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I recently read up on Al Maxey's article "Judas Iscariot"  I have excerpted the part of the article I will be referring to.

"Although some deny men have free will, I am not one of them. It is my firm conviction that God did not create a race of puppets who dance at the ends of strings held in His hands. We have the freedom to choose. God may indeed foreknow our choices (and I believe He does), but He does not predetermine them for us. Yes, our choices will result in our experiencing previously selected consequences and eternal destinations, but the outcome of our lives is determined by us -- we have been given free will. This applies also to Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew what role Judas would play in His upcoming sacrifice -- "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him" [John 6:64] -- but the decision to betray was made by Judas alone!"

Maxey makes an interesting arguement here, not referring to Judas (although his article concerning him is interesting), but concerning his ideological belief in foreknowing, choice, and predetermination.  His view seems to contradict itself.
He expresses a belief in foreknowing - God as a master being knows all present, past, and future.  Maxey makes it specific by saying that he believes God foreknows our choices.  His expression of foreknowledge is not based on speculation, God does not guess.  This is where the contradiction is seen.  Choice implies having the ability decide freely, not just reason an explanation.  If God's foreknowledge is flawless, which by Maxey' understanding it is, how can any being determine their own history.  If God knows what shall happen, then I cannot but "choose" to do what He has predicted.  By this reasoning, all choice is predetermined, therefore not actually choice.

This does not fill the whole contradiction of Maxey's belief.  There is an interesting theory about choice stating one does not choice at the moment of decision, but has made that choice long before.  Perhaps, I chose long ago, in a conscious or subconscious manner, and by that reasoning I have chosen my actions, God can foreknow them without imposing a will upon me and the action has not yet happened.  The problem with this theory is to understand that God must foreknow the events of before, after, and all that happens in my life.  Meaning without being born I would have chosen the actions spanning my entire life, or even to say in an abstract concept, I would have to have chosen my actions before the existence of God, who has always been all-knowing.

I ask for responses please, agreeing or dissenting.  Regardless, those who believe one way or the other, to provide insight to his or her opinions. 

Maybe it would be helpful to ask a different question can a God not know something? Here is the question does Jesus Christ know when the end of the world will be? When we answer no there becomes a deep theological question of free will. Can a God keep something from a God? I am awe struck at Jesus words on the cross my God why have you left me. Too is Jesus prayer not my will but your's.

The Bible never talks about free will it talks about an omnipresent God who is working his will through us. The Jewish people were destined to failure. The gentiles were destined to hope.  Judas becomes the symbol for this. It doesn't matter whether we are Gods partners or his puppets the point in the end there will be glory for those that love God.

I thank you MarkHooper for your response.  But I feel you have avoided the question altogether.  I understand that the bible does not talk about an omnipresent God who works his will through us.  Yet, in our ability to reason God assumes the power in our understanding as He who is all powerful.  Whether He uses this power or not is the object of debate.  I believe it is interesting; your statement about the symbolic meaning of Judas.   

"It doesn't matter whether we are Gods partners or his puppets"

It is alarming when people say this in response to a question of will.  Is it not just my duty to live a Christian life but also a Socratic one.  The questioning and examination of oneself and the world around him is an important part of a healthy spiritual life.  Perhaps, it is not your intent to stifle this, but the statement does dismiss the importance of defining a belief in free will versus predetermination.  Love God. Yes.  Question God. Just as important.  Faith is built through rigorous thought, not acceptance of indifference.

Thank you for your response MarkHooper, notable as it is, sidesteps the dilemma at hand.  I am sorry if you feel I speak vigilantly about this, if you do please make another post.

I ask for more people to bring their opinions, with insights to support them.  Thanks

Humans are stuck in a material world where cause must prcede effect. God is not. Is God's foreknowlege and thus predestination of our choice, the cause of our choice, or is our choice the cause of God's predestiation that we make the choice? Impossible for me to know or understand. The Bible teaches both predestination and free human choice. I accept both as true.

does God know everything? I don't know. My first reaction is yes, of course---duh, but two verses have come into my mind recently that make me wonder if His knowledge is somewhat limited--perhaps He limits it Himself.
these are the verses:
Genesis 18:20 "Then the LORD said "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not I will know."
(--so did God know before prayers of innocent victims reached His ears? I guess this verse has inspired me to pray more. I know longer think--God know what I need!!!!)
Matthew 8:10"When Jesus heard this He was astonished........" So what does that mean? He is capable of being pleasantly surprised by His children?
I don't want to make some statement of faith here--stand and give an account to my elders for heresy, but i'm somewhat curious as to the extent of God's knowledge.

Over the years, I have been a part of denominations that did and did not believe in predestination, fore knowledge, freewill, etc.  I was raised in a Methodist, then conservative, indy Presbyterian (calvinist) environment which basically believed we were predestinated for salvation or we were not (simplistic view here).  When I accepted the idea of free will, I had a conflict with the idea that if free will is true, then how can God know what we will do and can God predestine certain people to be in Heaven or Hell.  I've been CoC for 35+ yearsI'm not going to try to discuss Al's views on this because I haven't read the article since he first put it out.  I'm just going to try to tell you how I have come to view the over all issue of free will vrs predestination.  It may or may not agree with AL's but is probably somewhat close.  As I said, I would have to go back and read the article and I don't have the time right now.

My view is basically tied to the idea of God as the Creator.  God made the beginning and the end as a "linear line."  It sits in front of him start on one side and finish on the other.  Like this computer sits in front of me. Since God can view the timeline over all or at anypoint in between the beginning or end, God can allow us freewill while being able to see the results of our freewill at any point on the timeline.  He created the time line and will end the timeline.  He therefore has foreknowledge without making us puppets on strings or specifically predestinating us to Heaven or Hell.  We get there by our own actions.  Yet, at the same time, because he can look at any point on the time line from his point of view, He can say to us that he has "predestinated or pre-ordained" someone because he can see what will happen.  He can "change" his mind at anypoint (and has according to Scripture) based on what he sees and hears from us and what he wants to happen and yet we still have the free will to make the decissions that he knows we will make because of his ability to look from the outside of the line to the inside of the line (between the beginning and the end).  Of course, that can raise other questions as to the amount of actual invasion of our timeline that he does etc but those are other discussions.  The point is that this is how I have come to view this whole subject which is really probably something we will never fully understand to begin with.  I have friends on both sides at my place of employement and we have had some lively discussions on this and still not come to a conclussion!

BTW, IMO, Al is like a breath of fresh air blowing into a confined space environment (if you know what the OSHA "confined space" is  then apply that to the "church" ).  There are few topics that we disagree over and he hears from me ocassionally on the ones we do disagree on and some that we don't disagree on   We have enjoyed some friendly emails and discussion over the last few years.

If we think of God as trinity a make up of three persons but unified in one purpose all can be possible to know and to not know. God has placed a part of him in us a moral compass. God has placed a sign post a history of God interacting with man. God has placed Christ in power until the end. This is all we know beyond that is to great and expansive to explain.

God  does foreknow all things.  IMHO what we see as freewill is God choosing not to force us to follow Him.  This I believe is what our freewill is.  Yes God knows what we will choose and when we will choose it but chooses to stand back and let us have our choice - weather it is for or against Him. I am just glad I chose to be for Him. 

In the role of cause and effect, God's knowing ahead of time what I will choose is not the cause of what I will choose.  There are, it seems, many who simply do not comprehend the truth of what I just stated.  

For those who have kids, you being not nearly so perfect as God, knew many times what your young children would choose in various situations.  That in no way meant that you were the cause of their making the choice.  What you were able to do often in the lives of your young children, God can do perfectly for all men.

Quote from: Norton on Sat Dec 08, 2007 - 17:21:28
Humans are stuck in a material world where cause must prcede effect. God is not. Is God's foreknowlege and thus predestination of our choice, the cause of our choice, or is our choice the cause of God's predestiation that we make the choice? Impossible for me to know or understand. The Bible teaches both predestination and free human choice. I accept both as true.

Well said. I also think of it this way: God can accomplish His purposes no matter what I choices I make.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that Jesus gave up knowledge and even certain powers when He came to earth. "He humbled himself...." He experienced being a human without, well, cheating. He only started performing miracles when it was time to show who He was/is and always will be.

Quote from: Jeebusfopps on Fri Dec 07, 2007 - 04:59:53
I recently read up on Al Maxey's article "Judas Iscariot"  I have excerpted the part of the article I will be referring to.

"Although some deny men have free will, I am not one of them. It is my firm conviction that God did not create a race of puppets who dance at the ends of strings held in His hands. We have the freedom to choose. God may indeed foreknow our choices (and I believe He does), but He does not predetermine them for us. Yes, our choices will result in our experiencing previously selected consequences and eternal destinations, but the outcome of our lives is determined by us -- we have been given free will. This applies also to Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew what role Judas would play in His upcoming sacrifice -- "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him" [John 6:64] -- but the decision to betray was made by Judas alone!"

Maxey makes an interesting arguement here, not referring to Judas (although his article concerning him is interesting), but concerning his ideological belief in foreknowing, choice, and predetermination.  His view seems to contradict itself.
He expresses a belief in foreknowing - God as a master being knows all present, past, and future.  Maxey makes it specific by saying that he believes God foreknows our choices.  His expression of foreknowledge is not based on speculation, God does not guess.  This is where the contradiction is seen.  Choice implies having the ability decide freely, not just reason an explanation.  If God's foreknowledge is flawless, which by Maxey' understanding it is, how can any being determine their own history.  If God knows what shall happen, then I cannot but "choose" to do what He has predicted.  By this reasoning, all choice is predetermined, therefore not actually choice.

This does not fill the whole contradiction of Maxey's belief.  There is an interesting theory about choice stating one does not choice at the moment of decision, but has made that choice long before.  Perhaps, I chose long ago, in a conscious or subconscious manner, and by that reasoning I have chosen my actions, God can foreknow them without imposing a will upon me and the action has not yet happened.  The problem with this theory is to understand that God must foreknow the events of before, after, and all that happens in my life.  Meaning without being born I would have chosen the actions spanning my entire life, or even to say in an abstract concept, I would have to have chosen my actions before the existence of God, who has always been all-knowing.

I ask for responses please, agreeing or dissenting.  Regardless, those who believe one way or the other, to provide insight to his or her opinions. 

I think the devil worked in Judas life as mentioned in the bible that satan entered to him. We cannot say for sure where Judas is now; only God can say that. Judas acknowledge that Jesus was an innocent man and he hanged himself. The problem was that Judas did not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Savior of mankind so that is the problem there but who knows. In the abundance of God's mercy and love we dont know. 

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 19:33:12
In the role of cause and effect, God's knowing ahead of time what I will choose is not the cause of what I will choose.  There are, it seems, many who simply do not comprehend the truth of what I just stated.  

For those who have kids, you being not nearly so perfect as God, knew many times what your young children would choose in various situations.  That in no way meant that you were the cause of their making the choice.  What you were able to do often in the lives of your young children, God can do perfectly for all men.

This is exactly how I see it. If I, a mere human can know what someone will choose without causing that choice, surely God can do the same more perfectly.

The answer to this question can be found by asking another. "Does time exist?" All things past, present and future happen simultaneously when the concept of time is removed. The past only exists in our memory, the future exists only in our imagination. The only truly existing moment is "now". We can conceive of a future in our minds, and even fantasize about what we will do or what choices to make to achieve our goals. This could be defined as " forseeing the future", but we are still free to choose otherwise depending on the obstacles we encounter. Our future may not actually be what we originally conceived it to be. Even in his confusion, Judas still had a choice.

Quote from: Jeebusfopps on Fri Dec 07, 2007 - 04:59:53
I If God knows what shall happen, then I cannot but "choose" to do what He has predicted.  By this reasoning, all choice is predetermined, therefore not actually choice.

That is the common error that people objecting to free will choice typically make.  That is just backward.  God being all-knowing and incapable of lying, cannot but predict what we have chosen?  All choice is not predetermined, it is preknown. Knowing is not causing.  It is amazing how whole branches of bad theology come to be built up based upon this mistake.

It may be IMPOSSIBLE for God to do His work without picking certain people to do certain jobs.  By "preserving" Pharoah God did him a favor so that he could carry out His will.  However, God never picked any person to go to heaven or burn in hell.  Judas is called the Son of Perdition and in Psalm 41 it is prophesied that this "familiar friend" would not triumph over or ALARM Jesus: this word means "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" and Christ outlawed if for the church in the wilderness. The Qahal, synagogue or church was INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and discussing the Word: the synagogue never changed and the ekklesia used by Jesus and "synagogue" used by Paul makes doubly sure that "there was no praise service in the synagogue ever never."

The Judas Bag significaltly was a BOX FOR CARRYING the mouthpieces of wind instruments: we have real pictures and the Judas Bag is ALWAYS attached to a flute case. The singers and players were usually usually "drunk on wine." In the case of Judas we know that he was Judas the Sicarri. That marked him as a hashash smoking dagger man or traitor.  The spotted flute case on the left "man" has a little box attached to the right. The OAX GOAD was to help them stand up and as a phallic symbol or "staff." 


Psalm 41 makes it certain that it was a MUSICAL MOCKING attack as well as a sexual assualt as the "dogs" compassed Him about. Paul using SELF-pleasing in Romans 15 outlaws ALL of the theatrical or hypocritical arts as does the "laded burden" used by Jesus.  That was based on the statement that Jesus had suffered REPROACHES which means to "expose his private parts."

Hab. 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!
Hab. 2:16 Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory.
Hab. 2:17 For the violence of Lebanon shall cover thee, and the spoil of beasts, which made them afraid, because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.
Hab. 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
Hab. 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Hab. 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

ALL pagans believed that their instruments could SPEAK to them.

The Dead Sea Scroll verson makes is an attack of the Levitical musicians who served Dionysus and other members of the Egyptian trinity. When Jesus accused the MEN of being like CHILDREN who piped hoping to get Him to sing and dance this identified the DIONYSUS INITIATION which was sexual and part of the musical/sexual Abomination of Desolation in the temple well documented by Second Maccabees.  In VICTORY Jesus would use the PIPES and LYRES of his LIPS and HEART.

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept
        and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;
        that the scripture might be fulfilled

Jesus picked Judas based on HIS NATURE which implicates all of the New Wineskin or Vineyard musical worship which worship is defines of Lucifer called "the singing and harp playing prostitue" in the garden of Eden: Paul says that EVE was wholly seduced and the SERPENT is well defined as a musical enchanter(ess) and Adam WENT WILLINGLY.

http://www.piney.com/Psalm.109.html

Psalm 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Psa 22:6
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, Psa 22:7

Leag (g3932) law-ag'; a prim. root; to deride; by impl. (as if imitating a foreigner) to speak unintelligibly: - have in derision, laugh (to scorn), mock (on), stammering.
Laeg (g3934) law-ayg'; from 3932; a buffoon; also a foreigner: - mocker, stammering

AND MUCH MORE.

Psalm 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

    Tephillah (g8605) tef-il-law'; from 6419; intercession, supplication; by impl. a hymn: - prayer.

Psalm 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

    [8] fiant dies eius pauci et episcopatum eius accipiat alter

    Epi-scopa-tus , u-s, m. [id.] ,

    I. the office and dignity of a bishop, episcopate, 

    Ac.1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and, His bishoprick let another take.

    Pequddah (h6486) pek-ood-daw'; fem. pass. part. of 6485; visitation (in many senses, chiefly official): - account, (that have the) charge, custody, that which... laid up, numbers, office (-r), ordering, oversight, / prison, reckoning, visitation.

    Jb.10:12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds,
        and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

The Judas Bag is used only once so no one was carrying around their flutes. The SOP is used only once. It has the same ROOT meaning as PSALLO which means to "grind the enemy into a fine powder." When Jesus MARKED him with the so-called musical word SATAN CAME INTO HIM. Isn't that amazing?