Christian Forums

Quote from: wayne on Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 14:43:06
hi there. what i said is a matter of history. but history dont blame satan for anything. but god does. feel free to pick anything out that i said and refute it.  wasnt rome the seat of persecution? is that false? isnt rome the seat of catholicism? let me know if thats not true. didnt your wonderful church forbid people from reading the bible? well, didnt it? didnt it kill bible believers? tell me where im wrong. this is history, a history you would like to go away. say mr defender of your faith, why dont you find another faith that you dont have to defend? pick one, any one. even JWs would be easier to defend than the bloody church of rome

Well, it has been my experience that when someone is unable to refute Catholic doctrine, the next thing that is usually brought up is the history of the Catholic Church.  First, let's correct some points here...

The Vatican is not located in Rome.....

The Catholic Church has never forbid people to read the Bible.  As a matter of fact, after the fall of the western part of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church was the only stable institution in Western Europe, often responsible for building libraries and running schools.  It wasn't that people were forbidden to read the Bible, many in Europe, especially during the Middle Ages, many people just couldn't read and write during this time.  Scripture was mainly written in Latin and Latin became a dead language after the fall.

I will stop here because it is obvious that you know absolutely nothing about history.  As a historian and teacher of history, the first cardinal rule is to never judge history through your own eyes using current values and judgements.  There was a time when things were less civilized as they are today.

The only thing that you have really proven is that the Catholic Church is full of sinners.  Wow, what a shocker!  Are you telling me that many have abused their power and committed sinful acts within the Catholic Church and faith?  I have to sit down for this...thank you for telling me something I didn't know.  It amazes me that the Church as survived for 2000 years, despite stumbles and missteps along the way.  I can say the same for some of my Protestant and Orthodox brethren as well.  Should we talk about the slaughter of millions of Catholics throughout history as well?  None of this is a reflection on the doctrines and beliefs of the Church, which have stood the test of time.

Let me know when you come up with something a little more substantial.

The catholic church never forbade reading the bible.. it just forbade the translation of the bible into the vernacular.  The Pope (and he was right to a certain extent) was afraid if it was translated into the vernacular it could be used like a wax nose to look and mean anything the particular reader wanted it to say.

Quote from: Tantor on Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 15:08:05
The catholic church never forbade reading the bible.. it just forbade the translation of the bible into the vernacular.  The Pope (and he was right to a certain extent) was afraid if it was translated into the vernacular it could be used like a wax nose to look and mean anything the particular reader wanted it to say.

hi, the palace where the ceasars sat is the same place as the vatican. if the vatican isnt in rome, where is it. when i was in rome, i went to see the vatican. here is some stuff from the constitution of oxford, a vatican or catholic council proclaiming laws......That no one can preach without a licence. II. On the punishment for those preaching without a licence in a church or cemetery or other place. III. That the preacher must conform or be punished. IV. Of the penalties for preaching on the sacraments of the altar and other sacraments against the Church's teaching. V. That no teacher with only an MA or BA instruct children about the sacraments. VI. That no book or treatise of John Wyclif may be read, before it is examined. VII. That no text of Holy Scripture may be translated into English. VIII. That no one join those opposed to these conclusions, propositions and good customs. IX. That no one may question the Articles Holy Church determines. X. That no chaplain may celebrate in the Canterbury Archdiocese without testimonial letters. XI. That at the University of Oxford an inquisition should be held each month concerning these principles. XII. Of the penalties for countering these. XIII. Of the procedures to be followed in such cases.

yep, the pope at that time forbid the bible to be trans into english. i can dig further and find more where vatican forbids bible to the people. im not saying protestant crimes are less. im not protestand, so i dont have to appologize for them.

The burning of heretics was first decreed in the eleventh century. The synod of Verona ( 1184 ) imposed on bishops the duty to search out heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power. Other synods and the fourth Lateran Council (1215), under Pope Innocent III, repeated and enforced this decree, especially the synod of Tolouse (1229) which established inquisitors in every parish (one priest and two laymen-O.C.L.). Every one was bound to denounce heretics, the names of witnesses were kept secret; after 1243, when Innocent IV sanctioned the laws of Emperor Frederick II and of Louis IX against heretics, torture was applied in trials; the guilty persons were delivered up to the civil authorities and actually burnt at the stake . . . The present pope, Pius X (1909), has decreed the establishment in every diocese of a board of censors and of a vigilance committee whose functions are to find out and report on writings and persons tainted with the heresy of Modernism" (Catholic Encyclopedia, VII, 260 ).

FORMER CATHOLIC: Once Rome sanctioned the apparitions of "Mary", demonic activity increased immensely, leading millions of Catholics to flock to places such as Fatima, Lourdes, Guatalupe and every other possible "sighting of Mary" looking for some sign of hope. The doctrines coming from these apparitions clearly are the doctrines of devils, teaching such things as:

"We must make sacrifice for sins. Many souls are in hell because there is no one to make sacrifice for them".


This is an open attack on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for our sins. One apparition of Mary to "Sister" Agnus Sasagawa, of Akita, Japan, said:

"I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved."

Rome has also led her people into seeking after "saints" that did not exist, such as "St." Christopher and "St." Bridgit.

David, you also mention the sexual sin that is so prevalent in the Roman Catholic priesthood. 1Tim.4:1 tells us that it is a Doctrine of Devils to forbid marriage. When Roman Catholicism accepted this as doctrine for themselves, they opened the door for all kinds of sexual abuse. In more than one incident throughout its vile history, the priest has used the confessional to seduce and destroy young and old women, married and single. Some have used the confessional to seek out the weakest child who then finds himself controlled and/or molested by his confessor.

hey, you need any more concrete stuff? dont worry ,theres plenty.

When speaking of the immorality of the popes, Peter De Rosa, in his book, Vicars of Christ: the Dark Side of the Papacy, paints a not-so-pretty picture of their true face:

"...among the popes were a large number of married men, some of whom gave up their wives and children in exchange for the papal office. Many were sons of priests, bishops and popes; some were bastards; one was a widower, another an ex-slave; several were murderers, some unbelievers; some were hermits, some heretics, sadists and sodomites; many became popes by buying the papacy (simony), and continued their days selling holy things to rake in the money; one at least was a Satan-worshipper; some fathered illegitimate children, some were fornicators and adulterers on a grand scale; some were astonishingly old, some even more astonishingly young; some were strangled; worst of all were those who worshipped a granite God" (30).

Rome's boast that she is "holy" evaporates in the face of history. Her impure and abominable acts cannot be rivaled even by the most corrupt pagan societies.

papal infallibility, whoops dere it is

FORMER CATHOLICS FOR CHRIST: The priesthood of Rome instills a great deal of pride in its "little Levites". Perhaps it would be best to let Rome speak for herself on this matter:

"The priest is a storm: hurricane, cyclone, tornado rolled into one. Like Christ in the temple. Like Christ before the Pharisees. Like Christ hanging on the cross...No, He is more than that. The Priest is not just the cross, he is Christ Himself" (Lone Star Catholic, "Father" Brigante, March 1, 1959).

"...glorious priests...oracles of the Eternal Word...chiefs in the celestial militia...custodians of the Keys of heaven" (The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, "St." John Eudes, XXV).

"To the carnal eye, the priest looks like other men, but to the eye of faith, he is exalted above angels" (Faith of our Fathers, Gibbons; 442) 

I'm not sure where you went to see wayne, but you got some very wrong info.  The "Caesars" did not sit where the Vatican is.  Imperial Rome and the Caesars seat of government is across the Tiber in Rome.  We say the Church in Rome as an expression.  The Vatican is not in Rome because it is a completely separate country from Italy.  The Vatican State is it's own country and has nothing to do with the city of Rome or the Italian republic.  All Christians should honor the place of the Vatican.  St. Peter's is where it is because the "Circus Vaticinus" right in front of it is where hundreds of Christians were martyred for the faith by the pagan Romans.  St. Peter himself was tortured and murdered in front of the Emperor there.  His body, as with many of the Christian faithful, was taken to the many underground caves or catacombs, that Christians had dug underneath the gardens located near there on Vatican hill.  Underneath St. Peter's today is the graves of hundreds of our honored dead.  St. Peter is also believed by many to be buried there.  Holy Eucharist was celebrated using their sarcophagi as alters.  To this day, in every Catholic Church around the world, a bit of bone or a lock of hair, from a martyr for the faith is embedded in the alter.

"God deigns to make prelates His own equals...If then, you receive a command of one who holds the place of God, you should observe it with the same diligence as if it came from God Himself" (True Spouse of Christ, Liguori, 93).

"Thus priests are gods in power. O power and dignity of the priesthood which surpasses all the powers of heaven and earth, second only to the ineffable dignity of the Mother of God" (The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, John Eudes, 177).

"St. Gregory Nazianzen asserts that the priest is a 'God who makes gods'." (The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, 13).

Catholic author, Omar Englebert, in his book, Catherine Laboure and the Modern Apparitions of Our Lady, page 237, we read:

"This is a truth upon which she [Mary] most often insists: . I am the mistress of my Son. s heart; He loves me so much that He can refuse me nothing.. So she said at Pellevoisin. And at La Salette she declared; . Ah, if you knew what it costs me to withhold his [Jesus] avenging arm.. It is costly; she must sometimes plead, but in the end she always prevails. Her prayers are infallible because there is no saint in heaven she prays as she does and because He to whom she prays is her Son." [This lie defames the Lord Jesus Christ more than just about any other of which I can think! To say that Mary can persuade Jesus to not punish someone is to simultaneously admit that the person is guilty, and admitting that Jesus' decision is imperfect. If His original decision to punish were perfect, then Mary would have no say in the matter, and most definitely could not persuade Him otherwise. So, this teaching that Mary acts to prevent Jesus' punishment is saying that Jesus Christ is imperfect. If Jesus is imperfect, He is not the God of the Bible, because Absolute Perfection is one of His many attributes. James 1:25; Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 18:30.

want more? here , have some more

Quote from: desertknight on Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 16:40:04
I'm not sure where you went to see wayne, but you got some very wrong info.  The "Caesars" did not sit where the Vatican is.  Imperial Rome and the Caesars seat of government is across the Tiber in Rome.  We say the Church in Rome as an expression.  The Vatican is not in Rome because it is a completely separate country from Italy.  The Vatican State is it's own country and has nothing to do with the city of Rome or the Italian republic.  All Christians should honor the place of the Vatican.  St. Peter's is where it is because the "Circus Vaticinus" right in front of it is where hundreds of Christians were martyred for the faith by the pagan Romans.  St. Peter himself was tortured and murdered in front of the Emperor there.  His body, as with many of the Christian faithful, was taken to the many underground caves or catacombs, that Christians had dug underneath the gardens located near there on Vatican hill.  Underneath St. Peter's today is the graves of hundreds of our honored dead.  St. Peter is also believed by many to be buried there.  Holy Eucharist was celebrated using their sarcophagi as alters.  To this day, in every Catholic Church around the world, a bit of bone or a lock of hair, from a martyr for the faith is embedded in the alter.

yes my good friend, and christians are dying in front of the vatican. the named just changed. the funtion of the vatican is the same as the ceasars. to wipe out followers of christ. you are getting closer my friend, to the truth of the matter. my point is that the holy spirit does not direct the catholic church as they claim. its absurd to believe that in the light of past history and the daily news. money laundering, pedophiles, drug runing jesuits, cover ups, and yes, the jesuits still kill people that get in their way. they even killed a pope not long ago who tried to disband the jesuits. society of jesus. ha. catholic trick. give big holy names to the most vile of orgaizations. holy office,....ha, that office ran the murder of millions.. holy office, give me a break. but you my friend, you must believe its holy. more poewr to you.

Quote from: broach972 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 20:35:57

Quote from: desertknight on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 20:17:41
The reason I stopped posting here for awhile is that you can only discuss something with someone who's views are in the realm of reality.  I can totally understand why Protestants, who are informed, believe as they do, even though I disagree with it, but when you start hearing about the most bizarre things regarding the Catholic Church, and you encounter people who perpetually state things about the Catholic Church that are just plain erroneous;  that are not only not Catholic belief, but are beliefs that would get a Catholic excommunicated, and yet, when corrected, they still insist that those beliefs are real or you run across their posts later, and sure enough, they are posting the same old rot again as if they had never been corrected, then what do you do?  You just scratch your head and go on with life...

We have a winner....

Unfortunately, I reached this point a long time ago.  I just scratch my head and go on with life.  However, I do get a kick out of much that is written here, so I make it a point to visit from time to time.  Sometimes, it is better than going to the movies.

It does get interesting!  stuff hollywood dreams of.

FORMER CATHOLICS FOR CHRIST: Yes David, I agree totally. Rome is notorious for forbidding her people to read their Bibles, and if by some chance they should, then they are warned not to interpret them. Rome, however, interprets her behavior a little a bit differently:

"It is said that we deprive the Faithful of the word of God, which is the soul's daily bread. We may answer this falsehood by stating that while, indeed the Scripture is our soul's daily bread, Mother Church proportions it to our needs. Just as parents do not give the whole loaf to their children, or a knife with which to cut it lest they injure themselves, so it is the duty of the Church, of the priest or the preacher, to distribute this spiritual bread of the word of God to the people in portions suited to their requirements. It is said that the word of God is the light of the world. Well, indeed do we admit this truth. But we do not place a lighted candle in a child's hands, lest he burn himself" (The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, "St." John Eubes, 99).

"From all of which it must be abundantly clear that the Bible alone is not a safe and competent guide because it is not now and has never been accessible to all, because it is not clear and intelligible to all, and because it does not contain ALL THE TRUTH of the Christian religion" (Finding Christ's Church, John A. O'Brien, p. 20). [How surprised this priest will be when Jesus reminds him at the White Throne Judgment of His words to His disciples. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:" -- John 16:13. Once again Catholic doctrine calls Jesus Christ a liar! -- David Bay]


More than this, parts of the Bible are evidently unsuited to the very young or to the ignorant, and hence Clement XI condemned the proposition that the reading of Scripture is for all. These principles are fixed and invariable but the discipline of the Church with regard to the reading of the Bible in the vulgar tongue (language of the people) has varied with varying circumstances" (Catholic Dictionary, Addis & Arnold, 82).

"Through Luther, although Calvin seems to have been the first to announce Monobiblicism clearly, the Bible became the arm of the Protestant revolt. A DUMB AND DIFFICULT book was substituted for the living voice of the Church, in order that each one should be able to make for himself the religion which suited his feelings. And the Bible opened before every literate man and woman to interpret for themselves was the attractive bait used to win adherents" (Catholic Commentary, 11). [Wonderful. Now Catholicism calls the Holy Bible a "dumb and difficult book". Could Satan be any more pleased by this official denunciation of God's Word? -- David Bay, Cutting Edge Ministries]


want some more? or have you had enough? it only gets worster

here you go mr defender of your faith. no, the vatican would never forbid people to read the bible. remember, these catholic councils are binding, infallable and gods own edicts, as per the catholic church......FORMER CATHOLICS FOR CHRIST: Yes David, like I said before, Rome fears men reading for themselves and learning. The Council of Trent (as recorded in Decrees of the Council of Trent, Schroeder) states:

"...if the sacred books are permitted everywhere...in the vernacular, there will, by reason of the boldness of men, arise there from, more harm than good"(273-278).

It is Rome. s stand that God uses the teaching magesterium alone to interpret the word of God.

Defender, you muct crack ope your bible more often. the holy ghost does not recommend that. he has given us the word to read and learn. the holy spirit teaches us all things, according to bible. vatican says no, we teach you all things. vatican is anti christ in all its teachings. come out of her my friends

 

Extracts from Liguoris' "The Glories of Mary"
This is a very popular Roman Catholic book, many editions having been published, fully approved by the Church, and especially recommended by the cardinals Wiseman and Manning. Quotations are from the sixth edition, Spanish, Paris, 1883:

"She (Mary) is . . . the only hope of sinners (p. 69). In Judea, in olden times, there were cities of refuge, in which the criminals who there sought refuge were exempted from the punishment they merited. These cities are not now so numerous: there is only one, and this is Mary (p. 407).

"No one can be so suitable as Mary to detain with her hand the sword of Divine justice, preventing it from striking sinners. Before Mary came to the world, God lamented that there was no one to detain Him in the punishment of sinners; but the Virgin having been born, she appeases Him (p. 72).

"We will be heard and saved sooner by going to Mary, and invoking her holy name, than that of Jesus our Savior. We will find salvation sooner going to the mother than going to the Son (p. 82).

this blasphemy is worse that fleecing the flock of money. practicing and believe the above will keep you from salvation.  so a church that teaches this kind of antichrist message is above selling pergatory cards? desert my friend, get out while you have a chance.

VIII. Misunderstanding about Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her "not until")
Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her "not until ("heos", in Greek)" she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove "not until" means "not up to the point that":

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world." This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert "up to the point of his manifestation to Israel." Not John "was in the desert until after" his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow "up to the point that" she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, "take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool." Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 - "up to the point that I come," attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing "until after" I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth "up to the point that" [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won't leave Jacob "up to the point that" he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but "up to the point of today" no one knows Moses' burial place. This does not mean that "they did not know place until today."

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul's daughter Micah was childless "up to the point" [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

peace, papist