hymnal

susieface · Thu May 23, 2002 - 09:05:37

I totally agree with Wiley on this subject. He expressed my thoughts exactly.
I would definitely leave out songs such as "I'll Fly Away". All this song makes me think of is birds flapping their wings.

The Songs of Faith and Praise book is halfway to what I prefer. But there are an awful lot of praise songs that i love that aren't included. Such as "Redeemer, Savior, Friend" and "Firm Foundation" etc.

Susie

Arkstfan · Thu May 23, 2002 - 22:55:17

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ May 23 2002,1:20)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Eating humble pie is never a tasty task.[/quote]
Use Tabasco, then it tastes like chicken.

I just wish I gotten to come up as often as I've gotten my come uppance.

Arkstfan · Fri May 31, 2002 - 20:51:17

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ May 31 2002,12:35)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Glad's not Church of Christ, are they? I know they're not strictly acapella.[/quote]
I'm not strictly acapella either.

Kebercer1 is DoC but not strictly instrumental.

We're becoming mutts! :0

marc · Sat Jun 01, 2002 - 18:00:02

Hadn't taken offense--just wondered if I'd left a wrong impression. Janine, I've heard their "adulterated" stuff and like it also, although those acapella hymn arrangements are still my favorites. btw, I also first heard of Acapella (the group, not the style) through contemporary Christian radio, not through the Church of Christ, although I was familiar with Keith Lancaster from back in his "New Life" (if I remember the name correctly; it's been a long while) days in Williamstown, WV.

nerdneh · Mon Jun 03, 2002 - 20:24:11

Wiley, Lester Duncan sounds like someone I would like to know, but I don't believe I have met him as yet.

I know the "speaking in tongues" miracle at Pentecost was obviously God's Way of signifying a reversal of the Tower of Babel punishment. That is, that everyone, everywhere could have praise access to God. Whether with a click or with savoir faire. How did speaking in tongues become an individual trophy?

david johnson · Mon May 20, 2002 - 20:15:16

comrades:

describe your ideal hymnal, if you were the editor.

dj

david johnson · Thu May 23, 2002 - 11:55:03

susieface:

gasp....say it isn't so! i like that song!
i'll settle for a paste-in for the inside cover.

dj :)

nerdneh · Thu May 23, 2002 - 21:20:49

A few years ago, I decided to try and upgrade the taste of the congregation I was preaching in in Nashville. We had fallen into a love of S-B songs, and in my naivete and arrogance, I suppose, I thought we would all be better off singing something with more substance and more of a Scriptural motif. But, how to do it?

I crafted a questionnaire, cleverly done I thought, and distributed it one Sunday AM to the eight hundred or so folks assembled there. I explained we were trying to get a feel for the tastes and preferences of the congregation (not all together untrue!).

The idea was to list your ten favorite hymns and why. That was the first part. Then, the second part asked that you then list the ten hymns that you believed were the most Scriptural and that upheld God and His glory most aptly.

My thinking was, that after listing the first ten, the group would be aghast at how poorly based on God's Word they were, as they earnestly compared them to their second listing. Of course, they would all be determined to go forward and embrace better and more uplifting taste.

Well, when I evaluated the questionnaires, I found almost everyone had exactly the same list. The first and the second were virtually identical.

Eating humble pie is never a tasty task.

kebecer1 · Fri May 31, 2002 - 22:04:54

Hey, now! My excuse for being a mutt is French-Cdn on one side, and Scots-Irish on the other: I love toboganning (sp?)--you Southerners don't know what that is, not really :p --and maple syrup; but I can sing "Oh, Danny-boy" on St. Patty's Day, too.

Seriously, I lead songs often in the congregation in the c-of-C style (shape the notes), due to a theatrical organist who shouldn't really be slaughtering tunes on the windox--and we have guitars, a cappella and all manner of loud sounds!

janine · Sat Jun 01, 2002 - 16:43:18

I haven't the foggiest notion what religious heritage the Glad guys come from. Seem to remember they had, ah, adulterated their body of work w/ instruments, but I've never heard any of those songs! :0 :p

As far as that goes, I'm sure the "instrupella" element of ACAPPELLA's work, the vocal sound effects, clapping, clicking, clucking, stomping... feel pretty adulterated to many in the church who have a more narrow view than I do...

marc · Mon Jun 03, 2002 - 19:02:28

I've heard New Creation perform along with Echo (who I've heard a few more times). That was back in the early 90's and I haven't heard from them since--but I've been a bit out of the loop.

I know Echo disbanded in the early 90's and I heard not long after they were going to get back together, but I guess nothing ever came of it. I know Hank did some backup on some of Acapella's stuff shortly after that.

janine · Mon May 20, 2002 - 23:08:41

I may need to work on that one a while, saving it in a file until I get it just right!

I know it would be pretty thick, but since the one my group uses now is well over 1000 songs (a few of those are choruses only, which irks me...), what could a few more hurt?

We'd have them for tradition/nostalgia, and to take with us to the funerals and nursing homes, because what I'd really love to see is the words & notes up on a screen behind the conductor/songleader.

Perhaps there'd be no pleasing everyone; my desire to have something of every music style under the sun would surely not be everyone's desire.

I'll stew on this topic and get back with y'all. I look forward to the (assuredly more highbrow) suggestions & selections everyone else will post. :)

WileyClarkson · Tue May 21, 2002 - 15:36:52

Wow! That's a tough question for anyone to answer given the vast variety of preferences in music in the church. I have been involved in song leading for more than 20 years so here is my view from the front as a song leader/worship leader.

Personally, I would like a song book that had about 10% of what I call the "majestic" songs of the 1600's-1800's (songs by Luther, Watts, Handel, Newton, etc), a good selection of Fanny J. Crosby songs with a few of the Stamps-Baxter-Gaither styles of music (10%), and the balance (80%)(and vast majority) of songs that are very contemporary written and sung by groups like Ken Young & Hallal, Zoe Group, New Creation, Acappella, Twila Paris, Rich Mullins, Michael W. Smith, etc., with emphasis on songs of personal worship, praise, and prayer/lament. I would also include some devotional/responsive reading keyed directly to certain songs.

As far as song books presently in print, Howard Publishing's "Songs of Faith and Praise" makes it about 50% of the way to what I would like to see. If SFP were edited to about 50% of it's present size, then Hallal's, Zoe's, and the other's I listed above were added in to produce a song book of the approximate size of the present SFP, and the full contemporary songs were published instead of just the refrains (eg: Step by Step by Rich Mullins), that would be what I have in mind. I would also like to see the songbook have a matching computer database/midi program similar to SFP's with the added capability that when the song is converted to a Power Point file for projection the file would also include the four part music scores exactly as it is published in the printed book but broken into multiple slides for projection.

The song book and supporting programs of my dreams!

marc · Thu May 23, 2002 - 19:06:01

Somehow I'm reminded of the television commercial (excuse me for misquoting, but I tend to flip channels during commercials) where the man walks into the shop asking for a piece of music and is given outlandishly comprehensive choices. The man asks "how is that possible?" and the shopkeeper responds "we have every piece of music ever recorded".

Maybe then we could produce a songbook that pleases everyone.

Personally, I admit I will never be satisfied. I am always hearing new songs, new pieces of music of every style that I would add to my ideal hymnal. And I hope worthy songs are still being written!

nerdneh · Fri May 24, 2002 - 07:59:19

arkstfan, this is really stupid, but years ago a story went around that a particular congregation used white grape juice at the communion. They did this because one of their members owned a vineyard which had these kinds of grapes. (I suppose it really missed the symbolism badly).

Anyway, some rascal decided to substitute persimmon juice one Sunday. Everyone gulped it down without thinking, and supposedly the Song Leader stood up and said; "All stand, and let's whistle the Doxology."

marc · Sat May 25, 2002 - 08:52:31

Include anything you'd like, but if I may put in a request, PLEASE omit "As the Life of a Flower".

I'm still suffering from years of songleaders dragging out the closing words "and alas, we must die" as if the process would be completed momentarily.

Also, a song I haven't heard for years--"After Death, What Then?"--could be left out without hurting my feelings. This was sung at the first funeral I ever attended, the services for my step-great-grandfather, who--from what I've heard--never gave God a thought during his life. Not exactly the appropriate use of a song--but that's a whole 'nother story.

ThisIsMy32CharactersLongUserName · Sat May 25, 2002 - 19:52:47

Anyone here ever listen to ApologetiX? They do Christian parodies of popular rock songs -- they've parodied Queen ("Bethlehemian Rhapsody"), Aerosmith ("Walk His Way") and lots more. Don't expect those to ever turn up in a church hymnal, but who knows!

Arkstfan, was it you who mentioned the Songs of Faith and Praise hymnal? That's what we use. One song that's not in there that I wish were is "Be Thou My Vision." I also like a lot of the newer praise songs, even the repetitive ones -- some things bear repeating IMO. Basically I like a variety.

Wishing all a blessed, happy, and safe Memorial Day weekend ...

janine · Wed May 29, 2002 - 05:48:59

I suppose we could just call you 32. Or Barb.

Perhaps you'd rather something more chocolatey?

marc · Sat Jun 01, 2002 - 05:51:32

Sorry, I think I didn't say what I mean. Those two thoughts should have been better separated or connected or something.

I was just trying to say that Glad wasn't really a Church-of-Christ-capital-letter-accepted-by-the-establishment-brotherhood group, as far as I know. I learned of them through contemporary Christian radio (where I was employed at the time--I have all sorts of skeletons in my closet). And I was further saying that they probably shouldn't be thought of as a group only we know about, and they even use instruments on occasion.

And then I was kind-of saying, uh, at least I think that's right, but I'm really not sure.

And I'm not strictly acapella either. Got caught tapping my foot in worship last Sunday.

And hey, I was singing along with Steven Curtis Chapman the other day (He is God and I am not, I can only see a part of the picture he's painting. . . )

nerdneh · Sat Jun 01, 2002 - 22:19:30

Wiley, I cannot recall the group you mentioned, but several years ago a group called the Horizons were very good. I can remember Dale Brown and Dannette Key were two of the members. They sang at Donelson where I worked in the 70's, and I suppose have long disbanded.

Quite off the topic, but if an African missionary can chime in here, I wonder how those people in Africa whose language consists entirely of different types of "clicks" made with the tongue, would sound when they sang? Would they have to learn English to be OK?

janine · Mon Jun 03, 2002 - 03:52:40

I remember that the clicks in that clicky language were noted in writing with an exclaimation mark...

Whatever a human language is, you oughta be able to sing in it... we are guided to sing, from what I see in the NT... people who speak sign language need to sign with their hands, people who click or chirp or "glung" in the backs of their throats like bullfrogs, all need to be able to communicate in song to their God and to each other...

If Stephen Hawking came to worship with us & wanted to sing using his whatchamacallit -- voder? mechanical voice? -- to worship God in song, well, he oughta be able to sing like everyone else.

If the guy with cerebral palsy whom I met in college, who spoke by poking buttons on a keypad, which then spat out strips of paper, wanted to furiously type away & produce written song all through the worship service, who am I to stop him?

What a can of worms these modern times have caused for those of us who want to just follow the Bible! :0

nerdneh · Tue Jun 04, 2002 - 06:26:31

Wiley, please do. You can never have enough quality friends.

nerdneh · Tue May 21, 2002 - 06:42:05

This is probably far beyond my expertise, since I am sure many factors enter in, that is, singability, copyright problems, and general complications from any endeavor so tremendous in scope. But, it is a fair question, and I hope, dj, that you will help us here.

I would want some of the real classics, including some hymns that may reflect not only a Protestant tradition, but any that glorify God, such as "Art Thou Weary?" which is from Mount Athos and dates to the 8th century, and even a few of the Tchaikovsky hymns from the John Chrysostom liturgy. Many could be expressed vocally by a modern audience. I would like some of the easier hymns of, say, a John Rutter or Franz Biebl (did I spell that right?)

Some of the better Praise Songs that are agreed upon editorially as something more than just a "pop" type.

Devotional readings would also be helpful.

The more I think on this, the more ignorant I realize I am in this area, but this is a good topic that should be discussed. Perhaps most people feel like I that they are not really qualified to make too many pronouncements in this area.

david johnson · Tue May 21, 2002 - 16:42:04

you all have excellent ideas. i posted a similar item on Worship Forum.com. hope you visit them and read those views.
perhaps we should all find 'sugar daddy deep pockects' and pool our collective ignorance in pursuit of our new publication-

cyber psalter, or hymns for the third millenium, or galactic sacred songs, or chromatic voice of the spirit, or...or.....

dj

Thu May 23, 2002 - 17:58:10

I'm not a traditionalist, but I miss the oldies that really make one feel good. This includes "I'll Fly Away" and "Have a Little Talk With Jesus." Goofy songs? Yes, but they always put a smile on my face and I leave with a song stuck in my head and heart!

janine · Fri May 24, 2002 - 05:12:23

Oh, Susieface!

Maybe if you'd been persecuted enough in your life, you'd understand the longing to "go home" expressed in songs like "I'll Fly Away"...

Seriously, though, I can understand taking a disliking to a particular song, due to an unfortunate resonance in the lyric, or due to a childhood memory... for any number of reasons. My friend Karen gets "the willies" from the line about the "All-Seeing Eye watching you". She used to imagine this great, bloodshot eyeball glaring at her. (Was it Tom Sawyer that felt like the big eye in the stained glass window of his church was looking at him? Or was that from "Penrod and Sam"?)

My husband's nephew Allen used to sing "Oh, Savior, my Redeemer, how can I buy a Ford?" ("how can I but adore..."). My husband thinks "some poor fainting, struggling semen /you may rescue, you may save."

My husband's older half-brothers had all sorts of parody lyrics they'd irritate their mother with (hopefully not while they were actually in worship!). There was the one set to the music of "At the Cross", something like "At the bar, at the bar/Where I smoked my first cigar..." and "At the dance, at the dance/Where I tore my Sunday pants..."

OK, you can stop giggling now. :p

susieface · Sat May 25, 2002 - 07:18:51

LOL, we did the "sowing the seed of the king, dumb brother" also when I was in school. That must have picked up everywhere.

OK, David Johnson, you can your pasted insert of I'll Fly Away!! I will give you that. But it has to be loose so it can flap a little like birds wings!!

Janine, I can understand the "willies" of the "allseeing eye watching you". When I was a little kid, I pictured a sort of cyclops eye watching every move I made. I truthfully even had a nightmare of this song one Sunday night after we sang it in our Sunday evening worship. My dad teased me about this for years. My older cousin would come at me and say the eye was watching me and I would run off screaming. Mean!!

Susie

janine · Sun May 26, 2002 - 02:11:37

I love Be Thou My Vision. Ever heard Glad do it? And the one that starts, "Father, hear the prayer we offer / nor for ease that prayer shall be / but for strength that we may ever / live our lives courageously".

I like Glad a lot. Their laid-back, jazzed, finger-snapping version of "Shout to The Lord" is amazing. Just when I think I can't stand to hear another Christian song sung too slow, along comes one so perfect and appropriate and well-done, I can hardly remember the original version. :p

I've heard of Apologetix - seen 'em in catalogs- and maybe heard one song of theirs on the Baptist Theological Seminary's radio station. Gotta get something of theirs; I love a good parody as much as I do a good pun.

marc · Fri May 31, 2002 - 20:35:52

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'd heard of Glad before but barely know who they are. I guess I'm just not a very good church of Christ'er. [/quote]

Glad's not Church of Christ, are they? I know they're not strictly acapella.

Arkstfan · Sat Jun 01, 2002 - 15:59:38

Sorry I was just making fun of the idea that once someone plays a piano, drum, horn or guitar that they have given up their church of Christ identity.

And if I can give Kebercer1 a hard time in the process that's just gravy. :D

WileyClarkson · Sat Jun 01, 2002 - 22:06:17

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Seem to remember they had, ah, adulterated their body of work w/ instruments, but I've never heard any of those songs! [/quote]

Just out of curiosity--anyone ever listened to New Creation?
They are/were an a cappella contemporary group that formed at Harding who wrote a large portion of what they sang and were popular back in the mid to late 90's. They had a GREAT!!!!! sound -- very tight harmony, unique style, and outstanding messages in their songs. They also "adulterated" their a cappella sound (shame on them :D) on several albums for the churches and listeners that enjoy a slight instrument sound (me for one). They were popular among CoC, DoC, CC/CoC, and some independent non-denom churches. They performed two or three times at the Southwest Youth Conference in San Antonio.

Haven't heard anything about them in several years. Can anyone update me on the group?

WileyClarkson · Sun Jun 02, 2002 - 02:52:56

I forgot to mention that the group was based in La Jolla, California the last time I heard. The main singers/song writers were Amy Gott Carper and husband Chris Carper, Lydia and Kyle Gott. They also used guest vocalist such as Hank Fenn, who I believe was the lead singer for the
a cappella group "Echo" that was based in Amarillo, TX. The last time I heard New Creation was at Richland Hills CoC in Ft. Worth during the closing night of the summer youth series about 6 years ago, I think. Echo also seems to have disbanded. Haven't heard from them in quite sometime either.

Echo was a group that was extremly popular with the youth in this area during the 90's and cut several albums over the years including a beautiful Christmas Album called "Peace on Earth". They used to come to a summer camp near here everyyear and would not only perform, but would work as camp counselors while they were there.

I really love finding very contemporary a cappella groups like these that are usually composed of university students doing music ministry. One interesting side note on New Creation. At one of their concerts (I believe it was in Colorado but my memory isn't what it used to beeeeeee:( ), they and their music were responsible for several baptisms after a concert. That says there's power in music when it's coupled with a real message, and their songs had strong evangelistic messages in them.

peck · Tue May 21, 2002 - 11:14:06

My favorites are the old timers sung with emotion such as "there is a fountain filled with blood".

I think the way we express our voices to the music is very important."have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power,are you washed in the blood of the lamb".

Instead of the songleader stressing notes and perfection in the music,I would prefer encouraging the audience to put feelings into the words.Some congregations seem to do that on their own and it is so uplifting.

Oh well,to each his own.I'm glad we have diversity.

God bless,Charles

janine · Fri May 24, 2002 - 15:09:26

What may be even worse is when some oft-quoted segment of Scripture is, ah, shifted in your mind...

Have you heard someone handling the Lord's Supper stand up and quote, or even worse, read aloud:

"I will not have you! Ignorant brethren!"

A little levity levitates the whole lump! :D :p :) :D

marc · Sun May 26, 2002 - 06:07:19

Some associations are better than others--as soon as I read the words "Be Thou My Vision" I heard Glad singing in my mind. Fantastic group. Many years ago I owned the tape this was on--perhaps its time to look it up again (on CD this time). I also remember that my Music Appreciation teacher (in a state school) included a track from that album (I can't remember which one) on a list of songs we were to be able to identify to pass the class.

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