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I know that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, but who were these people and why did they have to, or want to, leave Egypt?

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 15:25:05
I know that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, but who were these people and why did they have to, or want to, leave Egypt?

They were the decendents of the sons of Jacob:

Exo 1:1  Now these are the names of the sons of Israel, who came into Egypt (every man and his household came with Jacob):
Exo 1:2  Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah,
Exo 1:3  Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin,
Exo 1:4  Dan and Naphtali, Gad and Asher.
Exo 1:5  And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: and Joseph was in Egypt already.
Exo 1:6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Exo 1:7  And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.
Exo 1:8  Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who knew not Joseph.
Exo 1:9  And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:
Exo 1:10  come, let us deal wisely with them, lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they also join themselves unto our enemies, and fight against us, and get them up out of the land.
Exo 1:11  Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh store-cities, Pithom and Raamses.

They had come there to be taken care of by their sibling Joseph who had been sold by his brothers into slavery and had ultimately elevated himself into Pharoah's household. Jacob and his brothers came into Egypt seeking food because of a severe famine in Canaan. They stayed in Egypt and multiplied greatly and were subjugated by a new Pharoah, until Moses dellivered them. I assume God wanted them back in their promised land.

So they were less then 100 people, all members of the same family who left Palestine and entered Egypt, but didn't like the rules of the new government, so they had to leave and go back.

Did they bring their Jewish belief in one true God with them to Egypt or did that come later?

Only Amun knows.  




(Put down the bricks; I don't believe that Judaism is only an adaptation of Egyptian beliefs.  I was just  ::pokingwithstick::and 

I am asking these questions for two reasons.

1) I have a friend who insists that the original Jews were Egpytians foced out of Egypt for going against prevailing religious beliefs and claiming there is only one God.

2) Reading English translations of the OT gives me a headache. It's even worse than Old English.  I would rather get the story from someone who already has read and researched it.

Monotheism had a brief day in Egypt from about 1364-1347 B.C., about a century after the Exodus.  However, it can be argued that the seeds of monotheism were there with the story of Amun (the unknowable), who was something different from all the other gods and who, it could be said, the other gods were a part of.

Ancient Egyptian religion does have quite a bit in common with the thought-process of the Hebrew religion, but, imho, the most important difference is that it lacks the moral foundation.

Is the Egyption root of that Monotheism the origin of what would become the Hebrew religion?

One Lung, I am in the middle of a study of Genesis in my Monday night Community Bible Study (CBS), and it is my understanding that Abram and his family knew of and worshiped Yahweh.Abram set out from Ur of the Chaldees at the command of God. He set out with his family and entourage to the place God would show him. Through Abram aka later as Abraham, God promised to bless him and his family through Isaac, the son of pomise. Also God promised to bless the whole world through Abraham's descendents.  The Hebrew's were of course later given the Law of Moses.

I don't think Egypt contributed much to the formulation of the Jewish religion.

Getting into the speculative area, in the days of the patriarchs, how many people did God reveal Himself to?  There would seem to be evidence that Abraham was not the only one; could some of these others have influenced the development of Egyptian thought?

Could have, I guess.

Quote from: marc on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 20:42:49
Getting into the speculative area, in the days of the patriarchs, how many people did God reveal Himself to?  There would seem to be evidence that Abraham was not the only one; could some of these others have influenced the development of Egyptian thought?

Perhaps Melchizedek could have been another character who received some degree of divine revelation.

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 20:28:59
One Lung, I am in the middle of a study of Genesis in my Monday night Community Bible Study (CBS), and it is my understanding that Abram and his family knew of and worshiped Yahweh.Abram set out from Ur of the Chaldees at the command of God. He set out with his family and entourage to the place God would show him. Through Abram aka later as Abraham, God promised to bless him and his family through Isaac, the son of pomise. Also God promised to bless the whole world through Abraham's descendents.  The Hebrew's were of course later given the Law of Moses.

I don't think Egypt contributed much to the formulation of the Jewish religion.

I agree with your point in general. However, some of the ritualistic practices of early Judaism mirrored Egyptian religious practices. Sacrificial rituals were similar. And the design of the tabernacle, and later temple, were similar to the design of Egyptian temples. Even the images of cherubim created for the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant were ubiquitous symbols in Egyptian religious art.

Wasn't Abraham a direct decedent of Moses? He supposedly crossed the Euphrates river from the east to migrate into Palestine.

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:34
Wasn't Abraham a direct decedent of Moses?

No.  I think you have the timeline backwards. 

Abraham lived well before Moses.  Abraham's son was Isaac, whose son was Jacob.  Jacob was called Israel.  So, his sons, or Abraham's great grandchildren, were the original "children of Israel."  They and their families migrated to Egypt.

Then, Moses came along over 400 years later.

Abraham was an ancestor of Moses, and of all the Jewish people.

He was from Iraq, but was instructed by God to settle in the land of Canaan.  In this time at least some of the people in Canaan and further east were still followers of the true God.  The king of Salem was a follower of God, as were Rebecca and her family at the time Rebecca married Isaac.  We know however that Rebecca's brother Laban had become a follower of false gods at the time that Jacob was married to his daughters.

By the time the Hebrews left Egypt and returned to the land of Canaan, not one person left in Canaan was a follower of God.  By this time therefore, it would seem that the Jews were the only followers of God left in the world.

Quote from: DCR on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:03:11

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:34
Wasn't Abraham a direct decedent of Moses?

No.  I think you have the timeline backwards. 

Abraham lived well before Moses.  Abraham's son was Isaac, whose son was Jacob.  Jacob was called Israel.  So, his sons, or Abraham's great grandchildren, were the original "children of Israel."  They and their families migrated to Egypt.

Then, Moses came along over 400 years later.

Well, if you're going to insist on a linear reading of time....

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 19:48:15
So they were less then 100 people, all members of the same family who left Palestine and entered Egypt, but didn't like the rules of the new government, so they had to leave and go back.

Not quite.  There may have been less than 100 people who originally travelled to Egypt in the original family.  But, that family and all their descendents where in the hundreds of thousands over 400 years later when they fled Egypt with Moses.

Remember how they were in Egypt to begin with.

Jacob's (Israel's) sons sold their brother Joseph into slavery.  That is how he ended up in Egypt first.  After he gained favor with one of the pharaohs, he achieved some status in the Egyptian kingdom.  This was many years after he was sold into slavery.  At some point, a famine occurred in Palestine, which led the family back there to come to Egypt looking for some means to substain themselves.  It was at that point that Joseph was reunited with his family.  With Joseph being respected in Egypt at that time, his family from Palestine was welcomed into Egypt.  So, they originally prospered there.

However, a later pharaoh did not like this growing Israelite family.  So, they became oppressed and went under bondage.  That sets the stage for the story of Moses and the Israelites migrating from Egypt back into Palestine.

At least, that's my working memory of it.

Quote from: marc on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:11:06

Quote from: DCR on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:03:11

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:34
Wasn't Abraham a direct decedent of Moses?

No.  I think you have the timeline backwards. 

Abraham lived well before Moses.  Abraham's son was Isaac, whose son was Jacob.  Jacob was called Israel.  So, his sons, or Abraham's great grandchildren, were the original "children of Israel."  They and their families migrated to Egypt.

Then, Moses came along over 400 years later.

Well, if you're going to insist on a linear reading of time....

Perhaps they were "others."

Sorry for the confusion I meant to say that Abraham a direct decedent of Noah.

Quote from: Pokhara on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:07:15
Abraham was an ancestor of Moses, and of all the Jewish people.

He was from Iraq, but was instructed by God to settle in the land of Canaan.  In this time at least some of the people in Canaan and further east were still followers of the true God.  The king of Salem was a follower of God, as were Rebecca and her family at the time Rebecca married Isaac.  We know however that Rebecca's brother Laban had become a follower of false gods at the time that Jacob was married to his daughters.

By the time the Hebrews left Egypt and returned to the land of Canaan, not one person left in Canaan was a follower of God.  By this time therefore, it would seem that the Jews were the only followers of God left in the world.

So, they took their belief in "one God" to Egypt with them. This would discredit my historian friends claim that the Hebrew religion is a direct spinoff of Egyptian pagan beliefs.  Yes?

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:22:45So, they took their belief in "one God" to Egypt with them. This would discredit my historian friends claim that the Hebrew religion is a direct spinoff of Egyptian pagan beliefs.  Yes?

I believe so.  Remember that the Egyptian beliefs and worship of their gods were at odds with the Hebrew God.  If there was any Egyptian influence on the Israelites at all, it was a tendency for the Israelites to run astray of worshiping their one God by following after Egyptian gods.  Remember the incident at Sinai while Moses was receiving the Law from God on the mountain when the Israelites became restless and made for themselves a golden calf to worship.  They were arguably falling back on Egyptian worship practices at that point.

The one God of Israel actually ordered the people to purge themselves of the pagan influences, if you'll recall ("You shall have no other gods before Me... no graven images..." etc.)

There was always one God who was working with the Hebrews.  But, their challenge was to what extent they were being influenced to follow after other gods worshiped by other peoples (whether it be Egyptians, Canaanites, or whoever else).

Quote from: mike on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:09:04

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 20:28:59
One Lung, I am in the middle of a study of Genesis in my Monday night Community Bible Study (CBS), and it is my understanding that Abram and his family knew of and worshiped Yahweh.Abram set out from Ur of the Chaldees at the command of God. He set out with his family and entourage to the place God would show him. Through Abram aka later as Abraham, God promised to bless him and his family through Isaac, the son of pomise. Also God promised to bless the whole world through Abraham's descendents.  The Hebrew's were of course later given the Law of Moses.

I don't think Egypt contributed much to the formulation of the Jewish religion.

I agree with your point in general. However, some of the ritualistic practices of early Judaism mirrored Egyptian religious practices. Sacrificial rituals were similar. And the design of the tabernacle, and later temple, were similar to the design of Egyptian temples. Even the images of cherubim created for the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant were ubiquitous symbols in Egyptian religious art.

But all of the details for the tabernacle, etc were all from God directly to Moses, including the specifications for the ark of the covenant.

Quote from: Jaime on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 12:04:43

Quote from: mike on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:09:04

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 20:28:59
One Lung, I am in the middle of a study of Genesis in my Monday night Community Bible Study (CBS), and it is my understanding that Abram and his family knew of and worshiped Yahweh.Abram set out from Ur of the Chaldees at the command of God. He set out with his family and entourage to the place God would show him. Through Abram aka later as Abraham, God promised to bless him and his family through Isaac, the son of pomise. Also God promised to bless the whole world through Abraham's descendents.  The Hebrew's were of course later given the Law of Moses.

I don't think Egypt contributed much to the formulation of the Jewish religion.

I agree with your point in general. However, some of the ritualistic practices of early Judaism mirrored Egyptian religious practices. Sacrificial rituals were similar. And the design of the tabernacle, and later temple, were similar to the design of Egyptian temples. Even the images of cherubim created for the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant were ubiquitous symbols in Egyptian religious art.

But all of the details for the tabernacle, etc were all from God directly to Moses, including the specifications for the ark of the covenant.

Right. So why the similarities?

One possible answer is that God approached them where they happened to be. Egyptian styled rituals were what the Israelites knew about being religious, so maybe God used that as a starting place.

Could be Mike.

At this point, it may be helpful to have Daniel Jackson decipher all those Egyptian hieroglyphs.  :)

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 15:25:05
I know that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, but who were these people and why did they have to, or want to, leave Egypt?

How fast can I get myself into how much trouble here...

All right, without any particular organization, spilling out of my brain in seemingly random order:

Jews isn't the right word, it would represent less than half the group.  Israelite would be closer, but the best word would be Hebrew, since that's what they called themselves prior to living in Egypt.

The Hebrews were a group of nomadic tribes of Semitic descent hailing from semi-arid area west of the Euphrates and East of Jordan.  Their continued existence depended on herdsmanship, not agriculture.  When times were lean, they became accomplished raiders of the agriculturally based civilizations at their west.  Euphrates and the advanced civilization to the East prevented them from moving Eastward.  The word Hebrew means "descendent of Eber."  Abram is plural of Eber, and could be either the same person, a descendant named after great-grandaddy, or even a clan or tribe title.

A supervolcano erupted in the Mediterranean destroying the Minoan civilization and causing the immigration of large numbers of people known as "the Sea Peoples" into Egypt and the coast of Canaan.  The Egyptians repelled them as invaders for the most part.  Those settling in Canaan founded 5 cities and became the people you know as the Philistines in your Bible.  The eruption also changed the climate in the Middle East to such a degree that the southern 2/3 of the area between Jordan & Euphrates would no longer sustain the herds of CATTLE that the Hebrews, and many other Semitic groups living in the area depended on for their livelihoods.

These people were forced to move, which wasn't a big deal, since most of them were nomads anyway.  Mostly they moved west over Jordan.

Biblical Abraham/Abram was a resident of the city of Ur, though his family still depended on herdsmanship we can ascertain from the Bible.  Ur was a coastal city built by Sumerians, but Abram is a Semite, so he may have been a trader with his HQ there.  The Sumerians had mostly integrated with the Semitic culture by this time anyway, though.  Abram's family was wealthy.

The dryer climate caused the swampy area that existed near Ur (& from which most of the cities exports came) to disappear within a few generations, and may have even caused the coastline to change, making it farther from the Sea (the Persian Gulf).  Ur was in decline.

Abram was apparently among the last to leave, as his Uncle already had made new headquarters in the mountains to the West, just off what is now the Dead Sea area.  The Dead Sea wasn't there at that point though.  The mountains descended into a plain, to the east of the Fault line that the Jordan river runs in, where 3 cities were.  2 of them are the infamous Sodom & Gomorrah.  The area his uncle settled would later be Edom and Moab.

Haran means "the area of the mountains."  There was also a city by this name up near Armenia which Biblical scholars like to say is where Abram's uncle was.  Ignore them.  Abraham didn't walk the extra 2500 miles to Canaan, he took the well established road across the fledgling desert, and probably eventually took the mountain pass just south of Mt Nebo, crossing Jordan and coming to Jericho before heading into the Negev.  Abram's father, and household arrived somewhere near Mt Seir. 

From here Abraham heard the Call to continue over Jordan into the promised land.  He also took his uncle's son, his nephew Lot with him into the plain, abandoning the safety and strength of the mountain fortresses.  At the LORDs direction, he scouted the whole of Canaan, being promised everything he could lay eyes on.

He eventually traveled south and established Hebron (the area of Eber), negotiated a treaty with the closest Philistine king (Abimelech) & dug some wells to water his herds, which apparently became so substantial that the area could no longer sustain them, and he had to send Lot off to the East of Jordan (back to his dad).  Lot settled in Sodom and got himself taken captive.

Abraham displayed impressive military skill in mobilizing a guerilla force, tracking and overtaking his enemy by night, and effectively rear-guarding a superior force.  He then created a large amount of goodwill in the region by giving back the wealth of the plundered cities, minus 10% that he gave to the Jebusite priest-king who controlled the mountains of middle Canaan.

At some point he also traveled down to Egypt briefly, or perhaps just dwelt among the Philistines on the coastal plain.  Whichever way it was, he had problems with the locals and had to move away.

His descendants remained in the Negev and multiplied, until famine forced them to seek refuge in Egypt, where the agriculture was based not on rain and runoff, but on the flood cycle of the Nile, and was immune to famine.

At some point, many of those Semites who had been forced to leave their normal stomping grounds had landed in Egypt.  In fact, they briefly seized lower Egypt.  Look up "Hyksos" in a good Encyclopedia for more information.  At any rate, the native Egyptians hated herdsmen in general, and weren't too fond of Semites in general.

Through providence, Abraham's descendant Joseph, a Semite and heir to substantial herds came to be the 2nd most powerful man in Egypt, and in fact executed an economic coup during the famine that left the local Egyptians the property of their Pharoah, rather than just his willing subjects.

Joseph moved his whole family to Goshen, a fertile part of Egypt where they wouldn't clash with the locals.  4 generations passed, and the new king decided to do something about the problem with all the Semites in his country.  He created an economy based on slave labor.

This of course didn't go over well with the people who were the slaves, and that's where Moses comes in.  Moses was a member of a priestly family within his people, and was educated in Pharoah's own palace.  Then he found his roots and got himself kicked out of the palace and the country.

He went to Midian and set up shop as a herdsman, married the daughter of the local priest, and became Jethro's heir and student.  Having learned the nomad life all over again, and perfected his job as a priest, he took his newfound skills back to Egypt to liberate his countrymen.

It seems that he also liberated a lot of other Semites who weren't necessarily his relatives, because it's impossible for 40 people to turn into 2 million in 4 generations.

And that is who the Israelites are.

Quote from: mike on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:09:04

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 20:28:59
One Lung, I am in the middle of a study of Genesis in my Monday night Community Bible Study (CBS), and it is my understanding that Abram and his family knew of and worshiped Yahweh.Abram set out from Ur of the Chaldees at the command of God. He set out with his family and entourage to the place God would show him. Through Abram aka later as Abraham, God promised to bless him and his family through Isaac, the son of pomise. Also God promised to bless the whole world through Abraham's descendents.  The Hebrew's were of course later given the Law of Moses.

I don't think Egypt contributed much to the formulation of the Jewish religion.

I agree with your point in general. However, some of the ritualistic practices of early Judaism mirrored Egyptian religious practices. Sacrificial rituals were similar. And the design of the tabernacle, and later temple, were similar to the design of Egyptian temples. Even the images of cherubim created for the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant were ubiquitous symbols in Egyptian religious art.

Cherubim were throughout the whole middle east.  The Phoenician kings used them as their emblem.

Someone's been doing his research. 

Very interesting reading, Jarod.

Quote from: DCR on Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 23:19:56
Someone's been doing his research. 

Very interesting reading, Jarod.

Yes. Thank you. 

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Mar 19, 2009 - 08:13:43

Quote from: DCR on Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 23:19:56
Someone's been doing his research. 

Very interesting reading, Jarod.

Yes. Thank you. 

Ooh very good read

> who were those people:
They were the people of Abraham, Izhak and Jacob (people of Israel)

why did they have to, or want to, leave Egypt:
> That's simple. They were slaves in Egypt - Now... Who wants to be a slave? 

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Mar 17, 2009 - 21:09:38It seems that he also liberated a lot of other Semites who weren't necessarily his relatives, because it's impossible for 40 people to turn into 2 million in 4 generations.

Where do you get 40 people and 4 generations?

Quote
Genesis 46:26 All the persons belonging to Jacob who came into Egypt, who were his own descendants, not including Jacob's sons' wives, were sixty-six persons in all. 27 And the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in Egypt, were two. All the persons of the house of Jacob who came into Egypt were seventy.

QuoteExodus 12:40 The time that the people of Israel lived in Egypt was 430 years. 41 At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.

There are a lot more than 4 generations within 430 years.  If you figure an average child-bearing age of 25 years, that would translate to about 17 generations.  If you figure that the number of descendants doubles from the original 70 with each generation... a couple of million at the end of 430 years is not an unreasonable number.

Apologies, 70 is correct, not 40.

However, four generations is correct, and comes from here:

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

Notice that 400 years is equated with 4 generations here.  This is not a typo.  Joseph lived to 110 years old, and said his years were "few and hard" compared to his forefathers.

110 years is also a culturally significant age for the Egyptians.  It is the Egyptian "age of wisdom."  4 Generations should equal 440 years.  430 is only ten years shy of that number.

True about the Bible's use of the word "generation" there.  But, I was thinking more in terms of average child-bearing age and calculating how many potential descendents could exist after 430 years of... being fruitful and multiplying.

And, I only figured in a factor of 2, which may be conservative, if families are averaging 7-10 kids each (don't know if it was that many).  Even if you say that families were averaging five kids each... just start doing the math.  That means that each of my five kids may have five kids each... which gives me 25 grandkids... 125 great grandkids... and so on.

The text may be assuming that the time span of a generation is a whole life time (~100 or 110 years if that's the case).  But, someone that age could potentially have great and even perhaps great great grandchildren at that point.

My point is that exponential growth is possible with each generation... which explains a growth from 70 to ~2 million after 430 years time.

At the risk of incurring further wrath, I'll just say that I don't believe that any of the "years" listed in Genesis are solar years the way we measure them.

The Egyptians were mathematically advanced enough to figure solar years, and still didn't use them as an everyday measurement.  The Hebrews weren't that advanced, and didn't have a culture where the sun was significant, as it was in Egypt.

The lunar cycle would have been useful to them for trade reasons as well as for agriculture, but the easiest, most practical, and most intuitive measurement would have been flood cycles of the Nile, at the time this was written.

General information, can't vouch for the source, except to say that its part of a developed web curriculum:
http://www.flowofhistory.com/units/pre/2/fc11

Long story short, 4 generations is a better estimator than 430 years, because we don't know what they're really measuring 430 of.  I'd guess they were there something like 160 - 250 (solar) years.