Christian Forums

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

You're not alone.  I've done some research on it, but you may find this to be a helpful, but brief, explanation of what appears to many to be a more accurate explanation of what happens to those who shuffle off this mortal coil outside the grace of Christ.

It is interesting to hear people say how great a being is who will keep the vast majority of souls in existence for the sole purpose of suffering the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity while those few who do make it spend eternity singing songs about how wonderful he is.

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

I guess you don't understand the OT very well. Maybe alittle more time in the Bible would help.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4

I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4

I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?

I always wanted to know how long a New York minute was ?   Is it + or - a normal minute ?

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4

I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?

Right now I really don't care what anyone said.

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:47:55

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

I guess you don't understand the OT very well. Maybe alittle more time in the Bible would help.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

You know, I hear people tell me that all the time.  Do you think the reason I do not listen to people like you,  is because I am deaf ?     

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 12:33:57

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4

I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?

Right now I really don't care what anyone said.

Well, some of us care what you say, especially over a tragedy such as this and the speculation that our loving, merciful and just heavenly Father keeps folks around just to see them suffer unspeakable agony throughout all eternity.

Remember Matthew 10:28:  Stop being afraid of those who kill the body but can't kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

Amen!  God will call and we will answer. 

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

Why do you think that?  They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.

Quote from: Mere Nick on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 13:08:58

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 12:33:57

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4

I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?

Right now I really don't care what anyone said.

Well, some of us care what you say, especially over a tragedy such as this and the speculation that our loving, merciful and just heavenly Father keeps folks around just to see them suffer unspeakable agony throughout all eternity.

Remember Matthew 10:28:  Stop being afraid of those who kill the body but can't kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

And the soul that sins shall die.

Whether we like it or not if we're not saved at the time of our death we are lost and doomed.

The man would not have suffered his house to be broken into... if he had known what hour the thief will come.

You see BigDog, if you hold out long enough there's always someone who will agree with you. :)

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:18:05
You see BigDog, if you hold out long enough there's always someone who will agree with you. :)

I wonder if the wait was worth it ?  LOL

Thank the both of you guys. I'm always happy to be assoicated with a humble, God fearing man.

God bless 

Quote from: Bonnie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:03:29

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

Why do you think that?  They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.

Bonnie, God is a righteous judge.  But what bigdog said is just wrong !  The Word tells us that many are called.  The Word does not say "all" are called.

Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do.  Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:38:20
Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do.  Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.

A problem with many humans, is "claiming authority" on a topic in scripture that is up for interpretation. I was raised into a "fiery hell" eternity concept...later in my years of study...I now believe the non-believers simply cease to exist. Flesh Death--->Throne Judgement--->Perma death. Yet I could be wrong, and am ok with that, as I have limited resources to find a conclusion.

Quote from: Mere Nick on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:53:21

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

You're not alone.  I've done some research on it, but you may find this to be a helpful, but brief, explanation of what appears to many to be a more accurate explanation of what happens to those who shuffle off this mortal coil outside the grace of Christ.

It is interesting to hear people say how great a being is who will keep the vast majority of souls in existence for the sole purpose of suffering the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity while those few who do make it spend eternity singing songs about how wonderful he is.

I reckon I'm gonna slap you five with that one...umm..hmm..

The "eternal punishment" is a punishment that is forever. Separation from God. The end of them...death.... a "thing of nought"....hell is.......annihilation. The antithesis of eternal life!

Good article...umm...hmm. 

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:38:20

Quote from: Bonnie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:03:29

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

Why do you think that?  They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.

Bonnie, God is a righteous judge.  But what bigdog said is just wrong !  The Word tells us that many are called.  The Word does not say "all" are called.

Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do.  Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.

I don't see anything wrong with Rob's post.  All he's saying is that it's of the upmost importance to be ready when God calls you out of this life.
How can anyone condemn that?

We don't know if they were all saved people on that plane or not but God does.  The point is to be ready, for in such an hour as you think not the Son of Man is coming.

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."


Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice"  -- Those who hear his voice - "know Jesus"

Quote from: Bonnie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:03:08

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:38:20

Quote from: Bonnie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:03:29

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42

Quote from: Bigdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25

By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
  Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.

This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
  The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering.  Sorry, I don't buy it !

Why do you think that?  They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.

Bonnie, God is a righteous judge.  But what bigdog said is just wrong !  The Word tells us that many are called.  The Word does not say "all" are called.

Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do.  Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.

I don't see anything wrong with Rob's post.  All he's saying is that it's of the upmost importance to be ready when God calls you out of this life.
How can anyone condemn that?

We don't know if they were all saved people on that plane or not but God does.  The point is to be ready, for in such an hour as you think not the Son of Man is coming.

It's the "eternity of pain and suffering" bit.  OneLung said he couldn't get his head around that one.  I showed him that he is not alone.  Only in Christ is there eternal life.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

Sorry I will believe the Bible over some pdf.


I agree with the OP.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, His Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. When one repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, that person's sin are covered in His blood. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Quote from: sopranette on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice.   He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him. 

This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus.   This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.   

The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin.  All of us sin.  And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world.  All the sins of the world.  The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin.  Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.

The standard is not in just knowing him !   And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.

Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here.  Not a long conversation about generalities.

To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep.    If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  This is the standard by which the OP used .  And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called.  God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.  But not all will.  And that is not because they are evil people.  It is because they were not called.

Murder is not an unforgivable sin.  If it were, both King David and the Apostle Paul would be separate from God forever.  We know that is not the case.  God forgave them both.  Whether an eternity separated from God involves an eternity of pain and suffering is debateable, and has been debated here a few times.  I'm leaning towards no eternity in pain, myself, but I don't know for sure.

love,

sopranette

Sin unto death -- I John 5:16

Sin unto death is an unforgivable sin.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God.  Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

No murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15  

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:33

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God.  Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Bonnie

Who was under the old covenant ?  Israel - right ?   But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ?   So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?

Quote from: sopranette on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, His Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. When one repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, that person's sin are covered in His blood. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Amen!

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:16:05

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:33

Quote from: Mystery Man on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21

Quote from: kensington on Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God.  Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Bonnie

Who was under the old covenant ?  Israel - right ?   But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ?   So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?

Israel was God's chosen people but not all of them were saved due to rebellion.
They did as God told them to, wiping out the enemy's of God.  I cannot say more.