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      On the CBS local News the other evening, it was reported that a woman whose blender went haywire and splattered some of its ingredients onto the wall, saw in the splattered ingredients a profile of "The Blessed Virgin Mary.

I saw a Holstein with a Mickey Mouse on her side.  (Disney bought her I think)   I've seen pictures of famous people like Elvis on stuff.  We have all played the 'look at the clouds' game and see stuff.   Psychiatrists use ink spots to find out what their patients "see".    Shapes that look kind of like something are not unusual and are in fact natural and expected.   Placing divine significance on the thing is not inherent in the object itself but a fabrication from the viewer's mind.   Though, I wouldn't demonize them for doing so.  I expect them to see what they see.  I would however want to take them aside and explain the Way more truthfully.

People see what they WANT to see.

I see dead people.

Quote from: zoonance on Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 08:05:34
I saw a Holstein with a Mickey Mouse on her side.  (Disney bought her I think)   I've seen pictures of famous people like Elvis on stuff.  We have all played the 'look at the clouds' game and see stuff.   Psychiatrists use ink spots to find out what their patients "see".    Shapes that look kind of like something are not unusual and are in fact natural and expected.   Placing divine significance on the thing is not inherent in the object itself but a fabrication from the viewer's mind.   Though, I wouldn't demonize them for doing so.  I expect them to see what they see.  I would however want to take them aside and explain the Way more truthfully.

Well said, brother.

—Buff.

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37If the Roman Catholic apparatus is what Jesus founded, why did Mary appear over an Orthodox structure?

Well, if the apparition is real, why *wouldn't* God have his Mother appear anywhere he pleases?

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37I worked with psychiatric patients for 34 years, and I have seen hundreds of them who persistently maintained a delusional belief in spite of evidence to the contrary.  . . .

    I claim that all of those who have allegedly seen or been in the presence of "The Blessed Virgin Mary"  since her passing 2,000 years ago are suffering from delusions.

The problem here as you should well know is that psychological delusions of the patients you observed and mass sightings are not the same thing.  With your purported background you should have enough sense to make a more rational distinction than this superficial tripe.

A psychological delusion is an unhealthy attempt of the mind to balance extreme psychological disequilibrium--it, of course, exacerbates the problem, but is nonetheless essentially a survival mechanism.

Mass sightings do not offer the same psychological function--unless, of course, you want to provide the innumerable specific analyses by which you can then demonstrate that each person claiming such visions are, in fact, suffering a psychological delusion.

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37And that includes the Fatima and Lourdes sightings, the stories of which will curl your hair.  . . .  Example:  One of the children in the Fatima fairytale, Jacinta, who died in 1920, was supposedly exhumed in 1935 and again in 1951, and her body was found incorrupt both times!

Do you have evidence that supports your apparent contention that the exhumed body was a) not that of Jacinta, or b) was actually corrupt (or had been non-miraculously preserved from corruption by mere human means)?

As one apparently seeking to dispel mass "delusions," it does not appear to me you're doing a very good job of rationally demonstrating, via evidence, that the purported "delusions" are, in fact, delusional.

(Please note: I'm reacting to your bigoted ranting and am not myself claiming that any of the Marian apparitions you note are real.  If you're going to react to mass sightings, you don't do it by ranting in kind.)

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37But getting back to the Egypt sightings, if the actual form of Mary appeared over the dome, we must then inquire:  Since God's Son is the answer to all of our trials and troubles and frustrations and questions, why would God send the Son's earthly mother to appear over a church's dome instead of His Son?  After all, in this final era, God's principal informant to humankind is His Son, not the Son's mother-as per heaven's testimony.

Read your Scripture: why would God send John the Baptist instead of just sending Jesus?  Why is God going to send the two prophets of Revelation instead of Jesus?

God uses messengers all the time.

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37Furthermore, in spite of God’s granting Mary the unique favor of bearing His Son, she is not now, never was, nor ever will be, a mediator between God and man.

You know, I find this rant hilarious every time I hear it: No Roman Catholic or Orthodox teaching or oral prayer EVER makes Mary the Mediator between God and Man that Jesus is.  This is a false charged drummed up by rabid Romophobes who would prefer that it be true so they have something to rant on.

A dear friend of mine was praying to Mary one day when a young Palestinian looking woman appeared to him and said, "I'm sorry, I think you have me confused with my Son. You should pray to Him."

Of course, this event radically changed my brother's prayer life.  Thankfully, God though looks on our hearts.  If our hearts are right with God, He'll eventually get our heads right!  And thank the Lord that relationship with God is not dependant upon us having all of our theology right; rather it's dependant upon God's love for us!

If the event you describe is true (and I don't mean true in the simple sense of it happened as described, but that the apparition was truly Mary), and if your friend (what's his name? can I talk to him?) was indeed praying to Mary as to God, then she was right to correct him.

Quote from: CDHealy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 11:59:06

The problem here as you should well know is that psychological delusions of the patients you observed and mass sightings are not the same thing.  With your purported background you should have enough sense to make a more rational distinction than this superficial tripe.

A psychological delusion is an unhealthy attempt of the mind to balance extreme psychological disequilibrium--it, of course, exacerbates the problem, but is nonetheless essentially a survival mechanism.

Mass sightings do not offer the same psychological function--unless, of course, you want to provide the innumerable specific analyses by which you can then demonstrate that each person claiming such visions are, in fact, suffering a psychological delusion.

As to your "mass sightings," perhaps you should read again what I wrote.  Take note: 

      No one living on earth today knows what Jesus' mother looked like.  And her physical facial features are not described in scripture.  Consequently, no one is able to authenticate any of the numerous "sightings

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________________
Sightings of the "Blessed Virgin Mary" 

      On the CBS local News the other evening, it was reported that a woman whose blender went haywire and splattered some of its ingredients onto the wall, saw in the splattered ingredients a profile of "The Blessed Virgin Mary.

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:10:37
    I claim that all of those who have allegedly seen or been in the presence of "The Blessed Virgin Mary

On April 16, 1879, Bernadette -- or Sister Marie-Bernard, as she was known within her order -- died in the Sainte Croix (Holy Cross) Infirmary of the Convent of Saint-Gildard. She was thirty-five.

St. Bernadette was born at Lourdes, France. Her parents were very poor and she herself was in poor health. One Thursday, February 11, 1858, when she was sent with her younger sister and a friend to gather firewood, a very beautiful Lady appeared to her above a rose bush in a grotto called Massabielle. The lovely Lady was dressed in blue and white. She smiled at Bernadette and then made the sign of the cross with a rosary of ivory and gold. Bernadette fell on her knees, took out her own rosary and began to pray the rosary. The beautiful Lady was God's Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. She appeared to Bernadette seventeen other times and spoke with her. She told Bernadette that she should pray sinners, do penance and have a chapel built there in her honor. Many people did not believe Bernadette when she spoke of her vision. She had to suffer much. But one day Our Lady told Bernadette to dig in the mud. As she did, a spring of water began to flow. The next day it continued to grow larger and larger. Many miracles happened when people began to use this water. When Bernadette was older, she became a nun. She was always very humble. More than anything else, she desired not to be praised. Once a nun asked her if she had temptations of pride because she was favored by the Blessed Mother. "How can I?" she answered quickly. "The Blessed Virgin chose me only because I was the most ignorant." What humility!

After having escaped being a victim of the cholera epidemic of 1855, she experienced painful attacks of asthma, and her ill health almost caused her to be cut off for ever from the religious life. When asked by Monsignor Forcade to take Bernadette, Louise Ferrand, the Mother Superior of the Sisters of Nevers, replied: "Monsignor, she will be a pillar of the infirmary".

At least three times during her short life-time, she received the last Sacraments. She was gradually struck by other illnesses as well as asthma: among them, tuberculosis of the lung and a tubercular tumor on her right knee. On Wednesday, April 16, 1879, her pain got much worse. Shortly after eleven she seemed to be almost suffocating and was carried to an armchair, where she sat with her feet on a footstool in front of a blazing fire. She died at about 3.15 in the afternoon.

The civil authorities permitted her body to remain on view to be venerated by the public until Saturday, April 19. Then it was "placed in a double coffin of lead and oak which was sealed in the presence of witnesses who signed a record of the events". Among the witnesses were "inspector of the peace, Devraine, and constables Saget and Moyen".

The nuns of Saint-Gildard, with the support of the bishop of Nevers, applied to the civil authorities for permission to bury Bernadette's body in a small chapel dedicated to Saint Joseph which was within the confines of the convent. The permission was granted on April 25, 1879, and on April 30, the local Prefect pronounced his approval of the choice of the site for burial. Immediately they set to work on preparing the vault. On May 30, 1879, Bernadette's coffin was finally transferred to the crypt of the chapel of Saint Joseph. A very simple ceremony was held to commemorate the event.

St. Bernadette's incorrupted body:

Quote from: Reformer on Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 17:00:29
As to your "mass sightings," perhaps you should read again what I wrote.  Take note: 

     No one living on earth today knows what Jesus' mother looked like.

That is your opinion, which is based on ignorance of the events. You have no idea whether of not Mary, or angels, or saints, or Jesus himself has appeared to other people. The fact that you "wrote" your opinion is irrelevant.

Click here:
LINK: The Apparitions at Fatima

EXCERPT:

"......The proclamation of a public miracle caused the most intense speculation throughout Portugal, and the journalist Avelino de Almeida, published a satirical article on the whole business in the anti-religious newspaper O Seculo. People from other parts of the country descended, in their tens of thousands, on the Cova, despite the terrible storm that lashed the mountain country around Fatima, on the eve of the 13th. Many pilgrims went barefooted, reciting the rosary as they went, all crowding into the area around the Cova, as by midmorning the weather again turned bad and heavy rain began to fall.

The children reached the holmoak around noon, and then saw the flash of light as Mary appeared before them. For the last time, Lucia asked what she wanted: "I want to tell you that a chapel is to be built here in my honour. I am the Lady of the Rosary. Continue always to pray the Rosary every day. The war is going to end, and the soldiers will soon return to their homes."

Again Lucia made her requests, being informed that people must amend their lives, and ask forgiveness of their sins, if they wanted healings or conversions. She reported too that Mary grew very sad and said: "Do not offend the Lord our God any more, because He is already so much offended." Then rising into the air and opening her hands towards the sun, growing more brilliant as she did, she disappeared, being replaced by various visions seen only by the children.

The Miracle of the Sun

At the same time the vast crowd saw a true miracle. The black clouds parted, and the sun became visible, looking like a dull grey disc that could be looked at directly quite easily. In O Seculo Avelino de Almeida would adopt a very different tone from his earlier satirical article on Fatima:

"...one could see the immense multitude turn towards the sun, which appeared free from clouds and at its zenith. It looked like a plaque of dull silver and it was possible to look at it without the least discomfort. It might have been an eclipse which was taking place. But at that moment a great shout went up and one could hear the spectators nearest at hand shouting: "A miracle! A miracle!" Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was Biblical as they stood bareheaded, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws - the sun "danced" according to the typical expression of the people. ...

"People then began to ask each other what they had seen. The great majority admitted to having seen the trembling and dancing of the sun; others affirmed that they saw the face of the Blessed Virgin; others, again, swore that the sun whirled on itself like a giant Catherine wheel and that it lowered itself to the earth as if to burn it with its rays. Some said they saw it change colours successively. ..."

Other witnesses too, such as Maria Carreira, testified to the terrifying nature of the solar miracle: "It turned everything different colours, yellow, blue, white, and it shook and trembled; it seemed like a wheel of fire which was going to fall on the people. They cried out: 'We shall all be killed, we shall all be killed!' ... At last the sun stopped moving and we all breathed a sigh of relief. We were still alive and the miracle which the children had foretold had taken place."

Other people witnessed the solar miracle from a distance thus ruling out the possibility of any type of collective hallucination. A final intriguing, and important, point was that the heat of the sun, as it descended on the people, also had the effect of drying their clothes and the ground, so that they went from being completely soaked to being dry in about ten minutes......"