Christian Forums

Amen, broach. It is the same with us Orthodox.  My parish priest has served in several international locales, concelebrating the Eucharist in various languages.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 11:24:24
1-"Oh, it was only what it looks like,"

2- Pot meet kettle.

1- Yes, that's how it looks. 

2- 

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 11:25:42
1- You apparently have a misunderstanding of the Sacramental theology of the Roman Catholic Church

2- dominical prohibition against judging another's salvation.

1- ?

2- I didn't see anyone judging someone's salvation.  Only that most professing Cath's don't attend Mass regularly.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 11:27:53
1- Christopher Hitchens couldn't convince the Roman Catholic Church that Mother Theresa wasn't a Catholic,

2- Mother Theresa died a Catholic in good standing with the Church, and has been beatified.

1- I have read his book.  The book didn't seek to defend/discredit Catholicism in particular.  Whether she was Catholic or Hindu, was not his concern.  His book sought to discredit religion, period.

2- MT said, on many occasions, that all religions lead to God.  Doesn't this fly in the face of the most fundamental tenets of Catholicism?   

You misunderstand: Christopher Hitchens testified during the proceedings of Mother Theresa's beatification (in the role of the "devil's advocate") to persuade the Roman Catholic Church against her sanctity.

Regarding the "all religions": I can't comment without seeing the actual quote in context.  I'm going to guess that her comment was more along the lines of all religions contain some truth, and all truth is God's truth.  But hey go ahead and post the quote in context and we can look at it.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 16:27:44

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 16:22:48
Well, of course.  But the difference--and this is essential--Catholics may move from one parish to another, but they are not moving from one Church to another.  So you're comparing apples and oranges.

This is one of the things that amazes me about the Catholic Church.  I am registered at one particular church but I can attend any Catholic Church I want.  It doesn't matter if I am in the U.S. or a different continent.

Churches of Christ don't even require that you register - and you can worship at any congregation around the world.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 21:36:24
Christopher Hitchens testified during the proceedings of Mother Theresa's beatification (in the role of the "devil's advocate") to persuade the Roman Catholic Church against her sanctity.

Yes, I know the story.

But he didn't do this because he has a particular issue with Catholicism, or with MT.  He simply believes that all religion is false.  So it's only natural that he would relish an opportunity to discredit miracles.

And I would imagine that such a devoted defender of MT would know the quotes. 

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 11:46:51
But with Orthodox, especially if it is a matter of a Christian from another group seeking to enter the Orthodox Church, the norm is a much slower and more deliberate process.  In fact, in our archdiocese, the policy is that one has to attend Divine Liturgy and receive some form of catechesis by the priest for a year before one is received into the Church. 

This is exactly what I and my church believe in and practice.  Except that it doesn't generally take a year.  Any conversion should be an educated decision.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 05:58:45
Did someone take the verses of Scripture and arrange them in the form that is now the Rosary?  Yes.  But the verses were there all along. 

That doesn't answer my question.

Did the apostles teach Marian devotion in general, or the Rosary in particular?

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 21:51:58And I would imagine that such a devoted defender of MT would know the quotes. 

Right.  The great "you oughta know" dodge.  It's well-used by those unable to defend themselves.  So, we'll just assume you're clueless and spouting internet-generated hooey.  But you're always welcome to demonstrate you know what you're talking about.

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:14:57That doesn't answer my question.

Yes it does.  But you don't like the answer because it denies your question begging.

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:14:57Did the apostles teach Marian devotion in general, or the Rosary in particular?

Since neither the Roman Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Churches teach what I can assume you mean by "Marian devotion," the answer is no, not that.

But in terms of teaching the centrality of Mary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, well, yes, of course they did, as we can see from Matthew and Luke, as well as the earliest Christian witnesses we have.

Now, in terms of "Rosary in particular" I don't have a clue what you mean by that.  But, it is the case that the Our Father, the Haily Mary, and the Gloria Patri are all ancient prayers and widespread.  We also know it is the case that the use of a prayer rope, or beaded string, as an aid to the recitation of psalms and prayers was very early (we already have references to it in the earliest monastic literature, predating the fourth century).  So, yes, the practice of praying these verses with the aid of a prayer rope/rosary was very early.

Now, was this discipline exactly like the fifteen mysteries, the precise number of repetitions of the Our Father and the Hail Mary and so on as we have it to day?  No, of course not.  But the practice of prayers on a prayer rope/rosary has been around since the earliest times.

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:00:49This is exactly what I and my church believe in and practice.  Except that it doesn't generally take a year. 

Not to be too pedantic, but . . . : Then it isn't exactly the same, is it?

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 16:27:44

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 16:22:48
Well, of course.  But the difference--and this is essential--Catholics may move from one parish to another, but they are not moving from one Church to another.  So you're comparing apples and oranges.

This is one of the things that amazes me about the Catholic Church.  I am registered at one particular church but I can attend any Catholic Church I want.  It doesn't matter if I am in the U.S. or a different continent.

Its the same way with Protestants, you can go to any protestant church you want and still be a protestant. So, I don't get the implication.  I can still go to any protestant church and still be a member of the body of Christ... which I came into by being born again, grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I do not have to put my name on a roll call or change any that I am already on. 

So, I think the accusation that CD made was wrong.... We do understand what it means to be a member of the Body of Christ.

Quote from: broach972 on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 16:23:40

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 14:53:44
Well, I am glad and thankful my husband isn't.  He is leading "cradle Catholics" to the true word of God and out of the idolatry to VICTORY in Jesus!

I've thought about it for some time, and if my husband were to Go home to be with the LORD... Pass on...  and I saw ONE rosary, one prayer card, mass card, or novena card at his service, I'd have it removed...  Catholics are good about putting these things in with the person or whatever... I'm not having his family do that to him, not after all he has done to stand OUTSIDE of that idolatrous religion.

Kensington, I have pretty much decided to not to engage you on these matters.  Lord knows I don't have the time or temperament these days.  While Catholic members have become rare on this forum...I think that CD has done a fine job in attempting to explain the Catholic faith, and I am grateful for his input.  It is nice to see some of these boards become active again after the last major blow up.  The Catholic section of this forum reminds me of a battle field and some of those names listed in black have become martyrs I guess.

It is obvious that your animosity and hatred of the Catholic faith runs pretty deep.  Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and if you wish to exist in a constant state of ignorance, then there isn't much I can do about that.  As far as your husband leading "cradle Catholics" astray...well, that is between him and God, and I am sure that he will have to answer for his actions someday.  I will leave it at that.

As always Kensington...it has been a pleasure.

I'm sorry... but how can my husband lead someone astray whom you said was already astray... or CD did...  I don't really care.  My repsonse was to the comment that many "astray" cradle Catholic's had gone astray... so if they are already astray and my husband is leading them to the LORD and His perfect salvation, through grace by faith in Jesus Christ alone... How is he going to have to answer for that, when indeed that is the great commission... going out into the world and making Catholics is NOT the great commission.  Answer for it?  Yes... indeed... I think his rewards will be great in Heaven.  You'd have to know him and have seen him pray for people, give to them of himself and his finances beyond measure and watch him embrace them in love to understand... but I can't wait to see what happens for him in Heaven... He has earned so much in my opinion.  It is going to be exciting to know that everyone he blessed in this life and the knowledge of Christ he gave them just by his actions and his loving them, will be in his crown!!  Amen for that!

As for your calling me ignorant and such...  He says... let it go... the bound need to be set free...  I hold it not against you.  Peace.

CD, two serious questions:

Does the Orthodox church view the patristic writers as inspired by God in the same way that the OT writers, the gospel writers, Paul and Peter were? (I am assuming that you think the OT and NT writers were inspired)

If you had died in the one year period that you were studying the Orthodox faith do you think you would have been found worthy to enter heaven, "saved", in other words? (one year seems like a long time between deciding you want to be in the church and being allowed in)


Even though I think you are wrong in your beliefs I feel like you are being ganged up on by the rest of us. However you seem tough and able to stick up for your wrongly held beliefs (there is a compliment in there)

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:40:25

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:14:57That doesn't answer my question.

Yes it does.  But you don't like the answer because it denies your question begging.

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:14:57Did the apostles teach Marian devotion in general, or the Rosary in particular?

Since neither the Roman Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Churches teach what I can assume you mean by "Marian devotion," the answer is no, not that.

But in terms of teaching the centrality of Mary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, well, yes, of course they did, as we can see from Matthew and Luke, as well as the earliest Christian witnesses we have.

Now, in terms of "Rosary in particular" I don't have a clue what you mean by that.  But, it is the case that the Our Father, the Haily Mary, and the Gloria Patri are all ancient prayers and widespread.  We also know it is the case that the use of a prayer rope, or beaded string, as an aid to the recitation of psalms and prayers was very early (we already have references to it in the earliest monastic literature, predating the fourth century).  So, yes, the practice of praying these verses with the aid of a prayer rope/rosary was very early.

Now, was this discipline exactly like the fifteen mysteries, the precise number of repetitions of the Our Father and the Hail Mary and so on as we have it to day?  No, of course not.  But the practice of prayers on a prayer rope/rosary has been around since the earliest times.

Paul clearly and emphatically states he has fully preached "the gospel of Christ" with nary a mention of Mary. Now if the Apostle Paul deems her not worth mentioning in the full preaching of the gospel, what makes you think she is central to it?

Rom 15:19....I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

And not a mention of the mother of God "so-called" anywhere....

The problem really is that both the Papal and the Orthodox 'gospel' begin with the book of Matthew and end with the book of John, at the expense of all the other books of the Bible.....

CRP

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 16:27:10

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 14:53:44. . . . that idolatrous religion.

You will answer to God for such blasphemy, calling demonic what  is the work of the Holy Spirit, as will we all for any careless word.

This is a false accusation, I rebuke this lie in the NAME OF JESUS who died for me. Who's blood covering keeps people from speaking curses on me and provides for my every need!  

No weapon formed against me shall prosper, but everyone who speaks against me shall be put down by the LORD my God, the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL... there is NONE like Him.  Though ten thousand fall to my right, and to my left, He will uphold me.  He is my ROCK, My shield, my source and my Champion.  Jesus Christ alone has died for me...  Graven images are defiled before Him, and the silver and gold of great sanctuaries are nothing before Him!  The sin of Religions is as rotten meat in the nostrils of a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS SAVIOR.  Your false accusation is a lie before the THRONE of GOD ALMIGHTY... JESUS CHRIST... THE KING OF KINGS!!

The Might Warrior, Jesus Christ alone is my source, His name is HOLY... And He is my vindication.  

The practice of Catholicism has idolatry in it up and down and inside of it  ... and that makes it an idolatrous religion... there is NO PROOF that God ordained any of that junk.  But, men who are with error took what was ordained by the word of GOD and twisted it into the religion it is today... filled with idolatry, lies, false salvation, and many other things that aren't even in the bible...  I rebuke your false claim, and the attempt to put the sin of blasphemy on me for knowing it, and saying so.  

I always love a challenge, Healy.

Q: Do you believe if they die believing in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven?
A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith, surely they will be saved.
Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right?
A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation.
(from an interview with a Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathman-du, Nepal, with "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. 11/23/84

"If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What God is in your mind you must accept" (from Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work, by Desmond Doig, p. 156).

"I love all religions. ... If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there." [On another occasion, she again demonstrated her false gospel that 'there are many ways to God': "All is God -- Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, etc., all have access to the same God."] (12/4/89, Time magazine, pp. 11,13)

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men -- simply better -- we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life -- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."  (In her book, Life in the Spirit: Reflections, Meditations, and Prayers, "Mother")

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She replied candidly, 'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'" (reported in Christian News)

"I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic" (A Simple Path, by L. Barnes):

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:47:14Its the same way with Protestants, you can go to any protestant church you want and still be a protestant. So, I don't get the implication.  I can still go to any protestant church and still be a member of the body of Christ... which I came into by being born again, grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I do not have to put my name on a roll call or change any that I am already on.

Actually, no, you can't.  You could not be an on-fire-Holy-Ghost-fired-up charismatic and "do your thing" in any Restoration Movement Church I know of.  You couldn't become a Presbyterian and insist on Tim LaHaye style eschatology.  You can't go into an a capella cofC and break out your praise band.

Furthermore, your belief that the Body of Christ is disembodied (i.e., the local body doesn't matter, you're part of the "spiritual" Body), is entirely antithetical to the New Testament's teaching on a body that has historical connections to the Apostles and is catholic (in the NT sense).

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:47:14So, I think the accusation that CD made was wrong.... We do understand what it means to be a member of the Body of Christ.

If by Body of Christ you mean what the New Testament teaches, it's clear you don't understand it based on your words above.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:40:25
Now, in terms of "Rosary in particular" I don't have a clue what you mean by that. 

I mean the practice of praying the "Rosary"prayer with the aid of beads.

Did the apostles teach that?

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:13:26

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:47:14Its the same way with Protestants, you can go to any protestant church you want and still be a protestant. So, I don't get the implication.  I can still go to any protestant church and still be a member of the body of Christ... which I came into by being born again, grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I do not have to put my name on a roll call or change any that I am already on.

Actually, no, you can't.  You could not be an on-fire-Holy-Ghost-fired-up charismatic and "do your thing" in any Restoration Movement Church I know of.  You couldn't become a Presbyterian and insist on Tim LaHaye style eschatology.  You can't go into an a capella cofC and break out your praise band.

Furthermore, your belief that the Body of Christ is disembodied (i.e., the local body doesn't matter, you're part of the "spiritual" Body), is entirely antithetical to the New Testament's teaching on a body that has historical connections to the Apostles and is catholic (in the NT sense).

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:47:14So, I think the accusation that CD made was wrong.... We do understand what it means to be a member of the Body of Christ.

If by Body of Christ you mean what the New Testament teaches, it's clear you don't understand it based on your words above.

I can attend or go to any of those protestant churches you have mentioned, oh yes I can.  I have, I have been to many of them.  They don't come up and ask you at the door what you believe or if you speak in tongues or like worship with music before giving you a seat and you attending any service...  

The Body of Christ?  Those saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone....   I do understand that.  Jesus made it so clear that anyone could understand it, and believe it.  There really is no membership roll for it, unless you mean... "The Lambs Book of Life"...  which only Jesus Christ alone is worthy to open.  

Anything else.. is man made.

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:18:23

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:40:25
Now, in terms of "Rosary in particular" I don't have a clue what you mean by that. 

I mean the practice of praying the "Rosary"prayer with the aid of beads.

Did the apostles teach that?

No they did not, and CD said that the prayers were in the Bible and they just put them together to make the rosary... that is false.  The "Hail Mary" is not in the bible.. they took some things that Mary said and that was said by others, and put them together to make a prayer to Mary which became the Hail Mary....   Please don't skip that as you move through this study.

Quote from: Snargles on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:53:45
CD, two serious questions:

Does the Orthodox church view the patristic writers as inspired by God in the same way that the OT writers, the gospel writers, Paul and Peter were? (I am assuming that you think the OT and NT writers were inspired)

No.  (We have an inexact proverb: 100% of the Church Fathers are 85% Orthodox.  That is to say, we can always quibble with something some Church Father said sometime. The key is the discernment of the Church over time.)

Quote from: Snargles on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:53:45If you had died in the one year period that you were studying the Orthodox faith do you think you would have been found worthy to enter heaven, "saved", in other words? (one year seems like a long time between deciding you want to be in the church and being allowed in)

Actually, depending upon when you start the stopwatch, it either took me five years (from my first resolute determination) or seven years (from my first serious encounter) to become Orthodox.  That wasn't the policy thing, it was just how it worked for me.  In some ways, I could see how maybe another year or two of continued catechesis (or, more specifically, worship and living) would have done me some good.  But it is what it is.

The question, however, is, meaning no disrespect, nonsensical to me, and to most Orthodox.  Well, not really nonsensical, because I do have an inkling as to where you're coming from, but it is to say I don't have the same understanding of salvation as you do.  Salvation is, quite literally, an eternal process.  It starts here, but it continues here, and, if we continue, it continues in heaven.

If you mean, was I a Christian?  Yes, I believe I was.  We Orthodox may, and do, hold that the Orthodox Church is the only Church, but we also hold that what Christ says in John 3 is true: the Spirit blows where he will, he is not bound by the limits of men.  And especially because God is merciful and because of human sin and schism, we believe that there are Christians outside the limits of the Church.

Now as to whether I was "worthy" then (or am I now) to enter heaven.  Hell no.  I will never ever be worthy, no matter how virtuous is my life, no matter how many miracles I do (if I do any), and no matter how many souls I win.  The only way I'm getting in to heaven is because God is merciful and I trust in that mercy.

Quote from: Snargles on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:53:45Even though I think you are wrong in your beliefs I feel like you are being ganged up on by the rest of us. However you seem tough and able to stick up for your wrongly held beliefs (there is a compliment in there)

I'll have to take your word for it.

Quote from: Circuitridingpreacher on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:58:14Paul clearly and emphatically states he has fully preached "the gospel of Christ" with nary a mention of Mary. Now if the Apostle Paul deems her not worth mentioning in the full preaching of the gospel, what makes you think she is central to it?

Rom 15:19....I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

And not a mention of the mother of God "so-called" anywhere....

And on what basis do you think the New Testament contains all the words St. Paul ever spoke or wrote on the matter?

The New Testament doesn't mention a lot of things.  So what.  Silence doesn't prove anything.  It's, well, gosh, silent.

Quote from: Circuitridingpreacher on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 22:58:14The problem really is that both the Papal and the Orthodox 'gospel' begin with the book of Matthew and end with the book of John, at the expense of all the other books of the Bible.....

Yeah, cuz we just thought all those commentaries by John Chrysostom, or by Theophylact, or the expostion of the New Testament by Irenaeus, weren't worth preserving at all.  Don't know how they got passed around and how we still have them today.  Shore is a missturry.

Charles... your baby is so cute!

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:11:57
I always love a challenge, Healy.

Well, let's see, the first isn't even a quote by Mother Theresa.

The second isn't the full context (and there's even an elipsis).  Further, I don't even see how you should have any trouble with the first sentence.  And if the first sentence is a given, the rest do actually make sense (all truth is God's truth, all religions have some of that truth in them).

The third also doesn't seem to be a problem--unless you have a problem with being more loving.  (And the throw away quote at the end, once again, lacks a proper context.

The fourth flies in the face of other criticisms of Mother Theresa (i.e., that they required some level of response to the Gospel, if not outright conversion), but even so, who'd have a problem with that?  "Look, I know you're dying of hunger, but first you have to become a Christian."  Isn't that what most Christian humanitarian work does: starts with where they're at?

The fifth and sixth once again lack proper context.

Look, these sorts of things can easily be twisted out of context (and I have no doubt that you don't actually have copies of 1989 issues of Time and such--you doubtless pulled these off some anti-Catholic polemic text or website).

But notice something crucial here: Mother Theresa wasn't denying her Catholic faith ("All this Catholic dogma is just rubbish!").  Nor was she saying that the Hindu gods are just as real as the Christian God.  If you start with the basic premise that all religions have something of truth in them, that all truth is God's truth, then it makes sense that one way you can start to evangelize someone is to help them get to the core truths: love your neighbor as yourself (not a uniquely Christian doctrine that), be at peace, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and so on.   By getting them to the core of their lived truths, they are able to better grasp the Christian gospel.

Now, as to the dying on the deathbed and pray to your gods thing: God meets us where we're at.  He knows what's in our hearts.  If by encountering Mother Theresa's order and finding there love and mercy, and if they came into contact with the Gospel, but had not yet formally and clearly been made a member of Christ through baptism, but in some way intended to, or was on the way--well, this is just my opinion, but I happen to think God would extend his mercy to them.  If, in their confusion because of human sin and idolatry, the word and image that they had for the true God was the Hindu god Krishna--once again, God can best determine whether that intent was extended toward his Son, however strong and murky was their ignorance.

We just don't know how God saves the "exceptions"--except that it is somehow and in someway through Jesus Christ.  I hardly think God would say, "Gosh, you know, everything in your heart and life I can see was oriented toward my Son, but, darn it all, you just didn't have a real clear understanding of what you were doing, and since you said 'Krishna'--even though due to your ignorance I can see you meant Christ--well, I can't grade on the curve here, gotta be a stickler you know, so to hell you go!"

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:18:23I mean the practice of praying the "Rosary"prayer with the aid of beads.

Did the apostles teach that?

I've already answered that question.  The prayers that are part of the Rosary as we know it today, as well as other prayers, such as that of Bartimaeus and the publican, have been prayed with the aid of the prayer rope from the earliest centuries.  Yes, the apostles taught that. 

But the present day form of 15 mysteries (or 20) and so on?  That particular form is only a few centuries old.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:19:58I can attend or go to any of those protestant churches you have mentioned, oh yes I can.  I have, I have been to many of them.  They don't come up and ask you at the door what you believe or if you speak in tongues or like worship with music before giving you a seat and you attending any service...

Ah, but no a capella cofC will let you attend if you bring in your Clavinova and insist on firin' 'er up.  And I guarantee you, if you break out into glossalalia at a Presbyterian church, you'll be escorted to the side.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:19:58The Body of Christ?  Those saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone....   I do understand that.  Jesus made it so clear that anyone could understand it, and believe it.  There really is no membership roll for it, unless you mean... "The Lambs Book of Life"...  which only Jesus Christ alone is worthy to open.

Sorry, catholicity is an essential part of what the New Testament teaches about the Church.  The church you describe utterly lacks it.  So, no, you don't understand.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:19:58Anything else.. is man made.

Like your'n.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:48:48

Quote from: stevehut on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:18:23I mean the practice of praying the "Rosary"prayer with the aid of beads.

Did the apostles teach that?

I've already answered that question.  The prayers that are part of the Rosary as we know it today, as well as other prayers, such as that of Bartimaeus and the publican, have been prayed with the aid of the prayer rope from the earliest centuries.  Yes, the apostles taught that. 

But the present day form of 15 mysteries (or 20) and so on?  That particular form is only a few centuries old.

Please give the chapter and verse IN THE BIBLE that is the "Hail Mary" prayer on the rosary...  not reply she gave or the words that the Angel used to bless her, neither of those are prayers given in the Bible as you stated for us to pray.  

But, they are statements made by Mary and the Angel that men put into a prayer and made the be the largest part of the rosary.  

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:21:56No they did not, and CD said that the prayers were in the Bible and they just put them together to make the rosary... that is false.  The "Hail Mary" is not in the bible.. they took some things that Mary said and that was said by others, and put them together to make a prayer to Mary which became the Hail Mary....   Please don't skip that as you move through this study.

Luke 1:28, 42: "And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, O favored one [in Latin, Greetings/Hail, full of grace; in Greek, Greetings/Hail she having been completely graced], the Lord is with you!' . . . Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"

The additional petition, "Holy Mary, Mother  of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death," is not, strictly speaking, a Scripture citation.  However, Elizabeth calls Mary "the Mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43), so the title "Mother of God" is entirely biblical.  And we are exhorted to pray for one another, another biblical injunction.

By golly, it IS in Scripture!  Who'd'uh thunkit!?

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:51:55

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:19:58I can attend or go to any of those protestant churches you have mentioned, oh yes I can.  I have, I have been to many of them.  They don't come up and ask you at the door what you believe or if you speak in tongues or like worship with music before giving you a seat and you attending any service...

Ah, but no a capella cofC will let you attend if you bring in your Clavinova and insist on firin' 'er up.  And I guarantee you, if you break out into glossalalia at a Presbyterian church, you'll be escorted to the side.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:19:58The Body of Christ?  Those saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone....   I do understand that.  Jesus made it so clear that anyone could understand it, and believe it.  There really is no membership roll for it, unless you mean... "The Lambs Book of Life"...  which only Jesus Christ alone is worthy to open.

Sorry, catholicity is an essential part of what the New Testament teaches about the Church.  The church you describe utterly lacks it.  So, no, you don't understand.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:19:58Anything else.. is man made.

Like your'n.

The mistake you make in your false accusation is that I would do either of those things in those churches.  That I am not pershaps smart enough to have implied grace for what they believe when they host me to their services.  I know that the worship of the LORD is not about me, and I do not have to take music with me or any other thing that I believe in for myself to them, having a desire to attend there and to fellowship with them, would include being humble enough to know that would offend them.  I think you don't understand who the Body of Christ really is at all.  

I think anyone who has seen me post enough here, knows I worship God with and without music, with and without song.  Just not with a Rosary, praying to the saints and the idolatry of the statues that you have in your services.  I have attended Catholic services... but I do not lay rose at the feet of the statue of Mary...   And I'm not going to start.  

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:48:48
But the present day form of 15 mysteries (or 20) and so on?  That particular form is only a few centuries old.

Hence, hundreds of years removed from apostolic authority.

Thanks.   

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:54:22Please give the chapter and verse IN THE BIBLE that is the "Hail Mary" prayer on the rosary...  not reply she gave or the words that the Angel used to bless her, neither of those are prayers given in the Bible as you stated for us to pray.  

But, they are statements made by Mary and the Angel that men put into a prayer and made the be the largest part of the rosary.  

Hmmmm, you seem to have a curious aversion to praying the Scriptures.  You must not pray the Psalms either, because there's no bcv that says we should pray the Psalms.

In fact, come to think of it, there're a whole buncha hymns you sing in worship that you'll have to throw out, because they use Scripture verses that not bcv says we are to pray.

Quote from: stevehut on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 00:03:41Hence, hundreds of years removed from apostolic authority.

Sorry, you're mistaken.  Apostolic authority continues to this day, just as Jesus taught.  (Hint: Matthew 16)

But in any case, the apostolic authority for the practice had already been laid down nearly two milennia ago.  Slight formal developments of the practice hardly constitutes a de novo practic or an innovation, let alone a departure from apostolic practice.

With thinking like what you're displaying here, you'd make a good Muslim--or a Mormon.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:58:28

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 28, 2008 - 23:21:56No they did not, and CD said that the prayers were in the Bible and they just put them together to make the rosary... that is false.  The "Hail Mary" is not in the bible.. they took some things that Mary said and that was said by others, and put them together to make a prayer to Mary which became the Hail Mary....   Please don't skip that as you move through this study.

Luke 1:28, 42: "And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, O favored one [in Latin, Greetings/Hail, full of grace; in Greek, Greetings/Hail she having been completely graced], the Lord is with you!' . . . Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"

The additional petition, "Holy Mary, Mother  of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death," is not, strictly speaking, a Scripture citation.  However, Elizabeth calls Mary "the Mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43), so the title "Mother of God" is entirely biblical.  And we are exhorted to pray for one another, another biblical injunction.

By golly, it IS in Scripture!  Who'd'uh thunkit!?

Like I said...  it is parts and pieces that man took and put together to make the prayers to Mary.. they are not prayers that the Bible tells us to Pray...  Yes we know Mary is the mother, Elizabeth didn't have to tell us...   but, there is no intended instruction in the ENTIRE BIBLE to pray to her.  Or to pray to her repeatedly on a rosary with rope, beads or by any means the same prayer over and over and over again around that circle of rope and beads.. that is just man made garble again.  Nothing about salvation or anything that behooves us in the body.  Not BIBLICALLY...  

But yes, I do see where you took something that is in the bible and twisted it to become a large part of a man made religious practice... sadly..