Christian Forums

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered.  God punished King David for the evil that he did.  And God did not punish King David for murder.  So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?

I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.

It is because of the different Hebrew words used.  When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death.  But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder

The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel  12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David.  King David was the cause of Uriah's death.  King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !

Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David. 

King David was "Not" a murderer !

Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and  either way  he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.

Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.

everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Quote from: Mere Nick on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:53:21

Quote from: OneLung on Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering.  Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.

You're not alone.  I've done some research on it, but you may find this to be a helpful, but brief, explanation of what appears to many to be a more accurate explanation of what happens to those who shuffle off this mortal coil outside the grace of Christ.

It is interesting to hear people say how great a being is who will keep the vast majority of souls in existence for the sole purpose of suffering the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity while those few who do make it spend eternity singing songs about how wonderful he is.

God tells us about hell he is not a man that he should lie.

why not read what he says.

(Isaiah 64:24, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 5:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9, Jude 7, 2 Peter 2:4, Luke 16:19-31, Mark 9:43-48). 

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered.  God punished King David for the evil that he did.  And God did not punish King David for murder.  So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?

I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.

It is because of the different Hebrew words used.  When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death.  But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder

The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel  12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David.  King David was the cause of Uriah's death.  King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !

Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David. 

King David was "Not" a murderer !

Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and  either way  he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.

Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.

everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.

Chosenone

As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves  -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie.  For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.

The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?

Those who say yes, are deceived.  The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them.  None.  There is no forgiveness for murder.

As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah.  But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill

King David did not murder Uriah.  He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed.  In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle.  In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die.  While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.   

Chosenone, this is not murder !   Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not.  In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning.  He is a liar and a murderer.  WE all agree where this liar and  murderer is headed, correct ?

IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?

King David was not a murderer.  Saul was not a murderer.   This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth.  Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife.  If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject.  If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.

We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true.  King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) !   If he did, then God would have put King David to death.  God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David.  What David did was wrong and it was evil.  And God punished David for this evil.  But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.

False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive.  Some have come to believe these false doctorines.  They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them.  It is time for the truth.  And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.

God Bless

Quote from: cwestra on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 11:42:12
I am new to this forum but am extremely interested in reading through it and adding my comments.  Mystery Man raises a good question and I am glad to see that there are members here that are not afraid to ask tough questions.  I will be one of them too.

Referencing the OT and whether people that lived then were doomed, I assume because they did not even have the opportunity to know Jesus.  I, too, am curious about this.  First, why did God decide to bring Jesus into the world at that particular time?  Was this all part of His master plan?  What, then, was His plan up until that point with regard to the souls of those who lived before His coming.  Was His decision based on a change of plans, perhaps?  What, then does this suggest?

When is not important.  But the fact that God sent his Son into the world so that he could be the saviour of the world.  The sins of the world - past, present and future.   The greatest sin that is carried upon all of mankind, is the sin of Adam.  Our redemption to be saved from death unto life.

We all sin, but our sins do not stop us from eternal life.  What God did throug Christ on the cross and his resurrection accomplishe the cleansing me of all my sins and especially the sin of death by the sin of Adam.  The only two sins that are not forgivable is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and murder.  All of those who lived and died in the OT have been given life, eternal life.  God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.  Those in the OT didn't even know that there was going to be a Jesus Christ.  The prophets prophesied of a messiah, but those outside of Israel knew nothing whatsoever.  God is not a respector of persons.  God saved the world, and the only consequence are the two unforgivable sins.  If God blots out one's name out of the book of life, then they are headed to the second death, the lake of fire.

God Bless

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:39:35

Quote from: cwestra on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 11:42:12
I am new to this forum but am extremely interested in reading through it and adding my comments.  Mystery Man raises a good question and I am glad to see that there are members here that are not afraid to ask tough questions.  I will be one of them too.

Referencing the OT and whether people that lived then were doomed, I assume because they did not even have the opportunity to know Jesus.  I, too, am curious about this.  First, why did God decide to bring Jesus into the world at that particular time?  Was this all part of His master plan?  What, then, was His plan up until that point with regard to the souls of those who lived before His coming.  Was His decision based on a change of plans, perhaps?  What, then does this suggest?

When is not important.  But the fact that God sent his Son into the world so that he could be the saviour of the world.  The sins of the world - past, present and future.   The greatest sin that is carried upon all of mankind, is the sin of Adam.  Our redemption to be saved from death unto life.

We all sin, but our sins do not stop us from eternal life.  What God did throug Christ on the cross and his resurrection accomplishe the cleansing me of all my sins and especially the sin of death by the sin of Adam.  The only two sins that are not forgivable is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and murder.  All of those who lived and died in the OT have been given life, eternal life.  God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.  Those in the OT didn't even know that there was going to be a Jesus Christ.  The prophets prophesied of a messiah, but those outside of Israel knew nothing whatsoever.  God is not a respector of persons.  God saved the world, and the only consequence are the two unforgivable sins.  If God blots out one's name out of the book of life, then they are headed to the second death, the lake of fire.

God Bless

I don't believe you will find a single Christian on these forums who will agree with you that David did not commit murder... unless they be an unlearned babe in Christ.

Your doctrine sounds a lot like the Mormon belief in a twisted kind of way.

Bonnie

You have free will to believe as you will.  And you have free will to judge, as you have done here in this last post of yours.  But the truth is still the truth. 

Babes in the word are unskillful in the scriptures.  And the blind will lead the blind into a ditch. 

And even if I do not find one person to agree with me , that King David did not commit murder.  The truth still stands far above anything you claim.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 06:29:28
Bonnie

You have free will to believe as you will.  And you have free will to judge, as you have done here in this last post of yours.  But the truth is still the truth. 

Babes in the word are unskillful in the scriptures.  And the blind will lead the blind into a ditch. 

And even if I do not find one person to agree with me , that King David did not commit murder.  The truth still stands far above anything you claim.

Then where do your beliefs come from? You seem to be the only one who doesn't and won't even consider the truth.

Quote from: Bonnie on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 06:44:15

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 06:29:28
Bonnie

You have free will to believe as you will.  And you have free will to judge, as you have done here in this last post of yours.  But the truth is still the truth. 

Babes in the word are unskillful in the scriptures.  And the blind will lead the blind into a ditch. 

And even if I do not find one person to agree with me , that King David did not commit murder.  The truth still stands far above anything you claim.

Then where do your beliefs come from? You seem to be the only one who doesn't and won't even consider the truth.

By your comments, you claim to be telling the truth, and thus you have judge your truth to be the right truth.  Unfortunatly, your truth is not - "The Truth".   Your truth is only true to you and some others who agree with your truth. 

The problem Bonnie, is that many do not want the change and accept "The truth".  The devil is a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44), and abode not in the truth,  and God is going to put him in the Lake of fire forever.

We can not afford to abode in untruth.  And we can not afford to believe a lie that a murderer has eternal life abiding in them. The truth is, that no murderer has any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15.

If you wish to continue to believe a lie, this is the free will God has given everyone.  However, I would not suggest that anyone abode in untruth.  Because John 4:24 tells us to worship God in Spirit and in truth.

MM, I don't know where you get your beliefs from.  You say a murderer cannot be forgiven but the Bible says otherwise.

You tell of Satan all the time but you fail to realize that he doesn't want forgiveness.  There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven and it is blapshemy of the Holy Ghost.  This is for those seeking forgiveness.  All sin is unforgiveable if it's not repented of. No sin shall enter heaven.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:31:34

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered.  God punished King David for the evil that he did.  And God did not punish King David for murder.  So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?

I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.

It is because of the different Hebrew words used.  When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death.  But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder

The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel  12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David.  King David was the cause of Uriah's death.  King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !

Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David. 

King David was "Not" a murderer !

Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and  either way  he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.

Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.

everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.

Chosenone

As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves  -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie.  For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.

The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?

Those who say yes, are deceived.  The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them.  None.  There is no forgiveness for murder.

As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah.  But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill

King David did not murder Uriah.  He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed.  In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle.  In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die.  While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.   

Chosenone, this is not murder !   Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not.  In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning.  He is a liar and a murderer.  WE all agree where this liar and  murderer is headed, correct ?

IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?

King David was not a murderer.  Saul was not a murderer.   This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth.  Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife.  If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject.  If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.

We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true.  King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) !   If he did, then God would have put King David to death.  God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David.  What David did was wrong and it was evil.  And God punished David for this evil.  But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.

False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive.  Some have come to believe these false doctorines.  They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them.  It is time for the truth.  And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.

God Bless

Now I understand who you cannot accept King david as a murderer, becuase you believe that murders cannot be forgiven. Of course they can. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible clearly says that. Murder can be forgiven just as rape can be forgiven, or sexual abuse, or adultery or any other awful sin.
So the millions of women who murder their babies by having an abortion cannot be forgiven? So everyone who has murderd someone cannot be forgiven? Many have been and will continue to be forgiven .Where does it say that Jesus paid the price for all henous sins except murder? What about Nicky Cruz who used to be a druggie and gang member who murdered and now works in amazing ways for God? Is he not forgiven? Of course he is. Jesus paid the price for his sins.......all of them.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:21:27

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:31:34

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered.  God punished King David for the evil that he did.  And God did not punish King David for murder.  So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?

I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.

It is because of the different Hebrew words used.  When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death.  But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder

The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel  12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David.  King David was the cause of Uriah's death.  King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !

Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David. 

King David was "Not" a murderer !

Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and  either way  he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.

Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.

everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.

Chosenone

As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves  -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie.  For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.

The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?

Those who say yes, are deceived.  The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them.  None.  There is no forgiveness for murder.

As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah.  But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill

King David did not murder Uriah.  He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed.  In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle.  In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die.  While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.   

Chosenone, this is not murder !   Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not.  In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning.  He is a liar and a murderer.  WE all agree where this liar and  murderer is headed, correct ?

IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?

King David was not a murderer.  Saul was not a murderer.   This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth.  Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife.  If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject.  If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.

We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true.  King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) !   If he did, then God would have put King David to death.  God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David.  What David did was wrong and it was evil.  And God punished David for this evil.  But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.

False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive.  Some have come to believe these false doctorines.  They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them.  It is time for the truth.  And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.

God Bless

Now I understand who you cannot accept King david as a murderer, becuase you believe that murders cannot be forgiven. Of course they can. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible clearly says that. Murder can be forgiven just as rape can be forgiven, or sexual abuse, or adultery or any other awful sin.
So the millions of women who murder their babies by having an abortion cannot be forgiven? So everyone who has murderd someone cannot be forgiven? Many have been and will continue to be forgiven .Where does it say that Jesus paid the price for all henous sins except murder? What about Nicky Cruz who used to be a druggie and gang member who murdered and now works in amazing ways for God? Is he not forgiven? Of course he is. Jesus paid the price for his sins.......all of them.

Chosenone

I John 3:15 - "No murderer"  < None !  hath any eternal life abiding in them" <  Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1.  ( O )  -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ----  ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.

Obviously choseone is correct, again.  I John 3:15 is taken out of context.  One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.

This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.

love,

sopranette

Quote from: sopranette on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again.  I John 3:15 is taken out of context.  One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.

This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.

love,

sopranette

Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.

I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.

But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.

Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?

Quote from: grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.

But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.

Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?

God took his adulterous sons life because of what it says in II Samuel 12:13 & 14

What David did was evil.  And it was worthy of death.  But God would never forgive murder.  And as I have shown, the two different Hebrew words used show us that King David did not commit murder, and God through Nathan never said that he did.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:20

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:21:27

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:31:34

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41

Quote from: Mystery Man on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered.  God punished King David for the evil that he did.  And God did not punish King David for murder.  So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?

I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.

It is because of the different Hebrew words used.  When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death.  But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder

The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel  12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David.  King David was the cause of Uriah's death.  King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !

Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David. 

King David was "Not" a murderer !

Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and  either way  he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.

Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.

everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.

Chosenone

As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves  -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie.  For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.

The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?

Those who say yes, are deceived.  The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them.  None.  There is no forgiveness for murder.

As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah.  But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill

King David did not murder Uriah.  He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed.  In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle.  In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die.  While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.   

Chosenone, this is not murder !   Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not.  In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning.  He is a liar and a murderer.  WE all agree where this liar and  murderer is headed, correct ?

IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?

King David was not a murderer.  Saul was not a murderer.   This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth.  Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife.  If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject.  If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.

We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true.  King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) !   If he did, then God would have put King David to death.  God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David.  What David did was wrong and it was evil.  And God punished David for this evil.  But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.

False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive.  Some have come to believe these false doctorines.  They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them.  It is time for the truth.  And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.

God Bless

Now I understand who you cannot accept King david as a murderer, becuase you believe that murders cannot be forgiven. Of course they can. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible clearly says that. Murder can be forgiven just as rape can be forgiven, or sexual abuse, or adultery or any other awful sin.
So the millions of women who murder their babies by having an abortion cannot be forgiven? So everyone who has murderd someone cannot be forgiven? Many have been and will continue to be forgiven .Where does it say that Jesus paid the price for all henous sins except murder? What about Nicky Cruz who used to be a druggie and gang member who murdered and now works in amazing ways for God? Is he not forgiven? Of course he is. Jesus paid the price for his sins.......all of them.

Chosenone

I John 3:15 - "No murderer"  < None !  hath any eternal life abiding in them" <  Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1.  ( O )  -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ----  ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.

matthew 13.31
Therefore I tell you, EVERY sin and blasphemy can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven.
EVERY sin includes murder. Every means ALL. It doesnt say EVERY sin except murder, it says EVERY SIN.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:20

Chosenone

I John 3:15 - "No murderer"  < None !  hath any eternal life abiding in them" <  Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1.  ( O )  -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ----  ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.

Did David have eternal life in him? Was the Spirit in them or upon them in the Old Testament?

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:43:25

Quote from: sopranette on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again.  I John 3:15 is taken out of context.  One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.

This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.

love,

sopranette

Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.

What I always wondered is why the professor couldn't figure out how to fix the boat.

Quote from: Mere Nick on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:49:22

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:43:25

Quote from: sopranette on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again.  I John 3:15 is taken out of context.  One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.

This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.

love,

sopranette

Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.

What I always wondered is why the professor couldn't figure out how to fix the boat.

I often ponder these questions too. The wife says they have medicine for it, but I prefer to believe it means that I have no "more troublesome" issues to worry about, which is a good thing.

Quote from: grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.

But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.

Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?

Moses committed Murder also and was not punished for it by God.  And God did take a life from David. His son's life. 

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:55:46

Quote from: grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.

But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.

Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?

God took his adulterous sons life because of what it says in II Samuel 12:13 & 14

What David did was evil.  And it was worthy of death.  But God would never forgive murder.  And as I have shown, the two different Hebrew words used show us that King David did not commit murder, and God through Nathan never said that he did.

Muderer's cannot go to Heaven? Killing is not Murder? Two things come to mind in the Word:

1) Thou shalt not kill (does not imply murder, it implies inflicting death on another)
2) Those who have purposed in their heart, to kill another, have already done so. Just like lust is adultery, so is wanting to kill someone actually killing (even if you don't do it yourself).

David, was guilty of "putting a man in a place he might die" because he wanted his sin covered up. Did he stab him? no. Did he order someone to stab him? no. Was it convenient, for David, for him to be stabbed to cover up his own sin? yes.

Do you think God will judge any of the above 3 situations any differently? If you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. The "act" of putting him on the frontlines wasn't the sin...it was the "purpose" of why he was placed there that was the sin.

When God references a murderer not entering Heaven, does He mean anyone who has murdered someone in their entire life...or an unrepentant murderer? God lists many different sinners who "will not inherit the kingdom" so why do we stop at just murder? Perhaps thieves will not inherit either...so if you took a candy as a child, you have sealed your doom.

Quote from: Mere Nick on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:49:22

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:43:25

Quote from: sopranette on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again.  I John 3:15 is taken out of context.  One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.

This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.

love,

sopranette

Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.

What I always wondered is why the professor couldn't figure out how to fix the boat.

Would you have wanted to fix the boat if you had been stranded with Mary Ann?

Quote from: grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:32:01

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:20

Chosenone

I John 3:15 - "No murderer"  < None !  hath any eternal life abiding in them" <  Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1.  ( O )  -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ----  ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.

Did David have eternal life in him? Was the Spirit in them or upon them in the Old Testament?

Here is one of the most interesting questions that I will enjoy answering.  God's master plan from the beginning was that all of mankind be given eternal life.  This came about through the death and resurrection of his Son.  It was  a part of God's master plan.  God has everyone's name in a book of life, and it is only God that can take that name out of the book of life.  So, from the beginning of time God has your name in the book of life.   Your name is not added at any point in time.  It was always there.  The only way your name can be blotted out of the book of life is if God himself blots it out.

God's foreknowledge and master plan gives all of mankind eternal life.  But there are two unforgivable sins.  To blaspheme the Holy Spirit and murder.

Now I have to deal with Matthew 12:31 because some believe that all manner of sin is forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  And even though that is exactly what this verse says.  One needs to search the scriptures to double check for the absolute truth.

Because, in Mark 3:29 it tells us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not have foregiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Verse 28 says - all sins shall be forgiven - "unto the sons of men"

In Luke 12:10 there is no mention of all sins being forgiven.

Those who murder, are considered sons of the devil.  He was a liar and a murder from the beginning.  John 8:44

I Peter 4:15 - suffer not as a murderer.

Rev. 21:8 - "But the fearful , and unbelieving, and the abominabel, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolater, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Rev. 22:15 - "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whatsoever loveth and maketh a lie"

All manner of sins does not include murder.  The key word here is the word "manner".  Its a poor translation.  What it is saying is the same thing that Mark 3:29 is saying.  Sins of the sons of men. Not all "manner" of sins, but sins of sons of men.  But the sins of the sons of the devil are not forgiven.  Those that make lies and murder are the sons of the devil.  

Thus , Mark 3:29 is more accurate and not distorted as Matthew 12:31 is.

Then we have I John 3:15 which tells us that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in him.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:17:48

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:55:46

Quote from: grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.

But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.

Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?

God took his adulterous sons life because of what it says in II Samuel 12:13 & 14

What David did was evil.  And it was worthy of death.  But God would never forgive murder.  And as I have shown, the two different Hebrew words used show us that King David did not commit murder, and God through Nathan never said that he did.

Muderer's cannot go to Heaven? Killing is not Murder? Two things come to mind in the Word:

1) Thou shalt not kill (does not imply murder, it implies inflicting death on another)
2) Those who have purposed in their heart, to kill another, have already done so. Just like lust is adultery, so is wanting to kill someone actually killing (even if you don't do it yourself).

David, was guilty of "putting a man in a place he might die" because he wanted his sin covered up. Did he stab him? no. Did he order someone to stab him? no. Was it convenient, for David, for him to be stabbed to cover up his own sin? yes.

Do you think God will judge any of the above 3 situations any differently? If you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. The "act" of putting him on the frontlines wasn't the sin...it was the "purpose" of why he was placed there that was the sin.

When God references a murderer not entering Heaven, does He mean anyone who has murdered someone in their entire life...or an unrepentant murderer? God lists many different sinners who "will not inherit the kingdom" so why do we stop at just murder? Perhaps thieves will not inherit either...so if you took a candy as a child, you have sealed your doom.

Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !

Quote from: zoonance on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:39:12

Would you have wanted to fix the boat if you had been stranded with Mary Ann?

Excellent point. 

Tell you what, MM. Let's just add to your little list of sins that can't be forgiven. Along with that 1John 3 verse let's use these two from 1Corinthians 6

Quote9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

You see, it's not just blasphemers and murderers that can't be forgiven. None of these people are going to make it either.

What's that? You want me to read the next verse? Oh my, why would I do such a thing? Context, you say? But why should I care about context? These verses say just what I want them to, and you want me to mess that up? Shame on you!

Quote from: Nevertheless on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:19:55

Quote9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

You see, it's not just blasphemers and murderers that can't be forgiven. None of these people are going to make it either.

Well, that pretty much means heaven is going to be a lonley place.

I just want to know one thing....

WHY Mystery man only knows one punctuation mark...  the (!) ...  and why does it always have to be spaced out alone  ? 

What's up with that?  Bugs me.  Is he THAT excited about what he writes?  It's really hard to find people who misuse proper punctuation so much to be believable in what they write.   

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:50:00
Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !

Actually, I believe the exclamation mark belongs inside the ending quote, but hey, marc is the English teacher here, not me. :)

In the UK and I suspect in the uSA also, if someone hires someone else to murder someone for them, they are also charged with murder along with the hit man. Those who put Uriah in the heat of battle were only obeying orders, and those who killed him werre fighting a war. David was the perpetrator of this terroble act, when he should have been in battle with his men anyway instead of sleeping with their wives.
So 2 points here
1) David was responsible for Uriahs death and
2)Murderers can and are forgiven if they repent.

Quote from: kensington on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:17:10

Quote from: grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.

But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.

Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?

Moses committed Murder also and was not punished for it by God.  And God did take a life from David. His son's life. 

good point Kensington, so, Mystery man, does that mean that Moses isnt in heaven either, as well as David not being there (becuase he killed Uriah)? What about those who have killed others in war? Are they not going to heaven either? What about those who have had babies aborted? What about Nicky criz and others who murdered before they saved?
Of course they will all be there if they have accepted jesus as Lord becuaase he forgives ALL sins except the one mentioned in the Bible.

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 12:04:23

Quote from: zoonance on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:39:12

Would you have wanted to fix the boat if you had been stranded with Mary Ann?

Excellent point. 

An excellent point, indeed.  Mary Ann is definitely military, as in Major Babe. 

Quote from: Mystery Man on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:50:00
Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !

What was the cultural definition then of "murder" in those days? Did it have multiple meanings? Was it any death except in times of war?

Quote from: Nevertheless on Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:19:55
Tell you what, MM. Let's just add to your little list of sins that can't be forgiven. Along with that 1John 3 verse let's use these two from 1Corinthians 6

Quote9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

You see, it's not just blasphemers and murderers that can't be forgiven. None of these people are going to make it either.

What's that? You want me to read the next verse? Oh my, why would I do such a thing? Context, you say? But why should I care about context? These verses say just what I want them to, and you want me to mess that up? Shame on you!

Key word - "inherit", which means no inheritance in the kingdom of God.