Christian Forums

I love that picture of McCain in the above post. 

I can't even imagine how any sane American person could think Obama should be our president. It baffles me in a way I can't even explain.

I heard him talking about a 1000.00 dollar tax credit. Sad how many people are going to sell out for a 1000.00 dollars. He's dangling a carrot in front of people and foolishly they follow.  That is going to be the most costly thousand dollars any one has ever received if this man wins.

Obama is a dangerous Marxist/Muslim.


OBAMA MOCKS THE BIBLE
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXcvbnzNIjg


Marx: 'Religion is the opiate of the masses....tear it down and you control them'.


"AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193 KORAN

"ISLAM ISN'T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don't need to look somewhere else." OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.

Quote from Barack Obama's book, Dreams Of My Father:
"THE PERSON WHO MADE ME PROUDEST OF ALL, THOUGH, WAS MY [half brother], ROY..HE CONVERTED TO ISLAM".

From 'Dreams of my Father', "IN INDONESIA, I SPEND TWO YEARS AT A MUSLIM SCHOOL" "..I STUDIED THE KORAN.."

From 'Audacity of Hope: "LOLO (Obama's step father) FOLLOWED ISLAM...."I LOOKED TO LOLO FOR GUIDANCE".

From 'The Audacity Of Hope, "I WILL STAND WITH THEM (MUSLIMS) SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR **** IN AN UGLY DIRECTION.."

From The Audacity Of Hope, "WE ARE NO LONGER JUST A CHRISTIAN NATION, we are also a Jewish nation, a MUSLIM NATION, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html
http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_president_for_Obama_.html?cid=dc-article-obama
.



Obama speech- 'Disarm America':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl32Y7wDVDs

First, I'll stop spending $9 billion a month in Iraq. I'm the only major candidate who opposed this war from the beginning. And as president I will end it.[i.e. not win it]

Second, I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending.

I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems.
I will not weaponize space.

I will slow our development of future combat systems.
And I will institute an independent "Defense Priorities Board" to ensure that the Quadrennial Defense Review is not used to justify unnecessary spending.

Third, I will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons. To seek that goal, I will not develop new nuclear weapons; I will seek a global ban on the production of fissile material; and I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert, and to achieve deep cuts in our nuclear arsenals.

And what do we do when America's military is gutted and the rogue nations are nuked up?





Obamas insult America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TUqS-Vs0Qs&eurl=http://pumaparty.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1779


Obama went overseas to promise the "people of the world

To obama supporters, those undecided:


More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm





MUSLIMS BELIEVE THE KORAN IS THE PERFECT WORD OF GOD as dictated to Mohammed.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. 80- 90 percent of the Koran is composed of this kind advocacy for murder, conquering , looting and rape:



WARFARE IS ORDAINED FOR YOU, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. (2.216)

Sura 33 (a promise to faithful Muslims of countries to conquer) "And he bequeathed to you their lands, their homes and their possessions, together with land you have never trodden" (33.27) .

"Be patient with unbelievers until you have strength" (86.17).

(Muslims are quiet until they have the numbers to start demanding their way in the country they have invaded)

Fight those among the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] ... who do not profess the true religion, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. (9.29)

Quran 3:28 Don't have unbelieving friends unless it is to deceive them. Remember the final goal is to Allah.



"AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193

Quran 9:33 ISLAM WILL PREVAIL OVER ALL RELIGIONS

"ISLAM ISN'T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don't need to look somewhere else." OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKUoxbR9mwA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1qmFEujEtk



WELCOME TO SWEDEN (Coming to USA unless we act)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JBpVAj4ILM



MUSLIMS DESECRATING FLAG AND CONDEMING AMERICA IN NYC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4

There are one billion Muslims in the world, but not one authoritative Muslim organization anywhere has condemned Islamic terror generally (some have condemned 9-11 specifically). All have come out in favor Palestinian terror against Jews, and none has condemned the cult of death developed among Palestinian Muslims in which the Creator is depicted as supplying 72 virgin women to any teenage Muslim boy who blows himself up while murdering Jews (pigs per Qur'an) and Americans (Christians -- monkeys, as the Qur'an states). CAIR issued a "fatwa" condemning the 9/11 attack, stating innocents are never the target of Islamic aggression (but they failed to mention that all infidels are never 'innocent').

There are almost no Muslim democracies in the world; in the Arab world, there are no Muslim democracies.Wherever Islamists take power, a totalitarian regime is set up, and the denials of basic human rights follow. One or more of the Islamic regimes -- Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya -- have either engaged in genocide or supported Islamic regimes that have forbidden all other religious expressions, have exported terror, and have placed women to a status well beneath that of a woman in 10th century Europe. They are, with the exception of North Korea, the cruelest places on earth.



Then absorb this:

In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Muslim call to prayer, the Adhan, "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."
The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet? "

According to Islamic scholars, reciting the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, makes one a Muslim. This simple yet profound statement expresses a Muslim's complete acceptance of, and total commitment to, the message of Islam. Obama chanted it with pride and finesse.



Quote from Barack Obama's book, Dreams Of My Father:
"THE PERSON WHO MADE ME PROUDEST OF ALL, THOUGH, WAS MY [half brother], ROY..HE CONVERTED TO ISLAM".

From 'Dreams of my Father', "IN INDONESIA, I SPEND TWO YEARS AT A MUSLIM SCHOOL" "..I STUDIED THE KORAN.."

From 'Audacity of Hope: "LOLO (Obama's step father) FOLLOWED ISLAM...."I LOOKED TO LOLO FOR GUIDANCE".

From 'The Audacity Of Hope, "I WILL STAND WITH THEM (MUSLIMS) SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR SHIFT IN AN UGLY DIRECTION.."

From The Audacity Of Hope, "WE ARE NO LONGER JUST A CHRISTIAN NATION, we are also a Jewish nation, a MUSLIM NATION, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html

http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_president_for_Obama_.html?cid=dc-article-obama


Do you really want to take a chance?

Communism is vile!!!

Go take your sleeping bag and sleep in the mass graves created by Pol Pot.  Come back and tell me how wonderful communism is then.

Atheist (Communism) Atrocities: Frightening Stats About Atheists

[youtube=425,350]vW62EilDXPY[/youtube]

The topic presents a false dichotomy based on confused thinking.

Christianity is a religion not a political system nor is it a political
party, all though many cultural Christians in the US equate the two.
And many people affiliated with a Christian church are not Believers in
Jesus Christ as One True Redeemer.

Communism is a political system, albeit with religious and economic
dictates.

The thread might have yielded more fruit as Communism vs Capitalism
Or Christianity vs Atheism.

Or better yet, Christianity under & despite Communism

Just an observation.

I think the trend toward exclusivity, closed-mindedness and "give me your money for the greater good" that the church exhibits (and usually exploits) is very Communist. In many situations, most of that money goes to the administration or the building... not the people in the community who need it. They don't need a pretty building to worship in - they need food, diapers, decent housing, and other things that Socialism provides.

PS. Communism is corrupt Socialism. We should compare Christianity with Socialism. The similarities are ASTOUNDING! Don't look into it if you don't want to change the way you think. The facts are undeniable. Read Jesus' teachings on the poor, orphans, and widows. Then think how about socialistic it sounds.

Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that. 

Quote from: jmg3rd on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:25:24
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that. 

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:12-14
Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 19:8-10
Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Quote from: TheSocialistChrist on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:49:46

Quote from: jmg3rd on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:25:24
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that. 

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:12-14
Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 19:8-10
Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

None of that has anything to do one way or the other with a form of government.

Quote from: Jimmy on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:52:20

Quote from: TheSocialistChrist on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:49:46

Quote from: jmg3rd on Wed Oct 29, 2008 - 12:25:24
Hmm.  Got a book, chapter, and verse quoting Jesus advocating "theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Good luck with that. 

None of that has anything to do one way or the other with a form of government.

No, but it does show that it isn't an unGodly form of government.

It doesn't say anything about government whatsoever, godly or ungodly.  It speaks of personal responsibility not government intrusion and redistribution.

I agree with this topic, but I think many Americans want a democratic ideal because they are lazy, want to mooch of welfare/social security/unemployment forever, and want a life with "zero risk". Sorry, that's just not how life works, and its so sad that Americans have been raised to believe that.

I've worked since I was 16, back when minimum wage was 5.25/hour, and my current net worth is (negative) -$350,000. Now will I have this paid off some day? Sure...but life isn't fun with the debt of a house and student loans. No free rides, no free lunches, capitalism should rule.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Sat Nov 01, 2008 - 02:19:33
I agree with this topic, but I think many Americans want a democratic ideal because they are lazy, want to mooch of welfare/social security/unemployment forever, and want a life with "zero risk". Sorry, that's just not how life works, and its so sad that Americans have been raised to believe that.

I've worked since I was 16, back when minimum wage was 5.25/hour, and my current net worth is (negative) -$350,000. Now will I have this paid off some day? Sure...but life isn't fun with the debt of a house and student loans. No free rides, no free lunches, capitalism should rule.

fanuvmxpx, are you changing your tune or am I confusing you with someone else. I thought you were an Obama fan and he supports a massive welfare state.

Quote from: admin on Thu Nov 06, 2008 - 15:50:29
fanuvmxpx, are you changing your tune or am I confusing you with someone else. I thought you were an Obama fan and he supports a massive welfare state.

No, I'm Independent, I actually didn't vote for McCain or Obama. I'll lay out my voting stance from this year...

I was never going to Vote for Obama. I was a McCain supporter until he selected Palin as his VP and I decided to vote third party this year. Any non-democratic vote in my state doesn't do any good anyways, too many far lefties here (CA).

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Thu Nov 06, 2008 - 19:02:11I was a McCain supporter until he selected Palin as his VP and I decided to vote third party this year.

Why did McCain's running mate make you decide against voting republican?

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Nov 07, 2008 - 11:08:27
Why did McCain's running mate make you decide against voting republican?

Well, I've never been in the republican party, always independent, it allows me to step back from the political fighting and look at all candidates (there's usually about 8 or so every year) and make a decision on who could best help the country.

I'm a big advocate of having a strong VP, for the sole reason that we never know what the future holds. McCain seems as strong & healthy as an oxe, that never worried me, but JFK among others looked healthy too. Point being, I have always voted for a strong vice president along with the president.

Governor Palin is a very nice woman, and she has wonderful morals, and lots have said "well, she's outside of politics so it could be a refreshing change." I couldn't agree more, but her lack of education regarding international affairs & economics could be very dangerous as a potential president. McCain was well versed in international affairs, but Palin was not, and I couldn't cast my vote for that reason.

I always vote for morals first, than intelligence, and lastly, party. It helps me pick the best candidate (in my opinion of course) without getting involved in the bickering of the two-party system. I hope that explains it alright.

I voted for Chuck Baldwin / Darrell Castle. The Constitution Party.


"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams

Fully understanding this discussion to be about human governments, please, allow me to remind we disciples of Christ that as His followers, as members of His body (the Church), as citizens of the Kingdom of God, our allegiance belongs to our King: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As I understand it, God's Kingdom, by virtue of being a kingdom, would be what we might call a "monarchy." As subjects in this particular monarchy, we can rely upon our King to provide for our needs, to protect us from our enemies, and to take responsibility for our welfare. In return we owe to Him our worship, our praise, our adoration, and our obedience. Such is life in a monarchy; but, oh what a life indeed when the King is God! God told Israel that having a human king was not such a great idea, but that was because He wanted them to have Him as their King, no one else.

I was born in these United States of America. I am legally one of her citizens. Please, do not think me treasonous, but I am a Christian first, which means to me that I am first a citizen of the Kingdom of God and one of His subjects. My citizenship in any nation of this earth ended when God called me to Him. The government to which I am subject is a Holy Monarchy, and the Triune Christ is my King.

the only time jesus was a capitalist in the bible is when he told the rich man to SELL all of his belongings and follow him...
the rest points to jesus being  a certain kind of communist...

let it be noted that the failed communist governments in recent times also hold a strict anit-religion stance...

Every economic system is flawed. And just because a twisted ruler/country perverts an economic system does not make it inherently bad.

In a perfect society, where everyone was treated equal, communism would be an excellent economic choice...because all would be treated equal. The problem is, when you throw sin into the picture, no system is safe, but at least a democracy/capitalist society gives "some" influence to the people.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:36:39
Every economic system is flawed. And just because a twisted ruler/country perverts an economic system does not make it inherently bad.

In a perfect society, where everyone was treated equal, communism would be an excellent economic choice...because all would be treated equal. The problem is, when you throw sin into the picture, no system is safe, but at least a democracy/capitalist society gives "some" influence to the people.

Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Personally, I hope that it does sooner than later.....I would rather go through it than my kids

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07
Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Personally, I hope that it does sooner than later.....I would rather go through it than my kids

I couldn't agree more Corbley, I've been a practicing economist for decades. Do you agree with me on something I wonder?...

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07
Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

Now it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

The economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Personally, I hope that it does sooner than later.....I would rather go through it than my kids

I couldn't agree more Corbley, I've been a practicing economist for decades. Do you agree with me on something I wonder?...

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:51:21

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures

and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...

Quote from: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:48:20

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:51:21

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures

and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...

Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)

Quote from: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 12:44:43

Quote from: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:48:20

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:51:21

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures

and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...

Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)

okay, new world order
surely you're not suggesting that i should be scared of a new world order?

if it's god's plan, it's god's plan... am i to fight it?
as a believer, it's more of a reminder to get more people on board than a subject of worry and fear.

Quote from: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 23:47:30

Quote from: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 12:44:43

Quote from: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:48:20

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:51:21

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures

and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...

Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)

okay, new world order
surely you're not suggesting that i should be scared of a new world order?

if it's god's plan, it's god's plan... am i to fight it?
as a believer, it's more of a reminder to get more people on board than a subject of worry and fear.

You are absolutely correct.....I welcome the "New World Order" or Globalization (if you prefer),  When we see that come to life, then Christ will be coming soon after that......No the NWO is nothing to fear for Christians, it is something we should welcome and be encouraged by.....Along with the rise of the Anti-Christ.....I welcome these things and know that when we begin to see these things unfold......The wickedness of this world is going to be punished; the greed of the most wealthy, their arrogance...and in the end they will be bowing to us servants of Christ..........No brother, I do welcome the NWO,   It is part of God's perfect plan,  SO you misunderstood, what I was trying to say.    (We are on the same page)

Quote from: Corbley on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 09:59:22

Quote from: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 23:47:30

Quote from: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 12:44:43

Quote from: the innate on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:48:20

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:51:21

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:14:47

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07

I believe that our US budget won't collapse our economy, but rather when the world "calls our loans" for all those Treasury Bonds they are holding. Its hard to tell, because on the one hand, they could "take out" America financially...but then who would buy their products? I'm pretty convinced that if the American financial system fails, everyone will.

I do agree, but I think it may happen a little different.....Like perhaps, ceasing assets owned...instead of calling in debt...They could control certain infrastructures

and control they will, but it still takes at the very least two to trade, barter, deal, etc....
the global economy is very real and becoming more realized.... in a very real sense, 'them' is 'us'

every morning the nyse opens on the heels of the asian markets
it's all different shades of the same world...

Right! The whole world economic system is becoming bound together....It is the begining of the New World Order (Or Globalization, if you perfer....They are the same thing)

okay, new world order
surely you're not suggesting that i should be scared of a new world order?

if it's god's plan, it's god's plan... am i to fight it?
as a believer, it's more of a reminder to get more people on board than a subject of worry and fear.

You are absolutely correct.....I welcome the "New World Order" or Globalization (if you prefer),  When we see that come to life, then Christ will be coming soon after that......No the NWO is nothing to fear for Christians, it is something we should welcome and be encouraged by.....Along with the rise of the Anti-Christ.....I welcome these things and know that when we begin to see these things unfold......The wickedness of this world is going to be punished; the greed of the most wealthy, their arrogance...and in the end they will be bowing to us servants of Christ..........No brother, I do welcome the NWO,   It is part of God's perfect plan,  SO you misunderstood, what I was trying to say.    (We are on the same page)

i admittedly have prejudices... i apologize... i'm actually learning that there is humility and reason within the christian community...

again, i apologize...

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:01:07
Our economic system became flawed when it became the IMF.......
Before then, throughout history, it has always been backed by a "tangable" commodity. (Gold, silver, gems, barter/trade)

No, some folks only clung to the myth that such is possible.  The normal banking process makes a gold standard logically impossible.

QuoteNow it is backed by nothing but debt and that is the reason it is failing.....Not Dem's, Not Republicans......Because it is nothing but debt, that drives our economy.

It is "backed", whatever that means, by what our economy has always actually been backed by, the productivity and ingenuity of our people.

QuoteThe economic stress we are in now is the economy leaving the debt backed system (The IMF) and converting back to a Gold standard.
The Market will crash!...It is only a matter of when (not if)

Since a gold standard is logically impossible, we won't be converting back to it. 

It appears that you are either a socialist or a communist, since you advocate a gold standard.  Which?  If you protest that you are neither, keep in mind that advocating a gold standard does make it so since you are for the government telling the miners what their product is worth. 

14 pages when all that's really needed is a simple answer to this question:  Who would call these "Christian Nations"?

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
North Korea
Laos
Vietnam
And just for old time's sake, the USSR during its 70 year experiment

Anyone?  Anyone?

Quote from: jmg3rd on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 08:08:33
14 pages when all that's really needed is a simple answer to this question:  Who would call these "Christian Nations"?

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
North Korea
Laos
Vietnam
And just for old time's sake, the USSR during its 70 year experiment

Anyone?  Anyone?

Is there anyone out there that is repulsed by even the idea of a 'christian nation' to begin with.

Well, in my book there's really no such thing, but I think you get my drift.

Quote from: Mere Nick on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 07:55:04
No, some folks only clung to the myth that such is possible.  The normal banking process makes a gold standard logically impossible.

It is "backed", whatever that means, by what our economy has always actually been backed by, the productivity and ingenuity of our people.

Since a gold standard is logically impossible, we won't be converting back to it. 

It appears that you are either a socialist or a communist, since you advocate a gold standard.  Which?  If you protest that you are neither, keep in mind that advocating a gold standard does make it so since you are for the government telling the miners what their product is worth.

Mere Nick, I see what you are saying, but in Corbley's defense:

The Federal Reserve is not a normal banking process, it has the power to "coin" money from nothing. I mean sure, we issue treasury bonds, but America is a consumption nation...we hardly produce anything. And even the things we do produce (US Auto Industry) are failing. So, if the dollar is backed by us (US citizen production) than its value is decreasing daily.

I don't think banks should convert back to a gold standard, I just feel the currency coiner (Fed) should be backed against a tangible asset (oil, metal, something). If Big American businesses fail (as they are now) the entire country goes down, not just the people who did the bad things, that's the flaw with our economic system.

The dollar's value is realized by the success of major American companies. The success of major American companies is realized by the investments interests of the entire world economy. The Federal Reserve is a non-government entity whose primary concern is keeping the entire world's currencies up.

All the current economic signs would suggest that idealized/realized currency value does not work. US businesses are failing, which in turn makes our citizens fail, which in turn makes the world fail. Which is why we will have one world currency, because it will be backed by the whole world and I'm sure the anti-christ will claim this will eliminate any ripple effects with business. If money is at peace, the world is at peace.

Lastly, the market value of gold would still be decided by supply/demand from the entire world...so the US government could not regulate its value (if they followed the laws of economics). If your money is backed by something, it doesn't render capitalism null, it simply doesn't allow people to live in a 'dream world' that America will always be on top because it is America & we have bigger guns. Its all tied together, fear, money, greed, and America is a superpower because we employ all 3. I love our freedoms, but I also think we need to pay for our mistakes and live realistically.

Quote from: the innate on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 11:12:12
the only time jesus was a capitalist in the bible is when he told the rich man to SELL all of his belongings and follow him...
the rest points to jesus being  a certain kind of communist...

let it be noted that the failed communist governments in recent times also hold a strict anit-religion stance...

You are really making a massive, inappropriate leap here. Just because Jesus told one man that he needed to sell all his things doesn't mean it applies to everyone. He didn't tell the disciples to stop being fisherman which supplied them with income. He didn't tell Zacchaeus to stop being a tax collector. Jesus said in Luke 10:7 that a worker deserves his pay.

It was simply one man who thought he had it all together and Jesus found a weakness in the armor. The guy loved money more than Jesus.

You can be a wealthy person, having worked hard as the Bible commands, been wise with your money as the Bible book of Proverbs teaches and follow Jesus. You can do lots of good things with money. It is the "LOVE of money" that is "the root of all kinds of evil." Having money - even lots of it - is not the problem, loving it is.

Jesus had a specific mission at that point. If the man sold his posessions and "followed" Jesus he would be doing so for a specific purpose. He would have been one of the disciples and would have followed Jesus to specific places to do specific things at the SPECIFIC instruction of Jesus. Later, after Jesus went to be with the Father, we read Paul telling people to stay in the situation they're in and to lead people to Jesus within our lifestyle and situation (1 Corinthians 7).

Money feeds people. Money does a lot of good. It's the LOVE of money that is bad, not having money and even having lots of it.

Furthermore, Jesus was not proposing a system of government. When a government tries to control money, it has failed because the ones who control it have all the power. Communism can never work in a world of imperfect people. Capitalism, however, if left alone by the government, offers a limitless flow of money. Everyone can access it. Rich people invest, buy, loan and donate. They don't simply bury their money in a bucket in the backyard. They invest in businesses, hoping for a return, and, if the business is successful, that creates income for others. They buy products, which pays salaries and funds a business, they loan money which can start a business, build a house, buy a car to get to work, etc.

If you provide a product or service that society wants, they reward you for it with currency/money. That way, you can provide a service if you want or work with/for someone who does. You can work long hours to produce a better service or better product and be rewarded more. Or you can work the minimum amount to pay your bills. It's your choice in a free market/capitalist system. You can use your creativity and talents to serve mankind and be rewarded for it. In communism, a government decides what you do, where you live to do it and how much you are compensated. There's no such thing as working more to earn more or making a better product to earn more--you have to stand in line like everyone else to get your ration of toliet paper for the week. Don't be fooled. History has shown that it's a terrible that crucifies freedom. People risk their lives to float on old doors across the ocean to escape communist Cuba. They don't do that because communism is just so awesome. They do that for freedom.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 13:05:07
Mere Nick, I see what you are saying, but in Corbley's defense:

The Federal Reserve is not a normal banking process, it has the power to "coin" money from nothing.

The normal banking process creates and destroys money by the issuance and repayments of loans.  It happens regardless of the existence of a Federal Reserve, gold standard, whatever you name.

QuoteI mean sure, we issue treasury bonds, but America is a consumption nation...we hardly produce anything. And even the things we do produce (US Auto Industry) are failing. So, if the dollar is backed by us (US citizen production) than its value is decreasing daily.

The dollar is backed by our actual production.  Do you remember the equation mv=pq?

QuoteI don't think banks should convert back to a gold standard, I just feel the currency coiner (Fed) should be backed against a tangible asset (oil, metal, something).

In short, you want the government to control the price of something, for whatever reason, but you just can't make up your mind what you want it to control.

QuoteThe Federal Reserve is a non-government entity whose primary concern is keeping the entire world's currencies up.

It is independent within the government.  The president appoints the board of governors, subject to senate approval.

QuoteAll the current economic signs would suggest that idealized/realized currency value does not work. US businesses are failing, which in turn makes our citizens fail, which in turn makes the world fail. Which is why we will have one world currency, because it will be backed by the whole world and I'm sure the anti-christ will claim this will eliminate any ripple effects with business. If money is at peace, the world is at peace.

The signs tell me what doesn't work is governmental involvement in economic decision making based upon partisan concerns.  This financial meltdown is due to the CRA-Fannie Mae-Freddie Mac mess. 

QuoteLastly, the market value of gold would still be decided by supply/demand from the entire world...so the US government could not regulate its value (if they followed the laws of economics). If your money is backed by something, it doesn't render capitalism null, it simply doesn't allow people to live in a 'dream world' that America will always be on top because it is America & we have bigger guns. Its all tied together, fear, money, greed, and America is a superpower because we employ all 3. I love our freedoms, but I also think we need to pay for our mistakes and live realistically.

You completely contradict yourself here.  The idea of backing money with anything is a logical impossibility.  Visit this website for an explanation of why it is impossible and, therefore, a complete waste of time to seriously consider it.  It's already been tried and it fails.

However, if there is a gold standard than, yes, it destroys any idea of market value.  Let's say the government pegs the dollar at 800 being worth an ounce of gold.  Why would anyone ever consider paying one cent more when they can buy it from the US government at that price?  Why would anyone sell for a penny less when they can sell to the government at that price?

You might also find this to be very informative.

This, too.

Along with this.

And finally,this. Christians and Conspiracy Theories, A Call to Repentance.