Bad home schools

Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 13:20:04

Kevin: I get the impression that your \"gut feeling\" tells you this is a bad situation. Or, you wouldn't be worried about it and asking us. Sounds like the mother has taken on too many foster children and isn't able to take care for them for some reason. If she requires the older children to completely skip schoolwork to look after foster kids, that's not good. The mother may be sick or overwhelmed or on drugs/alcohol or have financial problems, etc. If it were me, I would try to make friends with the family to see if the mom needs some sort of help. I know this will sound extreme, but I think of that mom who was homeschooling and very mentally ill and eventually drowned the kids in the bathtub. There had to be signs something was wrong but everyone must have looked the other way. The only way to find out is to try to get to know the family better. You should think about calling social services, too, if you see that it is really a bad situation. Sounds like this mom and her kids need a Christian friend, like you. I will pray for them....

Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 16:42:03

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You need to know more about home schooling in your area. What are the requirements? Is there government oversight in your area? [/quote]

Here are the requirements for homeschooling in Oklahoma

...Nothing

You don't have to have any qualifications, you don't have to test the children, you don't have to keep any records or us any particular curriculum or even notify the state that you're homeschooling. The state has no oversight whatsoever.

This leaves the Oklahoma homeschool community at (I think) great risk for abuse. We've had recent front-page situations of physical and sexual abuse; although the 'bad guys' are only a tiny fraction of the homeschooling community, even a few hurt children are too many. We've got no protections at all for the children. Surprise, surprise-it is a reflection of the low value Oklahoma places on the education of all of our children.

Tulsa has a strong homeschool support group; I don't know that OKC has any.

Kevin, I think you need to listen to your heart on this one. There need not be abuse or even neglect-but ALL children still have a right to education, and the parents may not be providing that here.

Kari.

4kidsandadog · Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:45:09

I am definitely interested in a discussion of the \"True Love Waits\" program... My daughter isn't old enough for it yet, but I want to know all I can before we get there!

Patricia, I appreciated your comments about youth ministers and \"instant ownership\" of teens and about how to effectively minister to them without causing them to break from parental authority. I think it is a difficult thing, but a necessary thing!

Karen

janine · Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:02:08

So, Kevin, you would never shower at the same time as the boys?

That means you've left a group of boys unsupervised and naked together. With soap. And wet towels to sting each other with. And a pack mentality able to break out without you there to check it.

Wouldn't the better way be to take all of your boys through the open showers with you at the same time?

Bon Voyage · Fri Jan 31, 2003 - 12:40:36

I was watching a special on one of the Discovery brand of Channels and they were investigating the differences between men and women.

Through brain scans they pretty much concluded that some generalizations we have made are quite true. Also, it showed that men are specific task oriented while women can multi-task. Women could use both parts of the brain simultaneously while men couldn't go between right and left very easily.

As far as reading for boys, I don't know if that is true. I was reading before kindegarten.

spurly · Thu Jan 23, 2003 - 22:55:19

Just a question for homeschool advocates:

Many homeschool parents do a great job giving their students an education at home.

However, many parents have good intentions, but can not handle the responsibility of giving their students a good education. I know of one such family, and their students are getting further and further behind the public school students. If you knew them would you confront the family and encourage them to get help with their home school or put their students in private or public school?

What do you think?

Kevin

dgdodd · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 10:50:11

You may consider appealing to the parents from an angle of deep concern about their children's future. Their children will have a challenge functioning in society if they don't get a basic educational foundation. Or, you could approach it by discussing state regulations or standards. I could be wrong but it is my understanding that, unfortunately, there are no rules that say \"If your child is not learning, you have to put them back into public schools.\"

Sounds challenging -
Damaris

janine · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 16:05:19

My sister and her husband have homeschooled 3 boys all their lives, since a teachers' strike interrupted the first boy's kindergarten and 1st grade --

initially thru no public school available, then with the school's inability to handle him when school started again, because he was lightyears ahead of the other children and unwilling to dumb down and hold back.

The few years I homeschooled my older two we were very unstructured in our methods. On a typical day they might have read library books of their own choosing, watched educational TV of my choosing, used math without knowing it by figuring recipes out. Their cousins have been a bit more structured... they have a written lesson plan!

Both sets of kids would describe something very unlike what you expect a school day to be.

But, if you do get to know the family, spend time in the home watching interpersonal dynamics, and you are confident your initial worry is valid...

Speak to the mom - not alone, have a woman in the church she trusts there - and present her with some phone numbers, contact people from play groups, local chapters of home education organizations (both secular and Christian), etc. Help her find some tools.

All the while praying.

patriciaredstone · Sat Jan 25, 2003 - 01:33:37

I'm very interested to know what you discover. By the way, thank you Kevin for putting children first. Your committment goes against the grain of society and I think reflects the highest priority of God.

Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:38:09

Patricia: I appreciate your insights on homeschooling very much. I have a new understanding of it thru you. I made some comments on the homework thread if you get a chance to read them and respond back.

I also had a bad experience with a college age male youth worker (around 21) asking my son (then eleven) to spend the night at his dorm room. Of course, my son wasn't allowed to do such a thing. I wish my church would establish a policy that disallowed a church worker asking a child any such thing. This worker still emails my son...maybe innocently but it worries me.

I was puzzled by your comments on True Love Waits. Our church just did this. I was so thrilled that my daughter and her friends attended. I took them out for a \"girls only\" lunch after one session. Their comments were interesting (and a little scary, too!) Evidently, some time (at True Love Waits)was spent on discussing that all premarital sex was dangerous and inappropriate (including the kind that Clinton popularized). One girl (not my daughter) said she didn't know until this session that you could get diseases that way, too.

After another session, my daughter approached me and wanted to tell me about how they had discussed abortion and showed the kids pictures of the developing babies. She was so surprised at how perfectly formed the baby was at three months in the womb.

I just wondered what you thought the \"cons\" were to True Love Waits.
Thanks, Shorty

spurly · Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:03:29

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am definitely interested in a discussion of the \"True Love Waits\" program... My daughter isn't old enough for it yet, but I want to know all I can before we get there!

Patricia, I appreciated your comments about youth ministers and \"instant ownership\" of teens and about how to effectively minister to them without causing them to break from parental authority. I think it is a difficult thing, but a necessary thing!

Karen[/quote]
Being a youth minister, I do not know many youth ministers who try to encourage teens to break from their parental authority figures.

Do we encourage them to develop their own faith? You bet. Do we encourage them to walk their own journey with God? You bet. Do we encourage them to rebel against their parents? No way.

I am constantly encouraging students to honor and obey their parents in all aspects of their life, unless their parents tell them to do something that goes against God's revealed word. (I.E., tell someone on the phone that Dad is not home, when in actuality he just doesn't want to talk on the phone).

For instance, we are taking our youth ministry on a missions trip to Jamaica this summer. One of our girls wanted to attend very bad, but her parents were afraid to let her go. My advice to her: on this one you need to listen to your parents and put yourself under their authority. God did say to \"Go\", and maybe you can \"Go\" right now to places your parents don't object to. When you get older, if you want to go on a mission trip, then you can. But right now you need to listen to them.

It seems unfortunate that you have run into youth ministers who want to cause your students to rebel against you. I apologize for them, though I do not know them.

spurly · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 15:13:39

The way some people sound in their posts, it seems like they don't think there could ever be anything such as a \"bad home school\".

While the majority of parents I know who choose this option do an incredible job, some of them do not. Some are homeschooling for the wrong reasons (i.e. student won't try and is failing at school, so they take him/her out and claim they are doing school, when in actuality they are not; abusive parents who don't want their students in a public environment so they won't be found out, etc.). Others do it for the right reasons, but don't have the ability to do a good job with it.

Homeschool students of parents that care and have the ability to provide their students with an education are at least at grade level, if not far above their peers. The others are not.

I just don't want the others to slip through the cracks.

Kevin

patriciaredstone · Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 19:06:54

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 27 2003,2:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin, I can tell by what you have said that you are a thoughtful youth minister and you are using your head when it comes to dealing with others children. I think that is all we can ask of a youth minister. There will be moments when the youth minister's judgement doesn't mesh with a particular parent's judgement but that is expected. You just have to work through those situations.
Keep showing those teens Jesus and I know that the Spirit will guide you.
grace, Julie[/quote]
What Julie said :D

spurly · Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:52:02

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Jan. 28 2003,10:38)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You've never encountered you doing anything inappropriate with the boys either. I'm not saying you ever would do such, and I'm not saying that a group of boys you supervise at camp would ever do anything inappropriate in the shower.

I just was wondering about the balance in your mind between protecting yourself from liability versus protecting the youngsters in your charge from victimization while they're most vulnerable.[/quote]
Janine,

If I found out about something like that happening I would deal with it. However, the appropriate place to deal with it, IMHO, is not while you are in the shower with them. That is very inappropriate.

Kevin

patriciaredstone · Fri Jan 31, 2003 - 12:00:07

Thanks for the update, Kevin. It is good to know these boys are safe.

Language arts are to boys as math and sciences are to girls. Are they undesirable? is there peer-group pressure not to learn these. You've heard all of the arguments by educators in behalf of girls and how our society encourages them to fail at math. I only wish we could balance this concern for girls and math with at least a bit of concern for boys and language arts!. Is math, generally, more difficult for girls and language arts, generally, more difficult for boys? OR are the developmental stages to best learn these disciplines different for girls and boys? While girls are developing communication skills at a young age, boys are developing spatial skills. From birth to about fourth grade, girls talk to communicate and boys throw things to communicate. Many educators think it is a waste of time and even destructive to force boys to learn to read before 9 years old. In many european schools, before age 9 math is taught orally through organised group games and art projects -- this european method, which prepares students for physics and higher math earlier than conventional methods, appeals to both young boys and girls and is finally gaining some ground in the US.

Personally, I think boys and girls should be seperated until high school where they finally reach balance.

You know, Kevin, you are a wonderful youth minister! If you were at our church, I think we'd be more involved.

janine · Sat Feb 01, 2003 - 11:36:05

My tendency to run screaming from anything math-like may come from my having, through a handful of late-school years, incompetent teachers, and from being lumped together with some of the worst discipline problems ever to sport acne and tight jeans.

There was simply no teaching going on in my math classes after the one year of Geometry.

Now, my daughter and older son excell in math-related stuff, all the higher maths and Physics and Trigonometry and Calculi you can get, and the 10-yr-old is in a special Gifted & Talented program for math. Go figure.

James Rondon · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 01:06:29

Good question, Kevin.

I have three boys, and the oldest is now 6 and being schooled at home, by my wife. She is not a seasoned pro, but is handling it well so far. I guess, by some people's standards, she might be accused of doing a poor job... But, by others, she might be accused of doing a great job... (by the way, by most people's standards, the public schools are doing a very poor job!).

My oldest son is the prime home-school candidate... He is a high-need, high-maintenance student. Without that one-on-one, I don't know where he would be.

I would agree with you that some parents are in over their heads, and some don't take this responsibility seriously... But some parents may be accused of this, that are actually doing a great job. They are giving it all that they have, and are growing into the job every day... They may have a special needs child, or may have other factors that would give them a low-rating as teachers, by some's standards, but they are giving much more to their children than the public school system could ever give.

Father in Heaven, be with all of those parents that have undertaken this grave responsibility... Help them to love their children, teach their children, and nurture their children. Let them seek your guidance, and focus upon your truth. Let their goals be to bring-up godly men and woman, and let them always keep that in their remembrance. Give them the encouragement and the support that they need. Father, may the Spirit of your dear Son dwell in their hearts, and in each of our hearts. Indeed, let us all endeavor to bring our children up in your nurture, and admonition... In Jesus name...

James Rondon

patriciaredstone · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 11:19:03

Kevin,

I have to laugh at the scene you described :p because I remember my son saying the same thing after being asked by a teacher friend of mine --- Q: \"What are you studying right now?\" A: \"Nothing.\" \"Well, what is the emphasis of your studies this year.\" A: \"I don't know\"-- and this after a vigorous day of studies, reviews and essays! Boys, in particular middle school age boys, are notorious for this kind of thing. Boys in public and private middle schools will do that too.

I even overheard my son boasting to some boys on his swim team that all he does is play computer games all day. What he was doing is expressing a deep longing not the reality that is his life. In truth, we have a very strict computer game policy. He is only allowed to play computer games on weekends, and then only for one hour a day, and then only if he has earned every single minute by playing over the required period of time on his violin. So he gets on average an hour to an hour and half a week. And no first-shooter games.

What my son was saying (and I do speak middle-school boy language and am a qualified interpreter) is describe his recovery from surgery a couple of months ago: \"While the rest of you chumps were having to study in school, my parents let me play computer games in bed until my eyeballs fell out, and I LOVED it! and long for it now every day of my life.\"

I have no doubt that there are some home schooling parents doing a lousy job of educating their children, but I have never personally known one. My son's best friend -- also a middle schooler -- does the same thing when I ask him what he's studying, says he doesn't know (James' mother is an accredited college professor and an education resource specialist!), says he hates his lessons (truth interpreted: I love school, but it's not cool to say you're crazy about civics (James WILL be a lawyer, if I ever saw one in the development stages) and, for a middle school boy, it is anathema to admit to any living soul that he prefers to be at home with mom than chumming around with his pals at school.

[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Jan. 24 2003,11:23--]

winky · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 15:52:05

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The way some people sound in their posts, it seems like they don't think there could ever be anything such as a \"bad home school\".[/quote]

I get that impression too. I mean, we all agree that not all public schools and not all private schools are doing a great job. Can we not even consider the possibility that Kevin's situation might be a case of a home school not doing a great job?

spurly · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 19:36:18

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Jan. 24 2003,3:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin [[ The way some people sound in their posts, it seems like they don't think there could ever be anything such as a \"bad home school\". ]]

As I said in my previous post, Kevin,

[[ I have no doubt that there are some home schooling parents doing a lousy job of educating their children, but I have never personally known one. ]]

This may, in truth, be a bad home school situation. But I think you need to be very careful as you assimilate information (especially from the boys). You need to know more about home schooling in your area. What are the requirements? Is there government oversight in your area? I suggest you contact the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) for more information about how you should proceed. Although I can tell that you care deeply about children, there are tell-tale signs in your posts that you do not have a clear understanding that there are many ways to approach homeschooling. For instance you say:

[[ Homeschool students of parents that care and have the ability to provide their students with an education are at least at grade level, if not far above their peers. The others are not. ]]

Simply not true. I did not teach my son to read until he was over 8 years old. I was following a european pedagogy long accepted by renowned child development psycologists. Teaching children to read who are not at a point of readiness leads to learning disabilites and a lifelong distaste for learning. This has been proven by our school system which seems to accept that it is normal to produce boys who hate to read.

Many homeschooling parents choose not to teach reproductive sciences until the children are much older than the accepted age of readiness in the school system. These children who are not bombarded with sex before puberty are more likely to develop later and to appear less \"savvy\" than their public schooled peers. Children who are kept home tend to mature later. Doctors and child development psychologists consider late sexual development to be healthier.

My son is not as physically developed as his 14 year-old public school peers, but he's devouring Les Miserables by Victor Hugo while they're devouring Playboy and skateboarding magazines. As a home schooling parent, I think it's not a bad deal altogether!

Also many home schooling parents adopt a pedagogy called Unschooling. I tried it, but it doesn't work for my child (he likes structure, I don't, so I adapt) Some children thrive on unschooling.

As long as the boys are not being abused or neglected I would back off until I had more information. Signs I would look for is 1) are they clean? 2) do they have coats and shoes that will keep their feet warm and dry 3) are they sick? do they appear to be lathargic? are their eyes red? dark circles? or do they have a healthy glow? 4) do they play with their peers in a safe and respectful way ... do they make threats, hit them alot or tease and try to intimidate? 5) do they make inappropriate sexual comments to their peers or adults? 6) do they duck and cover their heads with their hands when their parents exhibit anger? Do they avoid eye contact?

Again, please understand that this is just my opinion from the information and specifics you have shared from which I do not percieve any problem or danger. I don't mean to be judgemental. I'm trying to give you a perspective that might deserve some consideration.[/quote]
Patricia,

Thanks for the advice. I now see what you are trying to say. The boys don't show any sign of abuse, and they are definitely developing later than their public school peers. I will ask more questions to try to find out what is going on.

Kevin

Sat Jan 25, 2003 - 09:57:25

Patricia, please be careful about how you portray children who go to public school. I am hearing from you that 14 year old boys who are homeschooled have more appropriate interests than 14 year old boys who go to public school. I have two boys who went to public school and at 14 they weren't reading Playboy and skater magazines. Please think before you portray others children in a negative way. My boys are good people who developed just fine in the public school system...in fact, were a little late jumping into the dating scene...fine with me. They are now 18 and 20 and anyone would be proud to call them their sons.
grace, Julie

patriciaredstone · Sat Jan 25, 2003 - 11:01:40

Julie,

I apologise for appearing to include ALL boys (including yours) when I said \"his peers.\" Of course, I can't even know who all of his peers are any more than I can know who your boys are, so it was a bad word choice.

What I meant to express is that he contrasts with \"his\" peers, like the teens at church who -- as soon as the youth minister left the room -- wanted to know if he liked oral sex or was bisexual or gay (Then, after this happens, the youth minister lays a guilt trip on him for not coming to Bible Class more often!)

Also, I was contrasting him to the teen boys in our family who escape up to their rooms during family gatherings to look at pornographic material.

But he does have friends who are publically schooled. One is basically where he's at developmentally. His mother likes him to spend time with my son because the child needs peers who do not constantly accuse him of being gay. My son has this experience with the children in our neighborhood too who are all publically schooled. There is a stigma in our culture that smart, articulate boys MUST be gay.

I have seen much variance in the nature of schooled children, but I have never heard of a home schooled child ridiculing others or baiting them with sexual banter and innuendo. This anti-social behaviour appears to me to be learned at schools.

patriciaredstone · Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:05:30

Shorty -- Thank you for your response! I think it is a very good idea to establish some church policy to address this problem with youth ministers behaving as if they have instant ownership over the children in the church. Such a policy should begin with rules that will protect the children from abuse and to protect the youth minister from accusations of abuse. Rules, guidelines and a system of oversight will support youth ministries not hinder them.

Now about True Love Waits ... \"Horrible\" is probably too strong a word. I'm tempted to go back and edit that post. I'm afraid I've opened a can of worms. If I explain my complaints about TLW, it may cause a passionate debate on the board that will surely be locked up sooner than the abortion discussions.

I'll think about it. If I decide to talk about this, I'll start it on a different thread in the Family forum ... and maybe under a different name! :help:

Thanks again for your comments!

spurly · Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:15:09

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Shorty -- Thank you for your response! I think it is a very good idea to establish some church policy to address this problem with youth ministers behaving as if they have instant ownership over the children in the church. Such a policy should begin with rules that will protect the children from abuse and to protect the youth minister from accusations of abuse. Rules, guidelines and a system of oversight will support youth ministries not hinder them.[/quote]
What you are talking about seems to be common sense. Many churches are advocating a lot of new policies to protect both the students and those who work with them.

My aunts church recently installed windows in the doors of all the classrooms and the deacons will pass through the halls during Sunday School and look in on the classes. Do they do this because they don't trust the teachers? No. They do it because they want to help protect them and the students.

When someone wants to work with the youth at our church, and many other churches, background checks are done to make sure that the person can be trusted to work with the students. I hope all churches will be doing this before too long.

I used to have students come over to my house, but since I have gotten older (thirty-five now), I have stopped doing that unless they come in groups, and other adults are always welcome. I also no longer have them stay at my house overnight - even in groups. They have their own homes they need to stay in.

When I am taking students to or from church, I try my best not to be by myself with a student, especially a female student. If I have to go out of my way to make this possible, I will do that. Most of the time, if students need a ride I encourage parents who have other students to pick them up or take them home.

Also, while at camps or retreats where they have open showers I never use the showers at the same time the students are in the showers. It is just not smart. (At Junior High Camps this is not a problem because they don't shower anyway :p )

These are all just common sense things that any one can put into practice. If your student ministry does not have policies like this - they need to look at getting them.

Kevin

janine · Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:38:52

You've never encountered you doing anything inappropriate with the boys either. I'm not saying you ever would do such, and I'm not saying that a group of boys you supervise at camp would ever do anything inappropriate in the shower.

I just was wondering about the balance in your mind between protecting yourself from liability versus protecting the youngsters in your charge from victimization while they're most vulnerable.

spurly · Fri Jan 31, 2003 - 09:28:42

Patriciaredstone:

I followed your advice, and what good advice it was. Yesterday when I talked to these students about their home school situation I pressed further than in weeks before and finally got to the truth. They actually do a lot of work - with their parents and with other people's parents (when their mom does not feel comfortable with a certain subject). Their math and science far exceeds other students in their grade level, even though their English is lagging a little behind - but that may just be because they are boys. Boys, as a general rule, don't care much for studying English.

Thought you would like to know.

Kevin

patriciaredstone · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 02:21:38

James,

As the parent of a very high-maintenance home schooled son, I appreciate your comments and your prayer SO MUCH!

Parents generally know what is best for their children and do what they can. Heaven knows the school systems have failed our children enough -- it's time to give the parents a chance to explore their own success and failures.

After six years of home schooling our son might be going back to school next year. We have found a wonderful new public charter (in its 5th year) that is getting national and international press for their unconventional approach -- they are reinventing the American high school -- and for their academic success rate.

We'll see ... he might not make the cut. They have only 140 places in the 9th grade for 1,600 applicants!

nerdneh · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 12:31:31

Kevin, if the situation is really as you say, and not tempered by any of the thoughtful insights Patricia has shared, perhaps you could encourage this mother to be active in the Home Schooling larger group and thus subject herself to feedback from other home-schoolers. I know in Florence there are several homeschoolers that meet at a church building about every two weeks to do some joint exercises together, plus providing the socializing that is important. These groups usually have some persons who are on top of the needs, and your parent may find this helpful. It's a good first step anyway. The only thing wrong with confrontation, and sometimes it is all you can do, is that once it is done, you seldom have another option.

patriciaredstone · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 15:51:39

Kevin [[ The way some people sound in their posts, it seems like they don't think there could ever be anything such as a \"bad home school\". ]]

As I said in my previous post, Kevin,

[[ I have no doubt that there are some home schooling parents doing a lousy job of educating their children, but I have never personally known one. ]]

This may, in truth, be a bad home school situation. But I think you need to be very careful as you assimilate information (especially from the boys). You need to know more about home schooling in your area. What are the requirements? Is there government oversight in your area? I suggest you contact the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) for more information about how you should proceed. Although I can tell that you care deeply about children, there are tell-tale signs in your posts that you do not have a clear understanding that there are many ways to approach homeschooling. For instance you say:

[[ Homeschool students of parents that care and have the ability to provide their students with an education are at least at grade level, if not far above their peers. The others are not. ]]

Simply not true. I did not teach my son to read until he was over 8 years old. I was following a european pedagogy long accepted by renowned child development psycologists. Teaching children to read who are not at a point of readiness leads to learning disabilites and a lifelong distaste for learning. This has been proven by our school system which seems to accept that it is normal to produce boys who hate to read.

Many homeschooling parents choose not to teach reproductive sciences until the children are much older than the accepted age of readiness in the school system. These children who are not bombarded with sex before puberty are more likely to develop later and to appear less \"savvy\" than their public schooled peers. Children who are kept home tend to mature later. Doctors and child development psychologists consider late sexual development to be healthier.

My son is not as physically developed as his 14 year-old public school peers, but he's devouring Les Miserables by Victor Hugo while they're devouring Playboy and skateboarding magazines. As a home schooling parent, I think it's not a bad deal altogether!

Also many home schooling parents adopt a pedagogy called Unschooling. I tried it, but it doesn't work for my child (he likes structure, I don't, so I adapt) Some children thrive on unschooling.

As long as the boys are not being abused or neglected I would back off until I had more information. Signs I would look for is 1) are they clean? 2) do they have coats and shoes that will keep their feet warm and dry 3) are they sick? do they appear to be lathargic? are their eyes red? dark circles? or do they have a healthy glow? 4) do they play with their peers in a safe and respectful way ... do they make threats, hit them alot or tease and try to intimidate? 5) do they make inappropriate sexual comments to their peers or adults? 6) do they duck and cover their heads with their hands when their parents exhibit anger? Do they avoid eye contact?

Again, please understand that this is just my opinion from the information and specifics you have shared from which I do not percieve any problem or danger. I don't mean to be judgemental. I'm trying to give you a perspective that might deserve some consideration.

[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Jan. 24 2003,4:13--]

gbShorty · Fri Jan 24, 2003 - 19:10:33

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]As long as the boys are not being abused or neglected I would back off until I had more information. Signs I would look for is 1) are they clean? 2) do they have coats and shoes that will keep their feet warm and dry 3) are they sick? do they appear to be lathargic? are their eyes red? dark circles? or do they have a healthy glow? 4) do they play with their peers in a safe and respectful way ... do they make threats, hit them alot or tease and try to intimidate? 5) do they make inappropriate sexual comments to their peers or adults? 6) do they duck and cover their heads with their hands when their parents exhibit anger? Do they avoid eye contact?[/quote]
Great comments, everybody. I didn't realize how little I understood homeschooling until all these posts. Patricia's comments: re: signs of abuse (listed above are a great checklist). It may not be a youth worker's job to check for such but the youth worker may be all some kids have. Hopefully, abuse is not the issue. Like Kari says, though, denying an education is abuse in and of itself. Really wish you luck on this one, Spurly!

4kidsandadog · Sat Jan 25, 2003 - 05:57:29

Patricia,

Thanks for your most eloquent response to Kevin's questions!! While it is admirable for him to be concerned about the education of the boys, as you pointed out, education comes in all shapes and sizes. My just-turned 7yo son is also one of those who when compared to other boys, seems \"behind,\" but we waited till this year to introduce him to reading. He finally was showing the interest. What a difference to see him enjoy learning to read as opposed to dreading it (as when I attempted it earlier). I was glad to see you mention unschooling, as well. There may be a host of reasons these boys appear to be lagging behind public schooled kids, and even if they are, there may not be anything \"wrong\" with it. Because of all the research out there that shows many homeschooled kids are ahead of their public schooled peers, we often expect that to be the case. But kids are different, families are different.... we have different priorities. Just because in X grade they are teaching Y, doesn't mean I will teach that to my child when they are that age. Some homeschoolers place a higher priority on developing their child's character. As studies with unschooling have shown, when the child wants to learn something, he can generally learn it in much less the time it would take in a school setting. There are so many things our children learn from us without us ever opening a textbook.

Ooooo, if I go on, I'll never stop. :blush:

Karen

Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:31:34

Patricia:
Re: True Love Waits
I understand not wanting to get into a \"passionate\" debate. Or wanting to think about it first!

Have a nice day, Shorty

Sun Jan 26, 2003 - 13:55:46

Patricia, I am sorry that this has been your son's experience. You can move here. Our congregation is pretty much mixed 50/50 homeschooled and public schooled and we all get along great. We are very supportive of each other. My husband who is a public school counselor is also the counselor for the homeschoolers. We work together to make it work for all of us. I want this forum to be a place that instead of picking sides...we band together and share ideas about family and walk the journey together. We don't have to be against each other. grace, Julie

Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:51:18

Kevin, I can tell by what you have said that you are a thoughtful youth minister and you are using your head when it comes to dealing with others children. I think that is all we can ask of a youth minister. There will be moments when the youth minister's judgement doesn't mesh with a particular parent's judgement but that is expected. You just have to work through those situations.
Keep showing those teens Jesus and I know that the Spirit will guide you.
grace, Julie

janine · Wed Jan 29, 2003 - 12:45:05

Alas, so true.:p

I'm sure I'd get a lot less respect in the nude. :D

On the other hand, stretchy purple velvet garners me lots of respect & deference. Or so I noticed at Christmas time.

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