Christian Forums

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 16:17:04
I believe if the woman submits to her husband....God will bless it!

Ah, but won't God bless me for being humble and acknowledging that my wife is perhaps tired, or nauseated by the smell of hamburger that week? I believe it works both ways.

Give & take, two forms of submission

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 16:22:28
I can not answer for MM, but as for me I would have to obey God over man.

I think the point was that the church already 'blessed' it, and thus the man had "God's" approval by the church's authority. So you wouldn't be submitting to your husband and according to him and the church you'd be rebelling without due cause.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 17:17:32

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 16:22:28
I can not answer for MM, but as for me I would have to obey God over man.

I think the point was that the church already 'blessed' it, and thus the man had "God's" approval by the church's authority. So you wouldn't be submitting to your husband and according to him and the church you'd be rebelling without due cause.

Wrong church !   Find the Church that teaches truth and not lies.

QuoteWrong church !   Find the Church that teaches truth and not lies.

And cows can fly!  It's a judgement call as to what constitutes proper teaching and what doesn't.

The husband is a Christian but that doesn't mean he is against abortion!

I'll give you one that relates to the man being the head of household, over the wife. It's happened more than once for us.

Being Military, my husband is offered sets of orders at his rotation to choose from, He brings them home to me and we look them over together.  We discuss the ins and outs of each one and sort them out to find the one set that is best for all of us.  

There have been a few times when the set I wanted to take was different than the one he thought he should take or wanted.  We discuss it and discuss it.  We take as much into consideration as we can, and find agreement.  But, there have been times when we get down to the last bit of discussion and we cannot find agreement.  For me, the benefits are in one direction, for him, another.  We could pick either, but we both have seen the up side to one in our view.  The bottom line is... He has to make that choice for us. And I have to submit to it, He is the military member, and can see the long term benefits of that choice.  

Again... when we bought our house, there was no wrong choice, but we had different views on what we wanted to see in our future long term home.  We had choices, and we both had good input to the decision.  Once again it got down to "no wrong choice" but a final choice has to be made, we have to move and the time has come.  This is where his being the "head" brings us together as one.  I submit to his leadership to make that choice for us.  I didn't think it was the right choice... but he again has to consider the long term home we will have and his responsibility to me and the family before the LORD.  He made the decision. I signed papers on a house I was not sure I wanted or even liked.  Today, I cannot see where we would have been if he had done different, he has not once looked back or regretted the decision he made.  And... I love my home.  We put our heads together here and it's ours...  He picked it, he bought it, but WE live in it.

Even though the church "blessed it" doesn't make it right!  We all accept that and I would hazzard a guess that we all consider abortion murder.  However, that is not the way it was in the late 1st Century when the Christian writer of the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabas specifically told the believers they were writing to that abortion and exposure are wrong and against God's laws.

kensington,

The fact that he is discussing those decissions with you is a form of submission.  You are submitting to his decission because not only because you are his wife but he is the one who really has to decide what is better for his career.  If the roles were switched, he was a "military house husband" and you were the military career person, it would be your responsibility to decide what is best for your career with his input.  You would submit to his advise but in the end he would have to submit to your decission at to what is best for you in your career.

That would be mutual submission in decission making.  There will always be one person who submits to the other and, from time to time, there will be role reversal.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 17:13:47

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 16:17:04
I believe if the woman submits to her husband....God will bless it!

Ah, but won't God bless me for being humble and acknowledging that my wife is perhaps tired, or nauseated by the smell of hamburger that week? I believe it works both ways.

Give & take, two forms of submission

Yes! That is your part....LOVE

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 17:17:32

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 16:22:28
I can not answer for MM, but as for me I would have to obey God over man.

I think the point was that the church already 'blessed' it, and thus the man had "God's" approval by the church's authority. So you wouldn't be submitting to your husband and according to him and the church you'd be rebelling without due cause.

I will have to agree with MM...wrong church...doesn't sound like they are submissive to the head (Christ) which came to give life!

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 17:33:59

QuoteWrong church !   Find the Church that teaches truth and not lies.

And cows can fly!  It's a judgement call as to what constitutes proper teaching and what doesn't.

The husband is a Christian but that doesn't mean he is against abortion!

I was a dairy farmer most of my life (owner - operator).  Cows don't fly !

And God would never tell the true church to tell a wife to get an abortion.   Wrong church, so wife does not have to abide by anyone's decisions. 

One thing that always holds true.  No matter what is said, and no matter who said it, if it is not of God, man or woman does not have to follow their guidance.  No matter if either of them are married or not, and for any reason whatsoever, no matter what the circumstance.

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:32:02

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:31:09

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:13:46

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:12:13

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 12:25:15
A question to all those that do not believe their husband is the head....When you come to a place that you both do not agree..who gets the final say?

And that is really the issue that you're focused upon--"who gets the final say?"  In so focusing on that the real point is missed.

We find ourselves using the same words yet speaking a different language.


V

So you avoid the question....

No, not avoiding the question...it's actually been addressed more than once, especially by Phoebe and similarly by Wiley.

The way in which you have posed the question makes it somewhat awkward for me to answer because I can only answer from the perspective of a husband.  Do you want me to answer from that perspective, or would you rather refer back to Phoebe's answer?


V

Just answer!

When it comes to insignificant things we have a race to see who defers to the other first!

When it comes to significant things where we're not in agreement (rarely) we wait, pray, talk...don't move till we have consensus.  No recriminations, no repressed anger or resentments.

It is not Christ-like to dictate to another adult, especially other Believers, especially your wife or husband.


V

Mystery Man,

QuoteI was a dairy farmer most of my life (owner - operator).  Cows don't fly ! 

Well, I don't know about that anymore.  Spent the better part of my adult life raising Santa Gertrudis and Simental.  All I can say is that I have seen a 2500 lb bull "fly" over barbed wire fences without ever coming close to the fence!

I agree with you that it was the wrong church if it supported abortion but that does not take away from history and the fact that Christian leaders had to tell Christians that they should not abort their unborn or expose their children says that it was indeed a problem in the church in the late 1st and early 2nd Century.  It also doesnot take away the fact that there are Christian churches in this century that do say it is the mother's choice and do not label it as sin.

The attempt to say that it is the wrong church to go to does not answer the question of wifely one-way submission as a Biblical concept.  So without blaming the church as being the wrong church, what should the wife do by your standard of the husband has the final say in everything?  Should she submit to her husband, which is the Biblical concept here by your belief in the idea that Paul is directing the wife to always be in submission to the husband in everything and the husband has the final say in everything, or should she not submit to the husband, claiming that murder of the unborn is against the law of God and by doing so, break the other law of God that says wives are to submit to the husband in everything?

Which one is she supposed to do?

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 18:50:37
Mystery Man,

QuoteI was a dairy farmer most of my life (owner - operator).  Cows don't fly ! 

Well, I don't know about that anymore.  Spent the better part of my adult life raising Santa Gertrudis and Simental.  All I can say is that I have seen a 2500 lb bull "fly" over barbed wire fences without ever coming close to the fence!

I agree with you that it was the wrong church if it supported abortion but that does not take away from history and the fact that Christian leaders had to tell Christians that they should not abort their unborn or expose their children says that it was indeed a problem in the church in the late 1st and early 2nd Century.  It also doesnot take away the fact that there are Christian churches in this century that do say it is the mother's choice and do not label it as sin.

The attempt to say that it is the wrong church to go to does not answer the question of wifely one-way submission as a Biblical concept.  So without blaming the church as being the wrong church, what should the wife do by your standard of the husband has the final say in everything?  Should she submit to her husband, which is the Biblical concept here by your belief in the idea that Paul is directing the wife to always be in submission to the husband in everything and the husband has the final say in everything, or should she not submit to the husband, claiming that murder of the unborn is against the law of God and by doing so, break the other law of God that says wives are to submit to the husband in everything?

Which one is she supposed to do?

She would not be disobeying God by not getting an abortion.  She would be disobeying God if she does get an abortion.  End discussion.

The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife.

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 18:14:01

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:32:02

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:31:09

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:13:46

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:12:13

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 12:25:15
A question to all those that do not believe their husband is the head....When you come to a place that you both do not agree..who gets the final say?

And that is really the issue that you're focused upon--"who gets the final say?"  In so focusing on that the real point is missed.

We find ourselves using the same words yet speaking a different language.


V

So you avoid the question....

No, not avoiding the question...it's actually been addressed more than once, especially by Phoebe and similarly by Wiley.

The way in which you have posed the question makes it somewhat awkward for me to answer because I can only answer from the perspective of a husband.  Do you want me to answer from that perspective, or would you rather refer back to Phoebe's answer?


V

Just answer!

When it comes to insignificant things we have a race to see who defers to the other first!

When it comes to significant things where we're not in agreement (rarely) we wait, pray, talk...don't move till we have consensus.  No recriminations, no repressed anger or resentments.

It is not Christ-like to dictate to another adult, especially other Believers, especially your wife or husband.


V

THat is where I believe you misunderstand my belief...I never have believed a husband has a right to dictate....He is to love his wife with understanding!

It is not Christ-like to dictate to another adult, especially other Believers, especially your wife or husband.

Answer
No one ever said it was. A husband being the head isnt dictating anything. When ever you say that the husband is to be the head according to what God tells us, phases such as this are brought up. What Grace and I and others have said over and over is that the husband is to love his wife AS Christ loves the chuirch and if he does there will be NO dictating going on.

if you dont like the instructions given to married couples then dont obey them, but as for me, I think that to follow what we are told to do by God is a very wise decision. After all, Gods wisdom is right and many times humans 'wisdom ' isnt.

This topic has had many of us either trying to explain that we think that obeying Gods instructions to married couples is the  right and wise thing to do, and others who think that they dont actually say what they do actually say and seem to want to ignore them.
That is up to you, but I have learnt that God knows far better than I do what works in life and what doesnt.

As for the burger and chicken thing. If I asked my husband what he wanted to eat and he said burgers, why not cook a burger. its no big deal is it?
if I dont ask, he always eats whatever I give him anyway cos he is so easy to please, and he is always grateful.Of course it helps that we are both  people who are very easy to please.

QuoteShe would not be disobeying God by not getting an abortion.  She would be disobeying God if she does get an abortion.  End discussion.

The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife.
 

When did I say he was unbelieving?  

[He - is - a - Christian![/i] not an unbelieving husband.

Now that we have cleared that up---

What does she do?

So far you have only given me answers that you then qualified with conditions I did not state.

Just an a or b answer will do.

Does she:

(a) Does she disobey God by submitting to the final decission of her Christian husband by having an abortion which she considers wrong

or

(b)  Does she disobey God by not submitting to the final decission of her husband?

In either case that I have stated which is based on the view that wives are to be in submission to the husband as the final decission maker, she is going to break one of the laws of God.  Which one should she break in your opinion?

Answer a or b and we will move on from this particular question!

Chosenone,

Guess I must be the  perfect  husband.  I do all of the cooking when I'm there!

Wiley,

The wife is caught in a Catch-22 situation. The best solution is a lesser of two evils.

blessings

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 19:48:26

QuoteShe would not be disobeying God by not getting an abortion.  She would be disobeying God if she does get an abortion.  End discussion.

The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife.
 

When did I say he was unbelieving?  

[He - is - a - Christian![/i] not an unbelieving husband.

Now that we have cleared that up---

What does she do?

So far you have only given me answers that you then qualified with conditions I did not state.

Just an a or b answer will do.

Does she:

(a) Does she disobey God by submitting to the final decission of her Christian husband by having an abortion which she considers wrong

or

(b)  Does she disobey God by not submitting to the final decission of her husband?

In either case that I have stated which is based on the view that wives are to be in submission to the husband as the final decission maker, she is going to break one of the laws of God.  Which one should she break in your opinion?

Answer a or b and we will move on from this particular question!

You can not paint a picture of an unbelieving christian, then claim because he is a christians , that he is a believer.  Many christians do not "always" believe correctly, thus rendering their own christianity only being fallable with their won fleshly minds.  Paul even told babes , that they walk carnally, because they are baby christians.  So baby christians can walk carnally. If someone supports walking carnally, then they themselves are not walking in the Spirit.

So she is suppose to be seen as the believing wife, who is obeying God by not getting an abortion.  Those walking by their carnal minds will disagree with her decision.  So be it.  She is in fellowship with God because of her walking righteously.

Stephen did this , which I believe was an excellent example of taking a stand of righeousness.  And they stoned him to death.

I would rather walk the walk and talk the talk of a Stephen, then face God later when he asks the big questions of me latter on at the judgement.

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 19:51:36
Chosenone,

Guess I must be the  perfect  husband.  I do all of the cooking when I'm there!

well done wiley. My husband did much of the cooking in his first marriage, cos he had to do much of everything actually even though he worked full time and she didnt work for much of their marriage.. Now he does all the work that makes the money, and I do the work that doesnt as he can earn LOADS more than I could. It works really well, as I hated working when I was a single parent for 6 years, and I am so pleased that I can now be at home and run the household for the four of us who live here. 

Mystery Man,

I never said he was not a Christian and I did not paint that picture.  I will repeat what I said and put it in italics as to what he is: a Crhistian who listens in church--just not the one we are a apart of!

QuoteWife:  Honey, I'm pregnant again.  How are we going to be able to afford it?
husband:  We can't.  You will need to get an abortion.
wife: No, I can't do that!
Husband: I am the head of this family and my decission stands!  Our church has said it isn't wrong because it not a living person.  So the decission stands!

Please note the Italics in Bold!  He said our church.

Yes, I gave you (and anyone else who wants to give an opinion) one of those no correct answer situations.  

I did so on purpose to see how strong your belief in the husband has the final word and wife must submit to it really is.

You still are trying to change what I said and then answer according to what you want to think I said rather than what I said.

Does the wife go against her conscious by submitting to the decission of the husband or does she go against the church that preaches the "husband is the final decission in the family" by not submitting to her husband?

If the husband is the final rule descission maker in the house as taught by the church, then that is God's law according to the church,  she would also violate God's teaching by not submitting to her husband and keeping the child.

In all of the above, it should be remembered that the church (in this case) either takes no stand or says it is OK because the child is not a living being until it is born.

That is actual historical information of what was occuring in the 1st and 2nd Centuries regarding how individual churches were understanding this particular situation.

Apollos,

You caught it right off!  You get mana for a good catch.  It is indeed a no-win situation and that is exactly what a oneway submission puts a wife into when the husband has the absolute decision on everything.  She is indeed in a catch-22 situation and, unfortunately, that is also what we put women into today.

Choseone,

Thankyou!  When I posted that I had a huge pot of stew cooking for the ice storm that is predicted tonight!  I think stew is best after aging for 24 hours in the refrige. ! I also made up cornbread to go with the stew!  I'll be working on the downstairs cleaning today while the wife is at work (I'm off work for another three weeks!).

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:12:32
Apollos,

You caught it right off!  You get mana for a good catch.  It is indeed a no-win situation and that is exactly what a oneway submission puts a wife into when the husband has the absolute decision on everything.  She is indeed in a catch-22 situation and, unfortunately, that is also what we put women into today.

I do not feel like I am put in a situation. This is my second marriage... my first marriage I lived with a man that claimed to be a christian but did not live like it. My faith was not in my husband but in God.

I lived in a very selfish enviroment. I was married 14 years. God taught me submission in that marriage...even in a lot of his bad/selfish choices. God protected me and taught me a lot.

Was Sara in subjection to Abraham an example for us to follow? (1 Peter 3)

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;  In like manner, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, even if any obey not the word, they may without the word be gained by the behavior of their wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.  beholding your chaste behavior [coupled] with fear.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:  For after this manner aforetime the holy women also, who hoped in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.  Ye husbands, in like manner, dwell with [your wives] according to knowledge, giving honor unto the woman, as unto the weaker vessel, as being also joint-heirs of the grace of life; to the end that your prayers be not hindered.
8 Finally *, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:  Finally, [be] ye all likeminded, compassionate, loving as brethren, tenderhearted, humbleminded:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto * * called, that ye should inherit a blessing.  not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but contrariwise blessing; for hereunto were ye called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:  For, He that would love life, And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew * evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.  And let him turn away from evil, and do good; Let him seek peace, and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.  For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, And his ears unto their supplication: But the face of the Lord is upon them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?  And who is he that will harm you, if ye be zealous of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;  But even if ye should suffer for righteousness` sake, blessed [are ye:] and fear not their fear, neither be troubled;

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:12:32
Apollos,

You caught it right off!  You get mana for a good catch.  It is indeed a no-win situation and that is exactly what a oneway submission puts a wife into when the husband has the absolute decision on everything.  She is indeed in a catch-22 situation and, unfortunately, that is also what we put women into today.

I disagree !  It is a win win situation if the woman does what is righteous.  Or else her children would be unclean - I Corinth. 7:14

Quote from: grace on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:31:57

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:12:32
Apollos,

You caught it right off!  You get mana for a good catch.  It is indeed a no-win situation and that is exactly what a oneway submission puts a wife into when the husband has the absolute decision on everything.  She is indeed in a catch-22 situation and, unfortunately, that is also what we put women into today.

I do not feel like I am put in a situation. This is my second marriage... my first marriage I lived with a man that claimed to be a christian but did not live like it. My faith was not in my husband but in God.

I lived in a very selfish enviroment. I was married 14 years. God taught me submission in that marriage...even in a lot of his bad/selfish choices. God protected me and taught me a lot.

Was Sara in subjection to Abraham an example for us to follow? (1 Peter 3)

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;  In like manner, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, even if any obey not the word, they may without the word be gained by the behavior of their wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.  beholding your chaste behavior [coupled] with fear.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:  For after this manner aforetime the holy women also, who hoped in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.  Ye husbands, in like manner, dwell with [your wives] according to knowledge, giving honor unto the woman, as unto the weaker vessel, as being also joint-heirs of the grace of life; to the end that your prayers be not hindered.
8 Finally *, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:  Finally, [be] ye all likeminded, compassionate, loving as brethren, tenderhearted, humbleminded:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto * * called, that ye should inherit a blessing.  not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but contrariwise blessing; for hereunto were ye called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:  For, He that would love life, And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew * evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.  And let him turn away from evil, and do good; Let him seek peace, and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.  For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, And his ears unto their supplication: But the face of the Lord is upon them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?  And who is he that will harm you, if ye be zealous of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;  But even if ye should suffer for righteousness` sake, blessed [are ye:] and fear not their fear, neither be troubled;

Amen, Grace, and again I say - Amen

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 18:06:45

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 17:33:59

QuoteWrong church !   Find the Church that teaches truth and not lies.

And cows can fly!  It's a judgement call as to what constitutes proper teaching and what doesn't.

The husband is a Christian but that doesn't mean he is against abortion!

I was a dairy farmer most of my life (owner - operator).  Cows don't fly !

And God would never tell the true church to tell a wife to get an abortion.   Wrong church, so wife does not have to abide by anyone's decisions. 

One thing that always holds true.  No matter what is said, and no matter who said it, if it is not of God, man or woman does not have to follow their guidance.  No matter if either of them are married or not, and for any reason whatsoever, no matter what the circumstance.

I've been a swine producer all my adult life.  Ceased production last year.  Hogs can fly.  But don't try teaching them to sing...just makes 'em irritable.

V

Quote from: Volkmar on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 16:11:23

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 18:06:45

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 17:33:59

QuoteWrong church !   Find the Church that teaches truth and not lies.

And cows can fly!  It's a judgement call as to what constitutes proper teaching and what doesn't.

The husband is a Christian but that doesn't mean he is against abortion!

I was a dairy farmer most of my life (owner - operator).  Cows don't fly !

And God would never tell the true church to tell a wife to get an abortion.   Wrong church, so wife does not have to abide by anyone's decisions. 

One thing that always holds true.  No matter what is said, and no matter who said it, if it is not of God, man or woman does not have to follow their guidance.  No matter if either of them are married or not, and for any reason whatsoever, no matter what the circumstance.

I've been a swine producer all my adult life.  Ceased production last year.  Hogs can fly.  But don't try teaching them to sing...just makes 'em irritable.

V

That is because you never sang to them.  Shame on you.  lol

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 19:22:20

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 18:14:01

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:32:02

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:31:09

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:13:46

Quote from: Volkmar on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 15:12:13

Quote from: grace on Mon Jan 26, 2009 - 12:25:15
A question to all those that do not believe their husband is the head....When you come to a place that you both do not agree..who gets the final say?

And that is really the issue that you're focused upon--"who gets the final say?"  In so focusing on that the real point is missed.

We find ourselves using the same words yet speaking a different language.


V

So you avoid the question....

No, not avoiding the question...it's actually been addressed more than once, especially by Phoebe and similarly by Wiley.

The way in which you have posed the question makes it somewhat awkward for me to answer because I can only answer from the perspective of a husband.  Do you want me to answer from that perspective, or would you rather refer back to Phoebe's answer?


V

Just answer!

When it comes to insignificant things we have a race to see who defers to the other first!

When it comes to significant things where we're not in agreement (rarely) we wait, pray, talk...don't move till we have consensus.  No recriminations, no repressed anger or resentments.

It is not Christ-like to dictate to another adult, especially other Believers, especially your wife or husband.


V

THat is where I believe you misunderstand my belief...I never have believed a husband has a right to dictate....He is to love his wife with understanding!

When one person in a marriage relationship (and also in the fellowship of Believers) is the one who "has the final say" then that person is dictating, by definition.

I understand what you say, however, I'm not sure you're understanding what you think you're saying.  Hence, my statement that we seem to be using the same words yet talking different languages.

BTW, you commanded me to answer your question.  You expressed an imperative that I answer the question in the way you asked it.  I submitted to your demand...not because I thought you had the "right" to demand it, but because I wanted to submit to you, a fellow Believer.  Get it?




V

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:35:45

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:12:32
Apollos,

You caught it right off!  You get mana for a good catch.  It is indeed a no-win situation and that is exactly what a oneway submission puts a wife into when the husband has the absolute decision on everything.  She is indeed in a catch-22 situation and, unfortunately, that is also what we put women into today.

I disagree !  It is a win win situation if the woman does what is righteous.  Or else her children would be unclean - I Corinth. 7:14

MysteryMan,

Pray enlighten us how the woman can do that which is righteous and how it is a win-win situation. What are her options and how is she suppose to choose between a rock and a hard place.

blessings

Whatever anyone says, the instructions for wives are that we are to submit to our husbands. One can argue for ever and a day, but the fact is that it is what it says. How we each work out what God tells husbands and wives in our own marriages  is up to us, but for me that says that ultimately my husband is the head whether I or anyone else likes it or not. 

Quote from: Apollos on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 18:16:54

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:35:45

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Tue Jan 27, 2009 - 09:12:32
Apollos,

You caught it right off!  You get mana for a good catch.  It is indeed a no-win situation and that is exactly what a oneway submission puts a wife into when the husband has the absolute decision on everything.  She is indeed in a catch-22 situation and, unfortunately, that is also what we put women into today.

I disagree !  It is a win win situation if the woman does what is righteous.  Or else her children would be unclean - I Corinth. 7:14

MysteryMan,

Pray enlighten us how the woman can do that which is righteous and how it is a win-win situation. What are her options and how is she suppose to choose between a rock and a hard place.

blessings

No matter what group or church teaches on whatever sujbect.  And no matter that this man the husband of this woman goes to this type of believing church.  The only responsibility the woman has is to God , because her act of not getting an abortion , is a righteous act.   Its always the which is right in the eyes of God.  God , who is all righeousness, will recognize the righteoussness.  Her act not to follow the will of her husband will not be considered an unrighteous act by God, because of the unrighteous suggestion by her husband.

1 Peter 3:3-7

Don't just concern yourselves with making yourselves look nice on the outside, such as plaiting your hair, wearing gold jewelry and dressing in fancy clothes. Instead, let the part that makes you look fancy be the inner self, the imperishability of a calm and tranquil spirit which is not angry or prone to temper. This is very expensive in God's eyes. In this way too, once upon a time, the holy women who fixed their hopes on God adorned themselves. They supported [hupotasso] their own husbands, in the way that Sarah paid attention to [hupokouo] Abraham calling him "sir". You are her children if you do the right thing and you're not afraid of intimidation [ptoesis]. Husbands, the above goes for you too [homoios]. Live with [sunoikeo] your wives in the realization the the wife has the weaker [asthenes] livelihood [skeuos] (in a disadvantaged position for getting a living). Show her honor. She is a joint-heir with you in the spiritual favor in life. If  you don't, your prayers will be blocked [egkopto]!
-TSNT


Sounds like mutual submission, to me!

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Jan 29, 2009 - 11:26:06
1 Peter 3:3-7

Don't just concern yourselves with making yourselves look nice on the outside, such as plaiting your hair, wearing gold jewelry and dressing in fancy clothes. Instead, let the part that makes you look fancy be the inner self, the imperishability of a calm and tranquil spirit which is not angry or prone to temper. This is very expensive in God's eyes. In this way too, once upon a time, the holy women who fixed their hopes on God adorned themselves. They supported [hupotasso] their own husbands, in the way that Sarah paid attention to [hupokouo] Abraham calling him "sir". You are her children if you do the right thing and you're not afraid of intimidation [ptoesis]. Husbands, the above goes for you too [homoios]. Live with [sunoikeo] your wives in the realization the the wife has the weaker [asthenes] livelihood [skeuos] (in a disadvantaged position for getting a living). Show her honor. She is a joint-heir with you in the spiritual favor in life. If  you don't, your prayers will be blocked [egkopto]!
-TSNT


Sounds like mutual submission, to me!

Not to me !

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Jan 29, 2009 - 11:26:06
1 Peter 3:3-7

Don't just concern yourselves with making yourselves look nice on the outside, such as plaiting your hair, wearing gold jewelry and dressing in fancy clothes. Instead, let the part that makes you look fancy be the inner self, the imperishability of a calm and tranquil spirit which is not angry or prone to temper. This is very expensive in God's eyes. In this way too, once upon a time, the holy women who fixed their hopes on God adorned themselves. They supported [hupotasso] their own husbands, in the way that Sarah paid attention to [hupokouo] Abraham calling him "sir". You are her children if you do the right thing and you're not afraid of intimidation [ptoesis]. Husbands, the above goes for you too [homoios]. Live with [sunoikeo] your wives in the realization the the wife has the weaker [asthenes] livelihood [skeuos] (in a disadvantaged position for getting a living). Show her honor. She is a joint-heir with you in the spiritual favor in life. If  you don't, your prayers will be blocked [egkopto]!
-TSNT


Sounds like mutual submission, to me!

Hupakouo: 5219 uJpakouvw Hupakouo (hoop-ak-oo'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb
from (5259) and (191)

to listen, to harken
of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
to harken to a command
to obey, be obedient to, submit to

KJV Word Count (Hupakouo #5219) obey  18
be obedient to  2
hearken  1