know.

Please read 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, then follow it up with John 17: no one is ever at any time a Christian alone, and none of us ever at any time work out our salvation alone.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 14:35:44I think it's very humorous that you say I misunderstand, or that I am making judgments for God... and you turn and do the same thing about what I know and don't know.  Bummer.

You clearly *are* ignorant: you confuse judging the state of someone's heart and soul (which is what I am accusing you of doing) versus making important judgments regarding whether someone is teaching Christian doctrine or not: you manifestly are *not* teaching Christian doctrine.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 14:35:44I don't think I am ignorant of what I speak, he is my husband.

As well as you know your husband, unless God has given you a special gift, you do not know his heart.  Only God does.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 14:35:44But, your answers are as common as any Catholic I have met. I'm not surprised.  Anyone who believes the practices are wrong, are ignorant to them in your opinion... But, I am not.  Being related to so many Catholics does lend one to discussions, questions, answers, and seeing the fruit.

That you *are* ignorant of Catholic teaching and practice is manifest, since nearly everything you say about Catholic teaching and practice is wrong--a judgmental polemic which is very, very ugly.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 14:35:44Don't fear for me, I'm under the blood of Christ... discussing the fruits of anyone is part of it.  The LORD is good.

You are not simply discussing fruits, you go on to make judgments about the heart, thereby disobeying a clear command of Christ.  This is a very fearful place in which to be.

Please read 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, then follow it up with John 17: no one is ever at any time a Christian alone, and none of us ever at any time work out our salvation alone.

HELLO... this will be the SECOND time I answered you.... His faith is in "Christ ALONE".... He is not alone... His faith for salvation is in Christ alone.  Who else do you put stock for your salvation in?  Christ alone died on the cross for his sins, and mine.  Christ alone rose from the dead, ascended and is seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for him.

"CHRIST ALONE" is his SAVIOR...  I do not know how much more clear I can be for you.  READ IT AGAIN... I guess.

MAYBE... SOMEONE hear can explain it where CD can understand what it means to have "faith in Christ alone"... Thanks.

When we have faith in Christ alone we can speak to him directly and we can go to the inspired word of God to learn more about him and the Father. We don't need the intervention of priests or bishops.

Quote from: Snargles on Sun Oct 12, 2008 - 11:33:37
When we have faith in Christ alone we can speak to him directly and we can go to the inspired word of God to learn more about him and the Father. We don't need the intervention of priests or bishops.

Yep.  And other folks shape us and we shape them like iron and iron.  We don't soak up knowledge from priests and bishops like we were some kind of nefarious....sponge.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 23:39:15HELLO... this will be the SECOND time I answered you.... His faith is in "Christ ALONE".... He is not alone...

You repeatedly said that he "walks out his faith alone."  That does not convey the same meaning as that his faith is in Christ alone.

I'm glad you have corrected yourself and rightly acknowledge the biblical teaching that none of us are alone in our walk of faith.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 23:39:15His faith for salvation is in Christ alone.  Who else do you put stock for your salvation in?  Christ alone died on the cross for his sins, and mine.  Christ alone rose from the dead, ascended and is seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for him.

"CHRIST ALONE" is his SAVIOR...  I do not know how much more clear I can be for you.  READ IT AGAIN... I guess.

I think if you re-read your words, you will see that they did not communicate what you intended.

Quote from: Snargles on Sun Oct 12, 2008 - 11:33:37
When we have faith in Christ alone we can speak to him directly and we can go to the inspired word of God to learn more about him and the Father. We don't need the intervention of priests or bishops.

Once again, if this is your principle, then don't dare ask your fellow Christians for prayers.  After all, you don't need them.  It's just you and Jesus.

Quote from: CDHealy on Sun Oct 12, 2008 - 13:53:21

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 23:39:15HELLO... this will be the SECOND time I answered you.... His faith is in "Christ ALONE".... He is not alone...

You repeatedly said that he "walks out his faith alone."  That does not convey the same meaning as that his faith is in Christ alone.

I'm glad you have corrected yourself and rightly acknowledge the biblical teaching that none of us are alone in our walk of faith.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Oct 11, 2008 - 23:39:15His faith for salvation is in Christ alone.  Who else do you put stock for your salvation in?  Christ alone died on the cross for his sins, and mine.  Christ alone rose from the dead, ascended and is seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for him.

"CHRIST ALONE" is his SAVIOR...  I do not know how much more clear I can be for you.  READ IT AGAIN... I guess.

I think if you re-read your words, you will see that they did not communicate what you intended.

Are you on drugs?  I am tired of your false accusations and your false inuendos.  I did not correct what I said, I corrected your understanding of what I said.

Go back... ONE MORE TIME and read the post from the first one down to this one...  He walks out his faith in Christ alone. "In Christ alone" was in every statement I made.  EVERY ONE.  INCLUDING the first one you misread.  And I included, he walks it without all of the trappings of a false religion that but chooses to walk out His own faith in Jesus Christ alone..  No Pope, no Saints, no rosary, no statues, no crossing of self,  no ANY OF THAT..   His faith is in "Christ Alone"... you misunderstand if you think I corrected my writing at all.  He walks his faith one on one with Christ... his faith in Christ alone.... He puts NO FAITH in a POPE, SAINTS, ROSARY, STATUES, CROSSING OF SELF>>> NONE OF THAT. It's all worthless before the one and only Savior, Jesus Christ.

And we do believe it is one on one.... "Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling"... if you NEED a religious system incorporated by man to be saved... that is sad.  Especially one as false as the Catholic's teach.  And that is the truth.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Oct 12, 2008 - 17:18:21Are you on drugs?

This is a completely uncalled for remark.  Tone it down.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Oct 12, 2008 - 17:18:21His faith is in "Christ Alone"... you misunderstand if you think I corrected my writing at all.  He walks his faith one on one with Christ... his faith in Christ alone....
. . .

And we do believe it is one on one.... "Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling"... if you NEED a religious system incorporated by man to be saved... that is sad.  Especially one as false as the Catholic's teach.  And that is the truth.

So I was right the first time.  You don't believe in the Church (as in 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4).  It's just you and Jesus.  That is not what the New Testament teaches.

Egads.... You are blank as a slate.  Leave me alone CD.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  Not even close.