Christian Forums

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:23:02
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.

Saul already had the authority to persecute them.  He didn't have to falsely accuse them.  He had authority to put them in jail for  them saying they were a christian.  The authority of Saul was limited to just putting them in jail, along with persecuting them.  From that point the law , which btw included the chief priests, could put them to death without any hearing or trial.   We tend to think with our modern day minds when we read the Word.  Some might think that Saul had to go in and falsely accuse them.  Which is not true.  You don't read about any hearing or trial.  So Saul didn't have to say one thing.

And verse 11 is after verse 10 when they are already killed .

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:28:51

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:23:02
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.

Saul already had the authority to persecute them.  He didn't have to falsely accuse them.  He had authority to put them in jail for  them saying they were a christian.  The authority of Saul was limited to just putting them in jail, along with persecuting them.  From that point the law , which btw included the chief priests, could put them to death without any hearing or trial.   We tend to think with our modern day minds when we read the Word.  Some might think that Saul had to go in and falsely accuse them.  Which is not true.  You don't read about any hearing or trial.  So Saul didn't have to say one thing.

And verse 11 is after verse 10 when they are already killed .

So, if I understand you, you are saying that by the law then, he committed no crime, he was just doing his job. And to say that he was a murderer in "Gods eyes" is simply a modern day assumption and personal opinion.

Onelung

In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs.  Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs.  Which they would not.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung

In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs.  Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs.  Which they would not.

It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:37:17

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:28:51

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:23:02
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.

Saul already had the authority to persecute them.  He didn't have to falsely accuse them.  He had authority to put them in jail for  them saying they were a christian.  The authority of Saul was limited to just putting them in jail, along with persecuting them.  From that point the law , which btw included the chief priests, could put them to death without any hearing or trial.   We tend to think with our modern day minds when we read the Word.  Some might think that Saul had to go in and falsely accuse them.  Which is not true.  You don't read about any hearing or trial.  So Saul didn't have to say one thing.

And verse 11 is after verse 10 when they are already killed .

So, if I understand you, you are saying that by the law then, he committed no crime, he was just doing his job. And to say that he was a murderer in "Gods eyes" is simply a modern day assumption and personal opinion.

He was given authority by the chief priest to put them in jail.  Which he did.  

There is no murder here.  It would be no different than a police officer arresting someone, and they being put to death according to the law.  Not in our day, but then in this day.  There was no trial, no hearing.  And there was no murder.  Saul didn't killl anyone.  Neither did King David.

Saul was a Jew, and he knew the law of the Jews.  He also knew if he was a murderer, he could and should be put to death according to the law of the Jews.  I know of nowhere in scripture that Saul , being a Jew broke the law of God.  He was a Jew, circumcised the eighth day.

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:42:20

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung

In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs.  Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs.  Which they would not.
[/quote

It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.

Impossible

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:45:13

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:42:20

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung

In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs.  Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs.  Which they would not.
[/quote

It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.

Impossible

I never was very good at mediation, which is why I chose forensics. 

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:48:47

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:45:13

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:42:20

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung

In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs.  Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs.  Which they would not.
[/quote

It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.

Impossible

I never was very good at mediation, which is why I choose forensics. 

LOL ,  a good choice , especially if you happy with it.  :))

Quote from: OneLung on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:54:44

Quote from: sopranette on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.

Just an observation...

He gave evidence against them that they would be killed.  Same thing... the blood is on his hands.

Quote from: sopranette on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.

love,

sopranette

No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching.  It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry. 

I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.

When Jesus was put in prison.  Pilate did an investigation and found Jesus not guilty of any wrong doing.  Pilate asked the Jews what he should do with this man Jesus.  The Jews yelled back crucify him, crucify him.

We also read of the disciples after the death of Jesus, go into hiding because of the fear of the Jews.  Not fear of the Romans, but fear of the Jews.  The Jews had become a part of the law of the land, and they had a voice and some were put into authority.  Such was the case with Saul.

Even on the day of pentecost, Peter stood up and declared - "this same Jesus whom you have crucified".  What Peter was saying, that the Jews were held accountable for the death of Jesus.  They were a voice within the authority of Rome.

Saul had authority to put christians who were followers of Jesus into prison.  This autority was given to him at this time when the Jews were in authority under and within the law of that time.

One who is in authority is doing the law of the land.  And even though they had this authority, they were still Jews.  They kept the customs, even after the death of Jesus, they could not work on a sabbath day.  So the two Mary's came on the first day of the week with spices which is after the seventh day sabbath.

One thing they would not go against, was the customs according to the law.  Murder is one of the ten commandments as I pointed out in a previous post.  Saul would never commit murder, because he knew the Law of God about murder.  He also knew the customs of the Jews and would not break any of those customs.  

So one thing we can count on, is that Saul would not murder anyone.  Those who called themselves Christians , were in his eyes, heritics, and breakers of the law of the land. So with authority he put them in prison.  The chief priests had them put to death.  Which is no different then when they put Jesus to death.   Even though Pilate found him inoccent of any wrong doing, just the Jews crying out crucify him numerous times, was all it took to have him crucified.  This shows you the influence and authority of the law of the land that the Jews have become accustomed too.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:19:48

Quote from: sopranette on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.

love,

sopranette

No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching.  It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry. 

You are so correct , you have no idea how much so.

I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.


I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation.  Maybe try again??

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:19:48

Quote from: sopranette on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.

love,

sopranette

No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching.  It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry. 

I've gotta say, this has been the easiest debate I have participated in this forum to date.  Now let's let him grab at straws.

love,

sopranette

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.


I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation.  Maybe try again??

Oh, straw grab and fail.  Never mind.

love,

sopranette

After reading this thread a few times...I have a question...

If Paul or David did commit murder....why did the law not punish them?

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.


I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation.  Maybe try again??

You took my cd in broad daylight and you scratched it!

Quote from: Gary on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 12:02:42

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.


I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation.  Maybe try again??

You took my cd in broad daylight and you scratched it!

Who are you calling a broad??

Hmmm.... a thought comes to mind... 

Quote from: Gary on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 12:02:42

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.


I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation.  Maybe try again??

You took my cd in broad daylight and you scratched it!

Yeah.... but I am still NOT a thief, cause you left it out where I could get at it!  So there!   

Quote from: grace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 11:50:46
After reading this thread a few times...I have a question...

If Paul or David did commit murder....why did the law not punish them?

He was the Law.. David was the King.  He was the one who handed down the justice.  That is why Nathan went to him, presented the scenario of the Lamb and allowed David to speak what he would do if they brought the man to him..  Nathan said "Thou art the man"...  God punished David. 

In Paul's case... the LAW was who was murdering Christians.. the Law was who had crucified Jesus, the Law was corrupt.  Paul came face to face with grace on the road to Damascus.  His sins were punished by the law... Jesus was put to death for him. 

I'm sure there have been many sinners who repented of sin before God who never faced the judgment of the Law for their crimes. 

According to Mysterymans' logic...   If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed.  Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed. 

The truck killed the child.  

But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder.  You are guilty of blood, when you murder.   As David did.


Psalm 51(King James Version)

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic...   If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed.  Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed. 

The truck killed the child.  

But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder.  You are guilty of blood, when you murder.   As David did.


Psalm 51(King James Version)

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

I never drew a scenerio of someone who murders and then claim it is not murder.

You can not draw up a false premise and make such false claims.  It would never hold up in a court of law.

King David was a King , with authority, as was Saul.  One in authority has every right to use their authority.  Even if it is used with a false pretense , it is the false pretense that is the problem that God dealt with in both cases.

God punished King David, but he did not punish him for murder.  That would have resulted in him being put to death.

God punished King David for adultery and his evil way of how he used Uriah .  Uriah was a solder, and Uriah knew his responsiblity of going to war.  Sometimes you do not come back alive.  Some however do come back alive.  Even King David sending Uriah to war, was not a guarentee that Uriah would die.   A murderer kills his victum with the intent to personnaly kill a person by their own act and deed of the murder.  King David sent Uriah to war.  A soldier in his army.  King David did this all of the time.  This is the authority that he had.  The same with Saul, he had authority to put followers of the way into prison.

What you must remember are two things.  One - these two acts were done under authority of the law of the land and law of King David.  Even though authority can blind one according to the use of the law, none the less, the law makes this act lawful.  King David lawfully had every right to send Uriah to war.   King David had no right to commit adultery with his wife.  This God punished King David for, he was punished for his adultery.  How he ploted to have Uriah killed, was why God punished King David with many wars and no peace from war after this act.  < This was the punishment for his wrong.  If it was for murder, God would have killed King David.

God killed the child born in the adultery.  And as I asked before, does this make God a murderer ? No , of course not.  But God is a righteous judge.  And God didn't punish King David for murder !~

No murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.  That is what the Word of God says, and that is what the Word of God means !

Whoever speaks against the Word of God will be held accountable !

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic...   If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed.  Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed. 

The truck killed the child.  

But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder.  You are guilty of blood, when you murder.   As David did.


Psalm 51(King James Version)

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Not once is the act of murder mentioned !   

Yet, you see something that is not there.

That is because you want something more than what the Word of God offers.  A self willed and self righteous person does this.  You have made yourself greater than God himself.  You are rewritting the Word, because you feel that God made a mistake and thus you give your rendition and declaration.  This is very devilish  !

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic...   If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed.  Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed. 

The truck killed the child.  

But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder.  You are guilty of blood, when you murder.   As David did.


Psalm 51(King James Version)

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

King David had authority.  Your little untruthful story above, sets one who has no authority to put a child in the middle of the street with the intent to be killed.   The key here is - "Authority"

King David sent a soldier to war.  By his authority , as King, sending a soldier to war is not murder !   Evil intent yes, but murder - NO !

Quote from: sopranette on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 11:07:07

Quote from: kensington on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:19:48

Quote from: sopranette on Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.

love,

sopranette

No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching.  It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry. 

I've gotta say, this has been the easiest debate I have participated in this forum to date.  Now let's let him grab at straws.

love,

sopranette

Did you get a blue ribbon or a trophy ?

Why yes, yes I did get a trophy.

love,

sopranette

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 05:32:16

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic...   If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed.  Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed. 

The truck killed the child.  

But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder.  You are guilty of blood, when you murder.   As David did.


Psalm 51(King James Version)

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

King David had authority.  Your little untruthful story above, sets one who has no authority to put a child in the middle of the street with the intent to be killed.   The key here is - "Authority"

King David sent a soldier to war.  By his authority , as King, sending a soldier to war is not murder !   Evil intent yes, but murder - NO !

You are lost... King David did not send him to war, He sent him to be killed.  There in lies the difference.  A difference you evidently refuse to see, or cannot see.   He didn't just send him to war, he sent him to the front lines where he KNEW he would be killed. 

"Now in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah, He had written in the letter, saying "Place Uriah in the front line of the fiercest battle and draw away from him (leave him there alone), so that he may be struck down and die." {II Samuel 11:14-15}

It was premeditated murder on the part of David, by way of war.  He used the weapons of the enemy to kill Uriah, and even wrote in a letter that it was what was to happen.

David was guilty of the Law... "Thou Shall not kill"...  He did kill Uriah, and it was premeditated also.

He repented of "bloodguiltiness" before the LORD, admitting he was guilty of shedding innocent blood.  He was guilty of the death of Uriah.  Nathan told him he was, and he repented of it...   I'm sorry you can't see that.  Sometimes, dense is just dense.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 10:27:47

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 05:32:16

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic...   If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed.  Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed. 

The truck killed the child.  

But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder.  You are guilty of blood, when you murder.   As David did.


Psalm 51(King James Version)

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

King David had authority.  Your little untruthful story above, sets one who has no authority to put a child in the middle of the street with the intent to be killed.   The key here is - "Authority"

King David sent a soldier to war.  By his authority , as King, sending a soldier to war is not murder !   Evil intent yes, but murder - NO !

You are lost... King David did not send him to war, He sent him to be killed.  There in lies the difference.  A difference you evidently refuse to see, or cannot see.   He didn't just send him to war, he sent him to the front lines where he KNEW he would be killed. 

"Now in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah, He had written in the letter, saying "Place Uriah in the front line of the fiercest battle and draw away from him (leave him there alone), so that he may be struck down and die." {II Samuel 11:14-15}

It was premeditated murder on the part of David, by way of war.  He used the weapons of the enemy to kill Uriah, and even wrote in a letter that it was what was to happen.

David was guilty of the Law... "Thou Shall not kill"...  He did kill Uriah, and it was premeditated also.

He repented of "bloodguiltiness" before the LORD, admitting he was guilty of shedding innocent blood.  He was guilty of the death of Uriah.  Nathan told him he was, and he repented of it...   I'm sorry you can't see that.  Sometimes, dense is just dense.

Show me from the Word, where King David "Knew" Uriah would die !  If you can't , then you are not telling the truth !

I am new to this forum but am extremely interested in reading through it and adding my comments.  Mystery Man raises a good question and I am glad to see that there are members here that are not afraid to ask tough questions.  I will be one of them too.

Referencing the OT and whether people that lived then were doomed, I assume because they did not even have the opportunity to know Jesus.  I, too, am curious about this.  First, why did God decide to bring Jesus into the world at that particular time?  Was this all part of His master plan?  What, then, was His plan up until that point with regard to the souls of those who lived before His coming.  Was His decision based on a change of plans, perhaps?  What, then does this suggest?

Jesus came to fulfill the Law, that the people in the OT were living under.  Jesus is the bridge between the Law and the Father.  The people in the OT were living under a different covenent, but those who called out to the Father were saved.

love,

sopranette

Mystery man... I posted it, but you refuse to see the truth when you read it. 

You need to read the whole story, take off the blinders and receive the truth.  The whole story speaks that David not only knew that Uriah would be killed, but that he was counting on it.  That is the reason he sent him to the front, to be killed.

Don't you own a Bible?

I gave you the reference that says David knew he was sending him to his death, and even told Joab, to make sure he was put where he would die.  Read the WORD.  Stop playing this silly game and read the word.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:30
Mystery man... I posted it, but you refuse to see the truth when you read it. 

You need to read the whole story, take off the blinders and receive the truth.  The whole story speaks that David not only knew that Uriah would be killed, but that he was counting on it.  That is the reason he sent him to the front, to be killed.

Don't you own a Bible?

I gave you the reference that says David knew he was sending him to his death, and even told Joab, to make sure he was put where he would die.  Read the WORD.  Stop playing this silly game and read the word.

No you didn't !   Show me the scriptures or scripture that shows us that King David "Knew" that Uriah would die.  And if you can't, then you do not speak the truth.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:11:24

Quote from: kensington on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:30
Mystery man... I posted it, but you refuse to see the truth when you read it. 

You need to read the whole story, take off the blinders and receive the truth.  The whole story speaks that David not only knew that Uriah would be killed, but that he was counting on it.  That is the reason he sent him to the front, to be killed?

Don't you own a Bible?

I gave you the reference that says David knew he was sending him to his death, and even told Joab, to make sure he was put where he would die.  Read the WORD.  Stop playing this silly game and read the word.

No you didn't !   Show me the scriptures or scripture that shows us that King David "Knew" that Uriah would die.  And if you can't, then you do not speak the truth.

II Samuel 11:15

And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten and die.

C'mon now, really.

love,

sopranette

II Samuel 11:16 - "Joab assigned Uriah unto a place where he knew that valiant men were"

II Samuel 11:24 - "some of the king's servants be dead" <  Not all !

How could King David "know" that Uriah would die ?

Uriah was not put with a bunch of weak warriors.  He was put with the best of the best, they were valiant men.  Men that watch each others back.  Men that would die for one another.  Protect one another.  And not all of them died !

So I ask again, How could King David "know" that Uriah would die ?

Answer:  He could not !!

And here is the question that has not been answered.  God punished King David for the evil that he did.  And God did not punish King David for murder.  So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?

I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.

It is because of the different Hebrew words used.  When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death.  But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder

The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel  12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David.  King David was the cause of Uriah's death.  King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !

Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David. 

King David was "Not" a murderer !