Christian Forums

As a follower of my only lord and savior Jesus Christ, I do also have catholic friends. I will not say that catholics do not go to heaven but please read this with an open mind

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_church_is_a_big_hoax.htm

This not to debate and argue only to inform.

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Mon Jan 05, 2009 - 09:46:05
As a follower of my only lord and savior Jesus Christ, I do also have catholic friends. I will not say that catholics do not go to heaven but please read this with an open mind

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_church_is_a_big_hoax.htm

This not to debate and argue only to inform.

I tell you what: I will read that if you read this: LINK

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Mon Jan 05, 2009 - 09:46:05
As a follower of my only lord and savior Jesus Christ, I do also have catholic friends. I will not say that catholics do not go to heaven but please read this with an open mind

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_church_is_a_big_hoax.htm

This not to debate and argue only to inform.

This is not to debate and argue, only to inform: Christ granted all authority to the Apostles, with Peter being given the keys to the kingdom. Christ only founded one church, with one faith and one baptism and one set of leaders. Your denomination is not it.

Quote from: ole Jake on Mon Jan 05, 2009 - 16:55:10

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Mon Jan 05, 2009 - 09:46:05
As a follower of my only lord and savior Jesus Christ, I do also have catholic friends. I will not say that catholics do not go to heaven but please read this with an open mind

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_church_is_a_big_hoax.htm

This not to debate and argue only to inform.

This is not to debate and argue, only to inform: Christ granted all authority to the Apostles, with Peter being given the keys to the kingdom. Christ only founded one church, with one faith and one baptism and one set of leaders. Your denomination is not it.

No denomination is it !  So your RCC denomination is not it either !

Quote from: ole Jake on Mon Jan 05, 2009 - 16:55:10
......Christ granted all authority to the Apostles, with Peter being given the keys to the kingdom. Christ only founded one church, with one faith and one baptism and one set of leaders. Your denomination is not it.

True.

QuoteNo denomination is it !  So your RCC denomination is not it either !

Not true

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 05:52:42

QuoteNo denomination is it !  So your RCC denomination is not it either !

Not true

Absolutely true.

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 06:29:20

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 05:52:42

QuoteNo denomination is it !  So your RCC denomination is not it either !

Not true

Absolutely true.

Absolutely not true.
The Popes, from Peter to Benedict XVI :

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66)
St. Damasus I (366-83)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
St. Zosimus (417-18)
St. Boniface I (418-22)
St. Celestine I (422-32)
St. Sixtus III (432-40)
St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
St. Hilarius (461-68)
St. Simplicius (468-83)
St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
St. Gelasius I (492-96)
Anastasius II (496-98)
St. Symmachus (498-514)
St. Hormisdas (514-23)
St. John I (523-26)
St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
Boniface II (530-32)
John II (533-35)
St. Agapetus I (535-36)
St. Silverius (536-37)
Vigilius (537-55)
Pelagius I (556-61)
John III (561-74)
Benedict I (575-79)
Pelagius II (579-90)
St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
Sabinian (604-606)
Boniface III (607)
St. Boniface IV (608-15)
St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
Boniface V (619-25)
Honorius I (625-38)
Severinus (640)
John IV (640-42)
Theodore I (642-49)
St. Martin I (649-55)
St. Eugene I (655-57)
St. Vitalian (657-72)
Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
Donus (676-78)
St. Agatho (678-81)
St. Leo II (682-83)
St. Benedict II (684-85)
John V (685-86)
Conon (686-87)
St. Sergius I (687-701)
John VI (701-05)
John VII (705-07)
Sisinnius (708)
Constantine (708-15)
St. Gregory II (715-31)
St. Gregory III (731-41)
St. Zachary (741-52)
Stephen II (752)
Stephen III (752-57)
St. Paul I (757-67)
Stephen IV (767-72)
Adrian I (772-95)
St. Leo III (795-816)
Stephen V (816-17)
St. Paschal I (817-24)
Eugene II (824-27)
Valentine (827)
Gregory IV (827-44)
Sergius II (844-47)
St. Leo IV (847-55)
Benedict III (855-58)
St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
Adrian II (867-72)
John VIII (872-82)
Marinus I (882-84)
St. Adrian III (884-85)
Stephen VI (885-91)
Formosus (891-96)
Boniface VI (896)
Stephen VII (896-97)
Romanus (897)
Theodore II (897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-03)
Leo V (903)
Sergius III (904-11)
Anastasius III (911-13)
Lando (913-14)
John X (914-28)
Leo VI (928)
Stephen VIII (929-31)
John XI (931-35)
Leo VII (936-39)
Stephen IX (939-42)
Marinus II (942-46)
Agapetus II (946-55)
John XII (955-63)
Leo VIII (963-64)
Benedict V (964)
John XIII (965-72)
Benedict VI (973-74)
Benedict VII (974-83)
John XIV (983-84)
John XV (985-96)
Gregory V (996-99)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003)
John XVIII (1003-09)
Sergius IV (1009-12)
Benedict VIII (1012-24)
John XIX (1024-32)
Benedict IX (1032-45)
Sylvester III (1045)
Benedict IX (1045)
Gregory VI (1045-46)
Clement II (1046-47)
Benedict IX (1047-48)
Damasus II (1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-54)
Victor II (1055-57)
Stephen X (1057-58)
Nicholas II (1058-61)
Alexander II (1061-73)
St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
Paschal II (1099-1118)
Gelasius II (1118-19)
Callistus II (1119-24)
Honorius II (1124-30)
Innocent II (1130-43)
Celestine II (1143-44)
Lucius II (1144-45)
Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
Anastasius IV (1153-54)
Adrian IV (1154-59)
Alexander III (1159-81)
Lucius III (1181-85)
Urban III (1185-87)
Gregory VIII (1187)
Clement III (1187-91)
Celestine III (1191-98)
Innocent III (1198-1216)
Honorius III (1216-27)
Gregory IX (1227-41)
Celestine IV (1241)
Innocent IV (1243-54)
Alexander IV (1254-61)
Urban IV (1261-64)
Clement IV (1265-68)
Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
Blessed Innocent V (1276)
Adrian V (1276)
John XXI (1276-77)
Nicholas III (1277-80)
Martin IV (1281-85)
Honorius IV (1285-87)
Nicholas IV (1288-92)
St. Celestine V (1294)
Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
Clement V (1305-14)
John XXII (1316-34)
Benedict XII (1334-42)
Clement VI (1342-52)
Innocent VI (1352-62)
Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
Gregory XI (1370-78)
Urban VI (1378-89)
Boniface IX (1389-1404)
Innocent VII (1404-06)
Gregory XII (1406-15)
Martin V (1417-31)
Eugene IV (1431-47)
Nicholas V (1447-55)
Callistus III (1455-58)
Pius II (1458-64)
Paul II (1464-71)
Sixtus IV (1471-84)
Innocent VIII (1484-92)
Alexander VI (1492-1503)
Pius III (1503)
Julius II (1503-13)
Leo X (1513-21)
Adrian VI (1522-23)
Clement VII (1523-34)
Paul III (1534-49)
Julius III (1550-55)
Marcellus II (1555)
Paul IV (1555-59)
Pius IV (1559-65)
St. Pius V (1566-72)
Gregory XIII (1572-85)
Sixtus V (1585-90)
Urban VII (1590)
Gregory XIV (1590-91)
Innocent IX (1591)
Clement VIII (1592-1605)
Leo XI (1605)
Paul V (1605-21)
Gregory XV (1621-23)
Urban VIII (1623-44)
Innocent X (1644-55)
Alexander VII (1655-67)
Clement IX (1667-69)
Clement X (1670-76)
Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
Alexander VIII (1689-91)
Innocent XII (1691-1700)
Clement XI (1700-21)
Innocent XIII (1721-24)
Benedict XIII (1724-30)
Clement XII (1730-40)
Benedict XIV (1740-58)
Clement XIII (1758-69)
Clement XIV (1769-74)
Pius VI (1775-99)
Pius VII (1800-23)
Leo XII (1823-29)
Pius VIII (1829-30)
Gregory XVI (1831-46)
Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
Leo XIII (1878-1903)
St. Pius X (1903-14)
Benedict XV (1914-22)
Pius XI (1922-39)
Pius XII (1939-58)
Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
Paul VI (1963-78)
John Paul I (1978)
John Paul II (1978-2005)
Benedict XVI (2005—)

That is so lame.

First of all, you, not the Bible, call Peter a pope.  He wasn't the pope and he wasn't a pope.  Therefore none of those you say comes after Peter carries the God given designation of "pope" either.

So you can produce all the lists you want.  It proves nothing.  As for the designation of St this and St that.  I will just sign this as

St. Jimmy

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:36:24
That is so lame......

Oh ya? Does your heretical sect have a better list?

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:52:14

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:36:24
That is so lame......

Oh ya? Does your heretical sect have a better list?

I don't need a list.  If I did, God would have given me one or would have at least shown me how to recognize such a list.  That you even think you need such a list is a rather pathetic disenfranchising and devaluing of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:57:11

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:52:14

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:36:24
That is so lame......

Oh ya? Does your heretical sect have a better list?

I don't need a list.......

More like you don't have a list. Because the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ, and you just belong to a heretical break-away sect.

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:58:40

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:57:11

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:52:14

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 07:36:24
That is so lame......

Oh ya? Does your heretical sect have a better list?

I don't need a list.......

More like you don't have a list. Because the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ, and you just belong to a heretical break-away sect.

That is funny.  There is probably no sect more heretical than the Roman Catholic church.  Your entire organization is dependent upon that list.  Without that list, it ceases to exist.  A list of people (not all men, I believe) that contains some really bad people, as bad as they get.  Whatever was said of some of the kings of the divided nation of Isreal certainly can be said of some of the men on your list.

Jimmy et al:

What the list demonstrates is the incarnational nature--just as our Lord is an incarnate man--of Christ's Body the Church here in time.  This was an incredibly important matter in the earlier years of the Church: could you trace an incarnate connection to the Apostles.  Look at the letters of Clement (writing in the first century) and Ignatios and Polycarp (writing in the second).  Irenaeus in the late second century is at pains to demonstrate both the true apostolic teaching as over against the Gnostics, as well as to demonstrate that this teaching has come down in an incarnate way through a traceable lineage of Church leaders.  He was showing, in his work Against Heresies, how one could know that one is in the Church Christ founded: by virtue of adhering to the same apostolic teaching AND by virtue of a traceable incarnate lineage of leaders back to the apostles.

Protestants have dismissed with the traceable lineage (because they had to once they broke with Rome), and have attempted to claim apostolicity on the basis of teaching alone.  Unfortunately, with more than 20,000 schisms among the Protestants worldwide (with five more new ones each week: according to the 2003 World Encyclopedia), that claim to apostolic teaching is dubious.

Some other schismatic groups (I do not include Rome here) put all the emphasis on the traceable lineage, even though they teach aberrant theology.

The Orthodox have always emphasized the full apostolic teaching coupled with an incarnate lineage.

TEP:

While I, and other Orthodox, would argue that St. Peter was never bishop of Rome, but did, indeed, in his apostolate, as did all the Apostles, exercise universal jurisdiction in the Church, the universal jurisdiction of the Apostles was not a charism passed on to the specific bishops.  Bishops are not Apostles in the same sense that the Twelve and Paul were.  They are successors to the Apostles, to be sure.  And many of the charisms of the Apostles are given to the Church through the Apostles and then the Bishops (teacing, binding and loosing sin, etc.).

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 08:43:45
Jimmy et al:

What the list demonstrates is the incarnational nature--just as our Lord is an incarnate man--of Christ's Body the Church here in time.  This was an incredibly important matter in the earlier years of the Church: could you trace an incarnate connection to the Apostles. 

It demonstrates nothing except that you have some ability to read history.

And yes indeed, we can trace an incarnate connection to the apostles in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every Christian from Pentecost to now.  We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not through the life of any (some highly suspect) man save Jesus Christ Himself.

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 08:50:56It demonstrates nothing except that you have some ability to read history.

Hmmm.  And for a God who entered history and saves in time, history isn't important?  Then why does Scripture say that in the fullness of time, God sent forth his Son . . . ?

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 08:50:56And yes indeed, we can trace an incarnate connection to the apostles in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every Christian from Pentecost to now.

But that's partly what's at issue.  How does anyone of these Christians know that they have the Holy Spirit?  Because Scripture says so?  How do they know they're interpreting Scripture correctly?  Some Christians teach that you can't know you have the Holy Spirit unless you have an experience in glossalalia?  But how could you ever know that experience is real?  Other Christians--Restoration Movement Christians--teach that the Spirit isn't a person but is simply the influence of the Scriptures on the mind of a Christian so that the personal indwelling of the Spirit isn't even necessary let alone real?  How does the individual believer judge these things and know them to be true?

Further, how can such a believer claim to have the Holy Spirit when he cannot claim with certainty to be part of the same Church on earth that was founded by Christ himself?  After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church.  And if there is no way to discern the Church on earth that Christ founded, then how do we know that Christ's promise that the gates of hades would not prevail against the Church hasn't failed?

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 08:50:56We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not through the life of any (some highly suspect) man save Jesus Christ Himself.

No Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit through the Pope or any other bishop.  You are making false claims that aren't true, and therefore this comment is empty.

Jimmy do not waste your time. They are blinded my Religion.  It is all about Statues and Saints and Mary worship. Even Paul checked Peter for being a Hypocrite to his face in Acts. The 1st Pope..NONSENSE!

The Pope wears more jewelry than a gangsta rapper and has people kissing his ring. Even Peter would have slapped the Pope in his face for asking to have a ring kissed.

Jesus was humble and said wash each others feet. The Catholic church has the worst history of all time. Murders, Rapes, child abusers, silent on Hitler. Nothing they do comes from the Bible..all man made...remember paying your way to get out..with indulgences. Pray that God takes you out of these people..and Come back to the KING of KINGS ..not his mother.

The Popes will have to stand in front of Christ to be judged for their evil and so will we all. And the Pope cannot help you on that day.. even you Tu es Petrus..you do like all Catholics lifting up a man with your pictures of the Pope..he is just a sinner like anyone else.

I serve no denominations..I serve the King of Kings...The Pope cannot even help himself on Judgement day. He should take off all that foolishness he wears and repent with Sackclothes and Ashes.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:00:31
Other Christians--Restoration Movement Christians--teach that the Spirit isn't a person but is simply the influence of the Scriptures on the mind of a Christian so that the personal indwelling of the Spirit isn't even necessary let alone real? 

I don't know where you got that idea.  It is certainly not a teaching of the Restoration Movement.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:00:31
After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church. 

The Christian is the Church.  The RCC is just one of a group of believers within the Body of Christ.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:00:31

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 08:50:56We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not through the life of any (some highly suspect) man save Jesus Christ Himself.

No Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit through the Pope or any other bishop.  You are making false claims that aren't true, and therefore this comment is empty.

But you do make that claim, at least implicitly.  When you said above that "no Christian is saved apart from the Church"  and you claim that list of men to demonsrtate the incarnal nature of the Church, you in effect have proclaimed the Holy Spirit can be acquired only by virtue of those men.  It is not an empty claim.  It is the very heart and soul of the RCC.

Quote
But that's partly what's at issue.  How does anyone of these Christians know that they have the Holy Spirit?

That is the problem with Catholics you have never seen the power of the Holy Spirit, your Churches are dead. No Spirit..No life..half the people sleeping at the Mass. You need to see a REAL Church on fire from God

If you had the Holy Spirit you would know..and since you do not know you do not have it. Those who do have the Spirit know.

When is the last time you saw a real sinner repeat and get baptised. You cannot because you baptize babies, denying them a true baptism which is when an adult  accepts Christ. God help you all when Christ returns

Quote CDHealy: After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church."

This statement is not true !  The reason it is  not true, is because of how you use this statement.  What you are actually saying, is that no one is saved except by the Catholic Church.

Salvation is through Christ Jesus, and the accomplishments of the cross and resurrection.  When we were baptized in Christ's death, and resurrection, we were cleased from all sin.  The church "is" the body of Christ.  We are saved by grace through faith.

If you do not recognize others who are not Catholic, and who are IN Christ, and  not a part of the RCC, then you are denying what the scriptures tell us.

How do you know ?   You shall know them by their fruit.

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:21:12

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:00:31
Other Christians--Restoration Movement Christians--teach that the Spirit isn't a person but is simply the influence of the Scriptures on the mind of a Christian so that the personal indwelling of the Spirit isn't even necessary let alone real? 

I don't know where you got that idea.  It is certainly not a teaching of the Restoration Movement.

The beginnings of it can be seen here: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/mh/SVAHSCSS.HTM
"Moreover were we to attempt to separate the Spirit from the Word, or the Word from the Spirit, the consequence must prove fatal: for it would not only be separating what God has constitutionally and [498]  solemnly united, saying, "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord: My Spirit is upon them, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth, and forever." Isai. lix. 21. But, moreover, to separate these, would also be depriving ourselves of that blissful certainty of our salvation, which the Word and Spirit of God, only when united, can give. Wherefore, what God has thus solemnly joined together, let not man dare to put asunder. Again, if either the Word or the Spirit separately, had been sufficient to have answered the divine purpose, why give us both? Do we not learn from the uniform tenor of the Good Book, that the Word without the Spirit could not save us? For "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor. xii. 3. Also, is it evident, that the Spirit without his divinely authenticated Word, would be inaccessible to us? "

Also here: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/jharding/HSABR.HTM
"The Spirit helps our infirmity. What that means it is probable we will not fully understand till we come before the judgment seat of Christ: but some that are included in its meaning, I think, are clear. One great defect of man, even after the life of Christ on earth, was lack of knowledge of divine things. The Spirit has certainly helped our infirmity at the point by giving to us, through apostles and prophets, the perfect law of liberty: and he has thus furnished us "completely unto every good work." We need expect nothing more in this line this side of the second coming of Christ. "

And for what it's worth, one of my Bible college professors, at Ozark Christian College, taught this very thing.

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:21:12

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:00:31
After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church. 

The Christian is the Church.  The RCC is just one of a group of believers within the Body of Christ.

The Christian is the Church?  Where do you get that in Scripture?

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:21:12

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:00:31

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 08:50:56We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not through the life of any (some highly suspect) man save Jesus Christ Himself.

No Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit through the Pope or any other bishop.  You are making false claims that aren't true, and therefore this comment is empty.

But you do make that claim, at least implicitly.  When you said above that "no Christian is saved apart from the Church"  and you claim that list of men to demonsrtate the incarnal nature of the Church, you in effect have proclaimed the Holy Spirit can be acquired only by virtue of those men.  It is not an empty claim.  It is the very heart and soul of the RCC.

No, there is no logical implication such as you claim.  It is an empty claim because Rome does not claim it.  I'd like to see you provide the appropriate citations from official Roman Catholic sites to prove it (I know you can't).

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:26:34
Quote CDHealy: After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church."

This statement is not true !  The reason it is  not true, is because of how you use this statement.  What you are actually saying, is that no one is saved except by the Catholic Church.

No, that is not what I'm saying--though I've been falsely accused of saying that.  It's not what I'm saying because I'm Orthodox and not Roman Catholic.  But it's also not what I'm saying because my Orthodox ecclesiology does not say that, nor is it logically necessary from my ecclesiology.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:26:34Salvation is through Christ Jesus, and the accomplishments of the cross and resurrection.  When we were baptized in Christ's death, and resurrection, we were cleased from all sin.  The church "is" the body of Christ.  We are saved by grace through faith.

I would agree with this, and I would point out that you have made my point for me.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:26:34If you do not recognize others who are not Catholic, and who are IN Christ, and  not a part of the RCC, then you are denying what the scriptures tell us.

I am on record here of recognizing that the Spirit saves people outside the visible boundaries of the Church.  I believe that non-Orthodox believers are Christians.  You cannot make my position to logically entail that just because I say no one is saved apart from the Church that there are not Christians outside the visible boundaries of the Church.

From your vantage point you think so, because to you the Church has no visibility, it's boundaries are invisible.  But I do not agree with your vantage point, and you cannot get to your conclusion from my vantage point.

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:23:26That is the problem with Catholics you have never seen the power of the Holy Spirit, your Churches are dead. No Spirit..No life..half the people sleeping at the Mass. You need to see a REAL Church on fire from God

It would seem to me that this violates some of the board rules.  I have some recent experience in receiving some board discipline so I think I'm on solid ground here.

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:23:26If you had the Holy Spirit you would know..and since you do not know you do not have it. Those who do have the Spirit know.

If you are questioning whether I have the Holy Spirit--and in context your comment appears to be doing that very thing--then I think you are violating board rules.

But I would also point out that this "argument" for how one knows one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is circular.  Essentially you're saying that one knows because one knows.  Not helpful.

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:23:26When is the last time you saw a real sinner repeat and get baptised. You cannot because you baptize babies, denying them a true baptism which is when an adult  accepts Christ. God help you all when Christ returns

I saw three adults baptized at Pascha (or Easter).  I also saw a baby baptized that same day.  All four have been united to Christ.

Quote from: CDHealy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:39:18

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:26:34
Quote CDHealy: After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church."

This statement is not true !  The reason it is  not true, is because of how you use this statement.  What you are actually saying, is that no one is saved except by the Catholic Church.

No, that is not what I'm saying--though I've been falsely accused of saying that.  It's not what I'm saying because I'm Orthodox and not Roman Catholic.  But it's also not what I'm saying because my Orthodox ecclesiology does not say that, nor is it logically necessary from my ecclesiology.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:26:34Salvation is through Christ Jesus, and the accomplishments of the cross and resurrection.  When we were baptized in Christ's death, and resurrection, we were cleased from all sin.  The church "is" the body of Christ.  We are saved by grace through faith.

I would agree with this, and I would point out that you have made my point for me.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:26:34If you do not recognize others who are not Catholic, and who are IN Christ, and  not a part of the RCC, then you are denying what the scriptures tell us.

I am on record here of recognizing that the Spirit saves people outside the visible boundaries of the Church.  I believe that non-Orthodox believers are Christians.  You cannot make my position to logically entail that just because I say no one is saved apart from the Church that there are not Christians outside the visible boundaries of the Church.

From your vantage point you think so, because to you the Church has no visibility, it's boundaries are invisible.  But I do not agree with your vantage point, and you cannot get to your conclusion from my vantage point.

OK, my appolgy for assuming. 

I do believe that the "Church" is not a building or an organization.  The spiritual can not be seen with our physical eyes.  The body of Christ, the wife to Christ is spiritual.  I believe in predestination, that God has chosen whomever he pleases, from before the foundation of the world, to put them into the body where it pleases him.

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:14:43
Jimmy do not waste your time. They are blinded my Religion.  It is all about Statues and Saints and Mary worship.....

Talk about blind. Don't people ever get tired of spreading the lies - and I do mean LIES - that we worship Mary? We do not, and any Christian that is half-way intelligent KNOWS that we do not.

Thats stuff belongs in Chick Tracts, not in an intelligent conversation.

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 14:58:42

Quote from: SpiritHappy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 09:14:43
Jimmy do not waste your time. They are blinded my Religion.  It is all about Statues and Saints and Mary worship.....

Talk about blind. Don't people ever get tired of spreading the lies - and I do mean LIES - that we worship Mary? We do not, and any Christian that is half-way intelligent KNOWS that we do not.

Thats stuff belongs in Chick Tracts, not in an intelligent conversation.

Perhaps you need to consider that rather being some kind of freaky aberration, Jack Chick is the essence and a telos of Protestantism.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think most mainstream protestants are descent, God-fearing folks. I surely don't believe that some of the goofballs in this forum represent the average protestant. I would think that someone like Lee Freeman is more like the average protestant. At least, I sure hope so.

Do some Catholics worship Mary?  How many Catholics are devout and how many are Cafeteria Catholics?

Quote from: Gary on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 18:45:48
Do some Catholics worship Mary? 

No

Quote from: Gary on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 18:45:48
How many Catholics are devout and how many are Cafeteria Catholics?

I don't know. We have a lot of rotten Catholics, ones who won't accept the Church's teachings on abortion, euthenasia, etc. But worshipping Mary? Come on, please: Who on God's green earth would worship a human being as a god.

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 18:50:31

Quote from: Gary on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 18:45:48
Do some Catholics worship Mary? 

No

Quote from: Gary on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 18:45:48
How many Catholics are devout and how many are Cafeteria Catholics?

I don't know. We have a lot of rotten Catholics, ones who won't accept the Church's teachings on abortion, euthenasia, etc. But worshipping Mary? Come on, please: Who on God's green earth would worship a human being as a god.

Lots of folks do lots of crazy things.  Have you ever heard of Yahweh Ben Yahweh?  So it would not surprise me that a Catholic person would worship Mary.

I'm unlocking this thread, but it will be monitored. 

And in case a review of the posting rules is in order...
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,13977.0.html

Quote from: Tu Es Petrus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 - 17:48:23
Oh, I don't know about that. I think most mainstream protestants are descent, God-fearing folks. I surely don't believe that some of the goofballs in this forum represent the average protestant. I would think that someone like Lee Freeman is more like the average protestant. At least, I sure hope so.

That most Protestants are very good folks means no more than that most members of the Soviet Communist party wer also decent folks. My emphasis is the ideolgy, the philosophy.

That said, I also must note that I was raised among Southern Baptists, Primitive (Calvinist) Baptists and Church of Christ (different family members). The most extreme anti-Catholic nonsense you read here is what I heard repeatedly in Bible classes and from the pulpit.

A Lee Freeman saying at one of those churches the things he says here to refute such nonsensical hatred would have been denounced endlessly for falling for the lies of the whore of Babylon until he either left the church or fell into line.

Do Catholics believe that Protestants are saved?

Be honest.  Do they?

I know we were called heretics in here... but are we saved?  (in your opinion... Catholic?) Anyone...? 

I wouldn't ask Ol' Jake to say what all Catholics believe.  That'd be like taking Jack Chick to be a typical protestant.

I'e known many Catholics who were kind, spiritual, and who did believe Protestants were saved.

Quote from: marc on Fri Jan 09, 2009 - 22:41:26
I wouldn't ask Ol' Jake to say what all Catholics believe.  That'd be like taking Jack Chick to be a typical protestant.

I'e known many Catholics who were kind, spiritual, and who did believe Protestants were saved.

It was a question in general... not TO any one Catholic...   Not at all.

Quote from: marc on Fri Jan 09, 2009 - 22:41:26
I wouldn't ask Ol' Jake to say what all Catholics believe.  That'd be like taking Jack Chick to be a typical protestant.

I'e known many Catholics who were kind, spiritual, and who did believe Protestants were saved.

I get the impression from some Catholics, here and in RL that they believe that we need to become Catholic to be "truly" saved.