Christian Forums

or any place really, do we have a understanding laid out on this in scripture, lets look at some verses...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

So can someone explain to me how the Catholic Church can rationalize it or justify bringing idols into churches before its people, how can they claim to follow God and His Word when they worship idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk, how can they allow idols made by man to be put up in their places of worship when the Bible is so clear on this........ am I missing something?

I am not Catholic.  However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols.  A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons.  It can be something as simple as a burning candle.  These are used to focus prayer and worship.  They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics.  They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus. 

When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ.  We are not worshipping the bread and wine.  Catholics use icons in a similar way.

Yes, He does mind.

Jesus said, regarding the Lord's supper, THIS DO in rememberance of me.  So it's not really just actions to help us focus, it's obeying His command.

Just because something has been done for centuries, doesn't mean we are authorized to do so.  Col 3:17 - Do everything in the name of the Lord (which mean by His authority)

We are not authorized to use diet coke instead of wine in the Lord's supper, or to use a sausage instead of bread. 

Likewise we are not authorized to pray/worship using icons. I don't ever remember Jesus or any apostles using candles or anything else when they were praying etc. 

Yes He minds. I won't even keep a 'artist's rendition' of Jesus, or crosses around my house. I don't want any icons of reverence or worship. Now that is a personal decision, and I realize these could be decor items, but I just like to keep it simple and keep them away.

Law taken to the nth degree in the site of man would make a woman or man with tattoos, or body piercing such as earrings abominable. A man with longer hair is a shame, and a women with shorten hair is a tramp. The man must trim his beard just so, and the woman wear no attractive clothing. I reckon you are all just worthless. Some even wear crosses as if that is bearing a cross; think they worship it?

But Romans 5:8 says: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." And there is therefore now no condemnation to those which are in Christ Jesus. Do you realize that there are some that do not eat certain things for the Lord, while there are others that do eat those same things for the Lord, and God says He accepts them both? Are they worshipping the love they're showing the Lord? Has that love turned somehow into idol worship?

Around here many talk of the heart willingness to please God, and well that should be in all our worship, but despising our brethren of another group should not be a part of that. I came out of Catholicism and for some time wondered after reading the Bible why some there still received answer to prayer even as we do outside that system. Who I considered a knowledgeable brother in the Lord told me this: when a Catholic prays to Mary, or a saint, has statues, burns candles and such practices, God is wise enough to know who they are really trying to reach; God does look on the heart and He loves them every bit as much as He does you and I; He died for us all.

Would God have us all to grow in grace and knowledge of Him? Yes, but we are at different stages of growth in our walk with Him as we allow God to work in our lives. We read in Romans 12:2 how that there are three different levels of proving of our transformation from the world, and that is by recognizing "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." You can judge other Christians in their worship if you want to, but I recommend giving your brethren opportunity to grow in grace.

God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry2

Matt 4:7
Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test'"

Not trying to correct those doing things out of line with scripture is not allowing them to grow in grace.  It's putting the Lord your God to the test.

GOOD POST LARRY.  LETS JUST ALL WORSHIP GOD IN LOVE.

Stilts - Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test'"

Not trying to correct those doing things out of line with scripture is not allowing them to grow in grace.  It's putting the Lord your God to the test.

larry2 - Our not judging others to you is putting God to the test? I read in Ephesians 2:10 that we are all God's workmanship, and according to Philippians 2:13  "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." God did it for me, and I have no doubt He loves them just as much.

In Jesus' name - larry2

BTW - Thanks Candy   

I think this is a good question but somewhat off point. Except in the case of the extreme adoration toward Madonna statues and statuettes in some communities, I don't think Catholics as a rule actually worship idols.
For a certainty this form of adoration does exist in South America for instance where people flock from miles around to bow at a statue and offer prayers and sacrifices to it.

The bigger question and a big source of confusion is probably the definition of the term "saint".
A cursory reading of the NT specifically the epistles, make it rather apparent that the meaning and intent of the term as used in the epistles is quite different than the way the Catholic church adopted and uses it.

It seems to me the way the RCC uses the term created spiritual class division where there should be none.
The bible does support sainthood as something designated by men but rather by God by virtue of a person's Salvation and acceptance of Christ.

Quote
Likewise we are not authorized to pray/worship using icons. I don't ever remember Jesus or any apostles using candles or anything else when they were praying etc. 


Where is the authority for praying with heads bowed and eye closed instead of "lifting up holy hands", where is the authority for using doctors instead of having the elders pray and annoint you with oil, where is the authority for a church qwning a church building, having a board of directors to meet legal requirements or any of a hundred other things that groups do??

Larry2
Your stock went up with me about 300%.   

larry2 - Our not judging others to you is putting God to the test?

stilts - I should have been more clear.  

Hebrews 5:9 says
"And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

If we see somebody doing something that is out of line with scriptures (i.e. not obeying), whether it be in regards to salvation/worship/daily life, and we know it to be contrary to the Word of Christ, if we do not lovingly and humbly attempt to correct them, we are putting the love and grace of God to the test.

If we are further along in our growth we should help others "grow in grace and knowledge" by showing them where there actions conflict with scripture.

One example of this is in Titus 2: 3-5 where we see how Paul instructs the older women to teach the younger, "so the word of God may not be reviled".

Quote from: Johnb on Thu May 14, 2009 - 15:02:27
Quote
Likewise we are not authorized to pray/worship using icons. I don't ever remember Jesus or any apostles using candles or anything else when they were praying etc. 


Where is the authority for praying with heads bowed and eye closed instead of "lifting up holy hands", where is the authority for using doctors instead of having the elders pray and annoint you with oil, where is the authority for a church qwning a church building, having a board of directors to meet legal requirements or any of a hundred other things that groups do??

Larry2
Your stock went up with me about 300%.   

I'll work on these....

Doctors - Luke 5:31 - Sick people need a physician.  (At my congregation, one of our members, with cancer, did ask the elders to annoint him with oil - and the elders did it)

Bowing heads - (I know that this is OT) Exodus 4:31

Church buildings - http://bibleanswer.com/buildngs.htm - this pretty well explains my stance.

Board of directors - church organization is addressed in the NT, it is not a board of directors, but should consist of elders and deacons, each with their associated qualifications.

Quote when a Catholic prays to Mary, or a saint, has statues, burns candles and such practices, God is wise enough to know who they are really trying to reach;

I agree in part but does that excuse those who shepherd them? Does that excuse those who teach them? Are they not practicing a form of paganism? Are they not required to know the Word for themselves?

Or are they Saved by grace, yet short circuited in their understanding of the Word and thereby the fruits of their righteousness having been led by the powers that be into maintaining an allegiance to "erroneous" traditions of men?
 

Wasn't Martin Luther correct in being appalled at the practice of indulgences?
God knew the heart of the people but did the indulgences help them?

If I believe in the gospel according to the stars and attempt to reach God through the zodiac or through other means than through Jesus...
....am I safe in assuming God hears my prayers just as much as those who pray in the Name of Jesus?

Long story short doesn't John 14:6 basically sum up the how and why for our Faith
or
is grace a catch all cover for everyone no matter what they practice as long as they say they believe?

If thats the case  JWs and LDS and even Christian Wiccans can be considered  in right standing before God according to your interpretation.
Please explain

Quote from: Johnb on Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic.  However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols.  A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons.  It can be something as simple as a burning candle.  These are used to focus prayer and worship.  They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics.  They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus. 

When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ.  We are not worshipping the bread and wine.  Catholics use icons in a similar way.

I have seen how people put candles on these statues, they also kiss them and bow down to them.  If this is not idol worship then I don't know what idol worship is.

Stilts - It is true that we do not read about churches owning buildings in the NT.
It is equally true that we do not read about churches owning song books or
chairs for its members to sit in while worshipping.

larry2 - I enjoyed Joe Price's answers to you Stilts.

It was common in the early to enter synagogues and talk of God. They had scrolls of the law. They sang, though from memorization or not I know not. Tradition was very common there.

As pertaining to seats, There is Moses' seat mentioned in Matthew 23:2.   

Matthew 23:6  And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
 
Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats:

I do not think a seat is a bad thing, and the older I become, the more attached I seem to be to them.   

Revelation 1:11  "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." All these seven churches were the Church, the body of Christ, but don't you think some may have been meeting places such as the synagogues were to the Jews? 

Stilts - For instance, we NEVER read of the apostles using a bank account to hold and
distribute the collected money for the work of the local church.

larry2 - They used Judas for that for awhile.

Stilts - We should help others "grow in grace and knowledge" by showing them where there actions conflict with scripture. One example of this is in Titus 2: 3-5 where we see how Paul instructs the older women to teach the younger, "so the word of God may not be reviled".

larry2 - Galatians 6:10  "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." And I do see this also as having opportunity as the Holy Spirit leads us. In earlier years I would attempt to convert others to my thinking on the Bible; it simply does not do anything but harm to them if the Holy Spirit has not yet made the opening.

When they are ready, God will send them to you, and then you can be prepared to  as Peter tells us in 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." Many attempt to get the cart before the horse, and it only breeds contempt. We must always do things at the Lord's bidding, and not our own; and then only in love.
 
In Jesus' name - larry2

Hi.

Okay, so I also don't like to have images of Jesus or the apostles or whatever in my house. It's a personal choice that I made after living the life that I did.

And, after having spent so many years in idolatry, I have a real problem with statues being "given" places of distinction, set up in shrines and being bowed down to. Every time I think of the Catholic church, I remember burning candles - in front of the statues - and burning incense - for the statues - and kneeling down - in front of the statues. And I remember this, from Leviticus 26:1 " 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

As for wearing a cross... I have worn a cross (not a crucifix) to remind me of the sacrifice that God made and the price that Jesus paid for me. Not every Christian wears one as a "carrying of their cross".

In earlier years I would attempt to convert others to my thinking on the Bible; it simply does not do anything but harm to them if the Holy Spirit has not yet made the opening.


Yet ....right is still right!

And with that I say thank God Martin Luther called it the way he saw it

otherwise we'd all be participating in the practice of indulgences to save our souls and the souls of our loved ones...among other un biblical things people do as a result of wrong teaching, tradition, religion and culture I hope and pray God truly does overlook.

IMHO I think John 14:6 kind of rules out a lot of things we may want to accept as okay
If not we're kinda of giving the green light of 1 size fits all ...so to speak and speaking for God by saying it's okay...when in fact all we have to go on is what He said!

That opens the door for the doctrine of Universal Salvation

Quote from: gwen on Thu May 14, 2009 - 16:29:10
Hi.

Okay, so I also don't like to have images of Jesus or the apostles or whatever in my house. It's a personal choice that I made after living the life that I did.

And, after having spent so many years in idolatry, I have a real problem with statues being "given" places of distinction, set up in shrines and being bowed down to.

Seems like the right "biblical" choice to me! 

Quote
I'll work on these....

Doctors - Luke 5:31 - Sick people need a physician.  (At my congregation, one of our members, with cancer, did ask the elders to annoint him with oil - and the elders did it)

Bowing heads - (I know that this is OT) Exodus 4:31

Church buildings - http://bibleanswer.com/buildngs.htm - this pretty well explains my stance.

Board of directors - church organization is addressed in the NT, it is not a board of directors, but should consist of elders and deacons, each with their associated qualifications.


I am making an assumtion here if I am wrong feel free to correct me. My assumtion is that you believe that we are guided by commands, examples etc of the NT for the church,

Luke 5:31 is competely out of context.  The only things Christians are told to do when sick is pray and call for the elders.

Yes Exodus is in the OT.  The NT said let men every where pray lifting up holy hands..

Although you may not be aware that it exists to meet legal maters a non profit organization must have a board etc.  It may be the elders or someone else and it is usualy not broad cast because it is a seperate organization to meet legal requirements.

Speaking of Elders what is the authorized procedure for placing one in an official church office.  The only ones I read about in the NT were either chosen by inspired preachers or the Holy Spirit.

See I can be as legalistic as the next guy.

Telling a Catholic that they are worshippng an idol instead of using an icon to focus is like telling someone they were not baptised for the remission of sins.  in both cases that is something that only that individual knows.

I am simply telling you what both the Catholic church and Orthodox church teach concerning religious icons. 

I have a big problem with praying to Mary or to saints. ISTM that is misplaced worship. However, there is a fine line to draw between feeling inspired or focused by an object and worshiping it.

I have this small print in my home. I love it because when I get too full of myself, it reminds me that I might all well have been the one to drive the nails into his hands. I don't worship it - I just appreciate it for what it is. I don't see it as any different than feeling worshipful because I'm out in the glory of God's creation.

Thanks, Johnb.  As an Orthodox Christian, I can affirm that we (and RCC) do not worship icons.  (I know that you are not in our church and don't want to imply that you necessary agree --although maybe someday  )

Another thing to consider is the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which is accepted as true in historical Christianity, specifically dealt with this issue and came out on the side of using icons in worship.

So, if you want to be connected with the historic Christian faith, make room in your heart for using icons or at least appreciate those who do.


Thanks for reading, especially if you disagree.

Johnb - I am making an assumtion here if I am wrong feel free to correct me. My assumtion is that you believe that we are guided by commands, examples etc of the NT for the church,

Stilts - John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" - I love Jesus, therefore, I seek to follow His commands.

trifecta
You are welcome.  Akthough I am not and don't think I will ever be a Catholic or Ortodox.  I still respect their faith.  Actually I have used icons in a small group when we were discussing different methods of prayer and drawing close to God.


Stilts - John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" - I love Jesus, therefore, I seek to follow His commands

How about these commands
Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Let you men pray every where lifting up holy hands,
foot washing
fasting
picking up snakes
drinking poison
just to name a few.  The truth is we all pick and choose the commands we obey.

The topic is slightly off track...the original question was: Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshiped in church?

The clear answer is yes. We are not to worship anything other than God. We should probably make another thread entitled "should we have any spiritual images/statues in our lives"

fanuvmxpx
Good point.  However, ot seems the OP assumed that if there were images or statues present they must be idols and folks must be worshipping them.  Clearly we are not to have idols but many things in life may come closer to being idols than these things in a church.  It was clearly a slam on RRC and O churches.

Quotepicking up snakes, drinking poison

I don't see those 2 as commands but rather something we will be capable of surviving if we happened to experience

For instance Paul was bitten by snakes in Acts 28:3

I tend to see them as symbolically referring to the authority of the believer in overcoming fear and death  ...just a thought

QuoteThe clear answer is yes. We are not to worship anything other than God. We should probably make another thread entitled "should we have any spiritual images/statues in our lives"

Is anyone here familiar with Santeria?

Millions adhere to it, especially in South America and Cuba

In that practice there is a  "veil" relationship between Catholic saints and orisha voodoo gods.

Some participate in the occult aspects of the faith and at the same time consider themselves Catholic

I'm not saying this is Catholicism, just pointing out how it's easy for one thing to turn into something else when you take liberties and move boundaries

I'll let it go at that, it's a little too creepy

gospel

it is strange how you picked out the one commandment and did not touch the others but tried to explain this one away.  In Mark 16 it does not say if or they could or you might but they SHALL pick up .....  That is why there are some groups that pratice this.  Which proves my point that we all see "commands" differently and pick and choose.

If you want to be to be technical, aren't pictures of our loved ones images?

Exodus 20:4  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
 
In Jesus' name - larry2

Quote from: Johnb on Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic.  However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols.  A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons.  It can be something as simple as a burning candle.  These are used to focus prayer and worship.  They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics.  They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus. 

When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ.  We are not worshipping the bread and wine.  Catholics use icons in a similar way.

Yup.

Roman Catholics normally use statues. Eastern Orthodox love icons. The Episcopal Church down by the river prefers icons as well.

I have a statue of St. Francis in the backyard, under an arbor so there are birds around.
I have a little pewter monk, and a little wooden one on my bookcase.
I have an icon of St. Nicholas (the Saint of Bari, IT) on the bookcase as well.

I don't worship any of them.

The 2nd Commandment of God is about Idolatry. God hates when we give the glory due him to created things. Idolatry, which perhaps is the core sin that leads to all sins, occur when we worship anything other than God. People worship things like money, sex, fame, children, spouse, statues, self, etc., etc. God is a jealous God, and he will not have us to worship something that is infintely beneath him, when we were created to behold jaw-dropping wonder; which occur when we grow in knowledge of Him.

Neither the catholics, Orthodox, HR or myself are worshipping these icons or images.  It is simply a matter of someone telling others what they believe instead of asking what they believe.

Quote from: HRoberson on Thu May 14, 2009 - 21:17:17

Quote from: Johnb on Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic.  However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols.  A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons.  It can be something as simple as a burning candle.  These are used to focus prayer and worship.  They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics.  They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus. 

When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ.  We are not worshipping the bread and wine.  Catholics use icons in a similar way.

Yup.

Roman Catholics normally use statues. Eastern Orthodox love icons. The Episcopal Church down by the river prefers icons as well.

The Episcopal Church uses icons, what type/kind as I had not heard that?